European (Tea)Cup - League A - Zurich vs Vienna

Zurich vs Vienna - CARNIVORES

  • Zurich 5/0 Vienna

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zurich 4/1 Vienna

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Vienna 5/0 Zurich

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
After an extremely close first match in which it narrowly missed out on victory, but nevertheless proved itself to be a strong contender, Zurich gets another chance at glory - this time contending against the oldest zoo in the world, and a collection which already has one victory under its belt - Tiergarten Schönbrunn.

The category this time round is CARNIVORES - I reckon you all know the drill, so lets see where the next few days take us!
 
This round, I suspect, will prove a major demonstration of the impact that the random timing of a given match under a given category can have; at present, the vast majority of the former carnivore diversity at Zurich has been lost due to the extensive redevelopments which have been taking place there over the last few years, with the upshot that the collection currently has little to offer in this regard. Had this match and category been randomly-assigned towards the end of the first round rather than less than a third of the way through, the story could have been rather different, as I believe the new big cat complex is due to open (and therefore become valid for consideration in any future matches) towards the end of March.

But as things stand I feel that a 3:2 vote for Vienna is the best that Zurich can legitimately hope for in this category - with the two points resting heavily on the high standard of the spectacled bear exhibit at the latter zoo, which is among the very best in Europe for the species.
 
How unlucky Zurich can be to catch Vienna without the Giant Pandas, and to arrive on the battlefield almost emptihanded... Even with their old Asian Lion, Snow Leopard and Mongolian Wolf area Zurich would have strong chances to win...I will start with 3:2 for Vienna, but considering that they also have great Spectacled Bear exhibit, I'm leaning to 4:1. Vienna can add also stellar Dwarf Mongoose, Polar Bear and Wolf exhibits, but some of their Big Cats accommodations are more weaknesses rather than strengths.
 
A real misfortune for Zürich, with five species including what is possibly the world’s greatest Snow Leopard enclosure all temporarily absent from the zoo (although I believe the wolves’ departure is intended to be permanent). That said, what is quite possibly the finest enclosure for any tropical bear species in the world in Sangay Bergenebelwald (Spectacled Bears and South American Coatis), the solid Spotted Hyena enclosure and very charming Eurasian Otter display, an attractive repurposing of a decidedly less attractive brutalist building, coupled with the fact that Vienna seems to have a few blemishes in this category are (although the same can be said for Zürich with the rather mediocre Harbour Seal pool) in my opinion, enough to earn two consolation points. 3-2 Vienna at the moment, but baring in mind that I haven’t visited the Austrian collection yet, I may well be persuaded to switch to 4-1 later.
 
This will be very hard for Zurich to win, with only a few enclosures that qualify: spectacled bears, European otters, harbour seals, meerkat & spotted hyena. The meerkt and hyena enclosure are good and the bear enclosure is spectacular, the other 2 are more standard affairs.

Vienna has some really good enclosures in this category (spectacled bears and dwarf mongoose come to mind), but also a few that are too small in my opinion like lions and South American sea lions. Overall the weaknesses are not big enough for Zurich to have any real chance though and I am leaning closer to 4-1 Vienna than 3-2.
 
Having never been to Zurich, and only to Vienna several years ago now, I think I follow the consensus here of going for 3/2 in favour of Vienna.
 
Zürich will deservedly not be winning this, but I thought I would provide an overview of their (very limited) offerings in the hope of convincing others that they do deserve two points despite the small collection at the moment, having done some more research on Vienna and feeling fairly comfortable about my conclusion.

Spectacled Bears:

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@Kalaw

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@antonmuster

This is quite possibly the finest enclosure for tropical bear species in the world, certainly in an urban zoo. I often hear it compared to the one at Chester, but having seen both in person I firmly believe that this is the superior of the two. It is huge, with five different viewing points (yet no cross-viewing), mature tree cover, undulating terrain, multiple large climbing apparatus, and no obvious barriers in sight, with a beautiful moat in front and a rock wall behind. I have heard that it is actually three enclosures (which is of course of massive benefit in terms of separation options), but I only discovered this recently as there was no evidence of any dividing fencing on my visit, such is the excellence of the landscaping and the strategic placement of viewing areas.

Eurasian Otter:

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@Kalaw

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@Philipine eagle

The otter enclosure, along with the small adjacent native species aquarium, is one of Zürich's hidden gems in my eyes. Like most of the older buildings at Zürich, it is a rather unpleasant brutalist structure, and yet one that has been rendered very attractive by having been completely overgrown, with mature trees shading it and all manners of bushes growing off the roof. Wild herons nest on the roof, and the dullness of the grey concrete brings out the greenery that surrounds it. The building's roof can also be circumnavigated, allowing for multi-level viewing, and the pool is massive by area, and mostly of a sufficient depth, with very clear underwater viewing to top it off.

