European (Tea)Cup - League A - Basel vs Paris Zoo & Menagerie

[TeaLovingDave]

This one will, I think, be quite a hard-fought match - both of the contenders have a lot to offer in this category I feel, and as this is the debut for both in the Cup they have a lot to prove!

As usual, how you interpret the category of HOOFSTOCK is up to you but remember that the overall standard of the discussion very much relies on explanation, discussion and debate!

 

[twilighter]

Hmm. Gaurs, Lovely Caprine collection ,Anoa and Przewalski's in the center of Paris + one of the biggest Kordofan Giraffe breeding herds roaming around spectacular Big Rock, Roan antelope and Red Lechwe/White Rhino/Grevy's Savanna at Vincence.

Basel on the other side has renoveted Elephant House, Classic Antelope house with breeding success of Okapi and Lesser Kudu. And the whole Zoo World owns the Indian Rhino to this institution.

The two Paris zoos have stronger collection, but Basel has a lot to offer, as well.

I will start with 3-2 for French capital, because of my love to Gaurs. As a studbook keeper, they didn't gave up on the species and we will have a chance to see those magnificent animals in Europe, longer than expected.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Although I've gone with a 3-2 Paris vote to begin with, I'm definitely borderline between here and a 3-2 Basel vote ; as such I look forward to seeing people's arguments for both contenders, as I think there's a lot of scope for me to be either locked-into Paris or converted fully to Basel!

 

[amur leopard]

Interesting match - this is one of the menagerie's great strengths collection-wise for sure, but I haven't been to Basel so can't really judge too well for now. Can tell you their respective collections though:

Paris (Vincennes + Menagerie) (27)

• Arabian oryx
• Central Chinese goral
• Himalayan blue sheep
• Indian gaur
• Kirk's dik-dik
• Kuban tur
• Lowland anoa
• Negros warty pig
• Red river hog
• Reeves' muntjac
• Sichuan takin
• Southern Vicuna (x2)
• Tajik markhor
• Malayan tapir
• Przewalski's horse
• Grevy's zebra
• South American tapir
• Southern white rhino
• Addax
• Addra gazelle
• Chacoan peccary
• Kordofan giraffe
• Greater kudu
• Guanaco
• Red lechwe
• Roan antelope
• Southern pudu

Basel (15)

• African elephant (assuming this counts?)
• Grant's zebra
• Indian rhinoceros
• Somali wild ass
• Black sable antelope
• Wild boar
• European mouflon
• Hippopotamus
• Kordofan giraffe
• Negros warty pig
• Okapi
• Plains buffalo
• Reeves' muntjac
• Southern lesser kudu
• Western pygmy hippopotamus

Here's a rundown of what Paris has in this category.

Menagerie

(Przewalski's horse exhibit) @Austin the Sengi

(Negros warty pig) @Austin the Sengi

(Indian gaur exhibit) @twilighter

(Bharal exhibit) @twilighter

Not the greatest exhibits, but for the most part I don't think they're awful either. This part of the zoo does have a very pleasant historical atmosphere to it, however - in fact more so than Schoenbrunn in my opinion.

Worth mentioning excellent breeding records with a number of these species, particularly Arabian oryx of late.

Vincennes

Much better in terms of exhibit quality, and also has some conservation pedigree, with almost the entire Kordofan giraffe population originating here, plus an excellent record with Okapi and Asian elephants (both no longer held).

(African savanna, with Kordofan giraffe, Addra gazelle and Greater kudu - this is about a third to half of it) @SivatheriumGuy

(Addax exhibit) @SivatheriumGuy

(Part of White rhino, Grevy's zebra, Red lechwe exhibit)

(Roan antelope exhibit) @SivatheriumGuy

(Tapir and Capybara exhibit) @SivatheriumGuy

(Chacoan peccary exhibit) @SivatheriumGuy

(Southern pudu exhibit) @SivatheriumGuy

(About a third of Vicuna mixed exhibit)

 

[lintworm]

As a studbook keeper, they didn't gave up on the species and we will have a chance to see those magnificent animals in Europe, longer than expected.

To be fair until recently the sole reason for the Gaur EEP to exist was to phase them out and Paris (and Obterre) did not breed them anymore. Only Cabarceno and Zlin ignored the phase out and will probably be to thank that this species still has a future in Europe...

with almost the entire Kordofan giraffe population originating here, plus an excellent record with Okapi and Asian elephants (both no longer held).

Nearly half of the Kordofan giraffe founders were in Antwerp, so that statement is not true. I would also disregard the record that the zoo has with species they no longer keep... If you stick to ungulates either Basel or Paris still has, Basel would beat Paris being pivotal in establishing Somali wild ass on the continent, as well as the excellent breeding record of greater one-horned rhino and the long and very successful history with pygmy hippo and lesser kudu.

Paris doesn't really shine in this category. I don't think any of the ungulate exhibits in the Menagerie is particularly convincing for their inhabitants, with basically all of them being on the small side of acceptable, but it is undeniably a lovely looking setting. The Zoo in Vincennes also didn't convince me for the most part, with some enclosures being fairly small too (tapir & peccary come to mind). The star is undeniably the large giraffe enclosure shared with greater kudu and mhor gazelle (and pinioned birds, so Paris is lucky they don't count for this category...).

But Basel has problems of it's own, as you will see:

The pygmy hippo exhibit is very nicely landscaped, but upon closer inspection it is tiny. Structure cannot always compensate for lack of space:

Next to the pygmy hippo is a well-structured enclosure for greater one-horned rhino, which is shared with muntjac & Visayan warty pig:

The architecturally wonderful antelope house houses Kordofan giraffe in the middle and okapi & lesser kudu to the sides:

The outdoor enclosures for all 3 species are on the small side, with 2 okapi enclosures:

For the giraffes:

(this shows only a part, there is no picture showing the whole enclosure)

The best enclosure here is for the lesser kudu:

Enclosure for sable antelope:

Somali wild ass:

Enclosure for Grant's zebra & ostrich:

When weather allows the common hippo use this enclosure (pool is quite large too) at night, leaving them plenty of land space.

The adjacent common hippo exhibit:

There are no pictures of the American bison & wild boar exhibits in the gallery, both have simple, but spacious enough exhibits in a secluded woody corner of the zoo:

The elephant enclosure is among the newest in the zoo. Basel style it is not particularly large, but especially outdoors it is well structured with feeding stations all over the place:

@Philipine eagle

So while not the strongest category for Basel, it is not a particular weak point either. But Paris has enough to offer too. I am not sure which 3-2 is the best way to vote, as it is a fairly close match.

 

[Kalaw]

Have visited both Paris zoos, but never Basel. Strangely, even though I visited them both at the same time, my memory of Vincennes is very vivid while that of JdP is something of a blur - I suspect it was because I rushed my visit to the latter collection. Needed to look at the gallery to refresh my mind there.

Basel looks to have some real strengths here. I am particularly impressed by the grassiness of the hippo enclosure and the size of the pool, as well as the Antelope House's architectural marvel, and what appears to be a wonderfully designed elephant enclosure despite spatial constraints; proof if any was needed that small zoos can still maintain elephants. And if their work with Indian Rhinos is as significant as twilighter suggests, then that is another plus.