Spotted Hyena:

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@twilighter

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@antonmuster

One of the zoo's newer additions, from the 2020 Lewa Savanne. Its long design that winds around the visitor pathway means that no photos really provide an appropriate overview of it, sadly. That said, I believe it is a very good enclosure, of a rather impressive size, with a variety of substrates and plenty of dens, shrubs and raised bushes for privacy. The first photo actually depicts a predator-and-prey setup with the savannah behind (although only the giraffes are tall enough to be seen behind the enclosure), while the second shows the rest of the enclosure, the longer and more narrow portion that follows the guests' path. Again, I have seen some suggestions that it is actually two enclosures, and if so then it is another example of such dividing fences being very well-hidden, as I didn't notice on my visit (although looking back on my review, I did note that a considerable portion of the enclosure is well-obscured by one of Lewa's many towering boulders, so it is possible that the fence was there).

Meerkat:

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@Gil

One of the larger and better-designed meerkat enclosures that I have seen. How often do you see this species provided with such bushes? And there is plenty of substrate to dig in and a large onshow indoor area too. Said indoor area is part of the themed 'village' in Lewa, which for me is one of the better examples I have seen of cultural theming being used in a subtle manner that doesn't detract from the sincerity of the display, but does add to the immersion. Thatched roofs and colourful clay buildings, but nothing more.

Harbour Seal:

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@Kalaw

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@FunkyGibbon

A rather deep pool and a sufficient land area with multiple rocks, some reaching into the pool - a good feature of this enclosure that many seem to be lacking is the presence of some shaded land areas and some more exposed land areas, so the seals can chose whether or not they want sunlight. The enclosure isn't amazing, and other than the infamous Ape House (which it is immediately adjacent to, incidentally) is probably Zürich's worst enclosure, but that says more about Zürich than this enclosure is it is actually rather good. The only real issue it has is from a visitor's perspective - the really poor underwater viewing, which consists of just two or three wooden portholes besides the entrance to the Ape House, which were bad enough in the small morning crowds, but when I returned to this enclosure in the late afternoon, it was too busy to see through them.

Red Panda:

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@Kalaw

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@Kalaw

According to the zoo's map and ZTL, the Red Panda enclosure was not, as I had previously thought, included in the 'Panterra' development, and therefore is still present at the zoo and should count. Although unfortunately the snow leopard enclosure being reconstructed does mean that the multi-level viewing of the enclosure is likely no longer on offer, the enclosure itself should be just as good as it was before. Two enclosures, each with multiple, interconnected live trees and several smaller ones that mean the animals never need to come to the ground, although if they do, the dense undergrowth ensures privacy is still on offer. The height of the trees alone merits praise, but the whole enclosure is very well-constructed.

Just to reiterate, I do not believe Zürich is deserving of winning this, but I do believe they deserve two points, as their exhibit quality is just so high even without several key species and the elite snow leopard enclosure. Looking at photos of Vienna, my feeling is that its best offerings (I am particularly impressed by both bear enclosures and the wolf enclosure in the woodland) are far off Zürich's best (Spectacled Bears), and its worst (lions, leopards and sea lions all strike me as, if not poor, then certainly somewhat subpar) are far below the worst of Zürich (only the seal enclosure is close to 'bad,' and even then I would argue that is is rather decent).

For me, Vienna still deserves the win for many reasons: the displaying of woodland species such as lynx and wolves in a genuine woodland that seems to span the upper half of the zoo; the incorporation of historic big cat cages into the visitor viewing areas for modern ones; their strong breeding record with species such as cheetahs over the years; and of course the fact that their collection is over double the size of Zürich's. But even still, I believe the Swiss collection is far ahead enough with regards to exhibit quality that it merits two points.
 
I'd be interested to hear the argument from @Gil as regards why they have given Zurich the edge?
 
Vienna can add also stellar Dwarf Mongoose, Polar Bear and Wolf exhibits, but some of their Big Cats accommodations are more weaknesses rather than strengths.

I kind of disagree with that. The Polar bear exhibit has an excellent structure and a deep pool, but it is still on the small side. And for the wolves i wouldn't use the word stellar either. It is a basic exhibit with nothing outstanding. I agree with the big cats. The recent adaptions at the lion enclosure, without a possibility for future enlargements wasn't really understandable. At least the cheetah exhibit looks really nice after the latest modifications and they have good breeding results with them.
 