But to be honest, I think Paris is just slightly stronger in this category, probably one of their few genuine strengths (to be honest, when I first saw they made the cut, I wouldn't have been surprised if they went six defeats for six as they seemed considerably weaker than the competition). Not only is their collection far larger than Basel's, but it is also more appealing, with one of the largest and best rosters of caprines on the continent, as well as Chacoan Peccary, Malayan Tapir and of course the gaur, one of the most impressive and rarely kept ungulate species, and one for which Pari is the studbook holder. The zoo's work with Kordofan Giraffe is very impressive, as is being able to see a whole herd of them in front of the historic 'Great Rock.' And of course, a few of the historic stables at JdP are equally excellent in terms of offering scenic backdrops, though unfortunately they seem to have lost what I considered to be the most charming and attractive enclosure in this category, the fallow deer lawn which could be observed from outside of the zoo, in the beautiful botanical gardens that surround it. While most of the enclosures are reasonably average (all four African paddocks and the sprawling Vicuna paddock at Vincennes being exceptions, I would argue, although lintworm is right that the savannahs are only exceeding in this category because the pinioned birds don't count), there is nothing truly bad in the same sense as Basel's pygmy hippo enclosure appears to be (although difficult to judge quite how small it is with photos as quite a bit seems to be obscured by bamboo).

Overall, a close matchup which, for me, Paris is just ahead in. 3-2 Paris for me.

 

[Dassie rat]

There are 3 listed animals found at Basel and Paris. This leaves 24 listed animals at Paris and 12 at Basel. All occur at more than 10 ZSL collections.

I'm going to score this Paris 3 Basel 2

 

[twilighter]

Who doesn't like Ungulate Wars
Since it is a so close battle, I will also try to share some first hand experience.
Basel First:

Rhino/Warty Pig exhibit




Pygmy Hippo:


Elephant House

 

[twilighter]

Antelope House


Lesser Kudu


Giraffe


Okapi

 

[twilighter]

Common Hippo/ Grant Zebra





Zebra Stables with Hippo indoor exhibit


Common and Pygmy Hippo exhibits are most likely the weakest points of the Hoofed collection


Sable Antelope


Somali Wild Ass ( under construction on my visit )


Wild Boar


American Bison


Muflon

 

[twilighter]

Paris Zoos are focusing on different Biomes and Continents and work with entirely different species.

Zoo Vincennes focus are Sudan- Sahel, Patagonia and Amazonia-Guyana, Europe and Madagascar.

Kordofan Giraffe / Greater Kudu / Mhor Gazelle












Roan Antelope



White Rhino/ Grevy's Zebra / Red Lechwe

 

[twilighter]

Paris Zoo II

Addax


Lowland Tapir


Chaco Peccary


Vicuna


Missing Pudu exibit picture

 

[twilighter]

Jardin Des Plantes is focusing mainly on Asia and Australia

Kirk's Dik Dik




Bharal


One of two similar size Indian Gaur exhibit. They had 3 male and one female on my visit.




Przewalski's horse



Chinese Goral




Kuban Tur




Malayan Tapir



Vicuna - the only ungulate seen at the both zoos

 

[oflory]

I really like both of the contenders here, Basel was the first zoo that I visited that I was consciously excited by the exhibitry, and I have been to the two Paris collections multiple times.

I appreciate that the enclosures at the Menagerie are really only adequate, but what charm they have! The collection is unusual and interesting across the two zoos.

Basel has a real claim here with the greater one-horned rhinos, though. A very close 3/2 to Paris here, for me.

 

[twilighter]

Jardin Des Plantes II

Arabian Oryx



Someone mentioned that the Transcaspian Urials are still at the Zoo, but I am not sure.



Sichuan Takin



Reeves' Muntjac


Lowland Anoa


Visian Warty Pig



Markhor

 

[Philipine eagle]

Very difficult; Gaurs vs both hippos, greater vs lesser kudu, roan vs black sable, okapi vs anoa, that's all very tight and in balance, even for the architecture: the antelope house versus that big rock in Vincennes that dominates the scenery

The enclosures are perhaps just a little nicer in Basel than in Paris, but then again they are a little too small. The rhinos only have 1, and with 5 animals, it's a bit overcrowded. .

3:2 in favor Paris, because of both tapir species, mountain ungulates and chaco peccary.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

To be fair until recently the sole reason for the Gaur EEP to exist was to phase them out and Paris (and Obterre) did not breed them anymore. Only Cabarceno and Zlin ignored the phase out and will probably be to thank that this species still has a future in Europe...

Indeed so in theory anyone who is torn between Basel and Paris and is inclined to give special weighting to the fact that Gaur are a highly-unusual species for which Paris hold the studbook should really be deducting points from Paris, not giving points *to* them!

I've switched my vote to Basel in any case - its a knife-edge vote and neither collection really deserves anything as heavily-weighted as even a 3/2 vote in their favour, so the best way to ensure a fairer result overall is to balance out the heavy groundswell of support for Paris.... and in any case, having visited all three collections in question within a short span of time last May, I definitely enjoyed the hoofstock enclosures at Basel (both in design and overall "feel") more than I did those at either Paris collection.

 

[twilighter]

Indeed so in theory anyone who is torn between Basel and Paris and is inclined to give special weighting to the fact that Gaur are a highly-unusual species for which Paris hold the studbook should really be deducting points from Paris, not giving points *to* them!

One of the reasons behind the Gaur phase-out decision was luck of interest, given how hard is to maintain this species. As far as I know Aude Bourgeois ( the Jardin Des Plantes Studbook keeper) personally tried hard to convince more institutions to keep the Gaur in Europe, before the EAZA made the decision . The last babies in Paris and Obtere were born 2018 and 2019, I believe. The discussion about Gaur's fate never stopped and most likely the meeting between AZA and EAZA Cattle and Camelid TAG groups in 2024 changed the wind direction.

I salute Zlin director, who was bold enough to challenge EAZA on this matter, and I am not sure what is the final decision on this casus (I am looking forward to the EAZA 2024 TAG Report).

But being myself a part of big corporative machine, it is very hard to believe that such a serious political decision (given the importance of the Wild Indonesia Banteng/Anoa campaign) was made without involvement and influence of Aude Bourgeois.

 

[lintworm]

and I am not sure what is the final decision on this casus (I am looking forward to the EAZA 2024 TAG Report).

Given that Zoo Berlin acquired a new male last year, it seems fair to say that the final decision was to restart the program.

As regards to this match, I will stick with Basel 3, Paris 2. I don't want to look too much at collection size, without ignoring it completely. Especially when the contests are so close, I ask myself whether I would rather be an ungulate at either zoo. Looking that way, I think that Basel has higher standards overall (while certainly not perfect) and does as good as a job as it can to keep their ungulates on the available space. On the other hand many Parisian enclosures (especially in the Menagerie) look a bit lacklustre and the climbing opportunities for many caprines, really are quite limited.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

This is yet another case where I have been to one zoo (in this case a pair of zoos) but not the other. I visited the Paris collections in 2023 while on layover on my way back from Kenya. I was exhausted and honestly did not find myself too thrilled with the hoofstock exhibitry at either zoo. I knew, both then and now, the blame for this was largely due to my having spend 5 and a half weeks watching African megafauna on the plains of Africa. Seeing giraffes and zebras at Samburu and then seeing them in a zoo the next day was perhaps not in the best move.

In any case, upon reflection I do find Vincennes to be a good, though not outstanding zoo for their hoofstock. The collection at the Menagerie is superb, but the enclosures really don't do much for me. They have an aesthetic, sure, but are they the best for their inhabitants?

Still, Paris pulls its weight. Basel, which I have not visited, looks to be a much better zoo for hoofstock from an enclosure standpoint (though still not perfect). Their history with Somali Wild Ass might push me over the edge in the end, as much as I adore Gaur. They're both working with Kordofan Giraffe as well, but Paris has the better habitat for them. From what @twilighter describes, they have a deep history with them as well. It's a really close match for me. I find myself biased towards Paris simply because I've been and therefore it's more familiar, but I don't feel confident that I'm not snuffing Basel. I'll remain vote-less for now.

~Thylo