Some things to consider (imo) regarding Zurich for this match:
  • Only one of five viewpoints of the spectacled bear enclosure in Zurich are currently accessible to visitors
  • Panterra is finished, it just isn't open to visitors yet, and the first tiger is out of quarantine and has taken residence: Der erste Tiger ist da! | Zoo Zürich. The further animals will also take residence over the upcoming weeks before the opening to the public. Insofar as off-show areas have counted in other matches I think Panterra as a finished, inhabited, but temporarily still off-show area deserves some form of consideration in this match (?).
  • The Panterra enclosures remain largely as before with the following changes (c.f. Panthera | Zoo Zürich ):
    • Rotation concept with cat bridges over visitor pathways between the enclosures
    • The former wolf enclosure has been redesigned into a rotation enclosure for amur tiger/asiatic lion/snow leopard
    • New hunting simulations for behavioral enrichment (in addition to the existing ones, i presume)
    • The red panda have access to trees in the big cat enclosures
 
I'd be interested to hear the argument from @Gil as regards why they have given Zurich the edge?
I hesitated very much to give Vienna the lead, but I found carnivores enclosures in Schönbrunn mostly fine, nothing really impressive (the enclosures in the forest part being really big but not memorable) and some weaknesses. The integration of old structures is great, like the old tiger cage, and clearly makes Vienna stand out on this point. What made me give one point more to Zurich is that the spectacled bear enclosure is an example of a zoo that could make me want to visit only to see such an incredible enclosure. And the enclosures for the other species are great (I especially like the otters enclosure).
 
The further animals will also take residence over the upcoming weeks before the opening to the public. Insofar as off-show areas have counted in other matches I think Panterra as a finished, inhabited, but temporarily still off-show area deserves some form of consideration in this match (?).

Off-show areas and future developments explicitly have *not* counted in other matches; species present in a collection off-display have counted in certain circumstances (as regards discussion of captive breeding and conservation, for instance), but the housing and enclosures that contain them are not eligible for consideration. In any case, per the article you linked yourself, only a single animal intended for the upcoming exhibit complex has actually arrived at the zoo so far - so taking the various other species and animals intended to go on-display within the complex into consideration would (at this time) be factually incorrect even if including future plans and developments was permitted.

Which, to repeat, it is not - for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to:

  • Plans can change, even at short notice.
  • There is no way to judge the accuracy or truth of any claims being made about what the exhibits "will" be like.
  • It is far too easy for people to make incorrect or misleading claims in order to further their own argument - see, for instance, your own assertion that Panterra should count because it is "finished [and] inhabited" when your own sources show that there is currently only a *single* inhabitant.
It's understandable that you want your home zoo to win, but complaining about people lacking up-to-date information when you didn't bother to provide said information until after the match ended (the Zurich v Chester match) or arguing that the zoo merits special exception from the rules (this match) isn't the way to go about things - there are three more matches for Zurich ahead, so I suggest you get involved in them from the very start and fight your corner as hard as possible! :D:)
 
Thanks for the clarification. I regret if I came across as overly dismissive or partisan. That is not my intention. Just trying to share relevant and current information from my home zoo. Incidentally, my last post arguably contains more relevant new information *against* Zurich as pertains to this match (the spectacled bear enclosure is currently almost completely closed to the public due to the Pantanal construction site) than in favor. I did not complain about people lacking information but instead I rectified and commented on the silliness of one argument where a personal lack of knowledge was used as argument in favor of discrediting as fake information provided by another user that was even backed up with a concrete reference.

I am currently too busy to participate in this cup anything more than occasionally and haphazardly. Having said that, I enjoy reading the posts these cup matches generate and appreciate the work you put in organizing them.

As for my vote: I know both collections first-hand and consider Zurich's carnivore enclosures consistently one league above Vienna's (which aren't bad and very unique in their own right) regarding the criteria that matter to me - however, considering that there currently simply aren't a lot of carnivores to see at Zurich (European otter, meerkat, spotted hyena and harbour seal, plus very limited views of spectacled bear, coati, and red panda, which according to your rules clarification imo should hardly count) I will vote 4-1 or 3-2 Vienna.

[...] your own assertion that Panterra should count because it is "finished [and] inhabited" when your own sources show that there is currently only a *single* inhabitant.
Just to clarify: Pantera is a rotation exhibt. The tigers have access to all four big cat enclosure complexes within it - as will the lions and the snow leopards.So yes, even with only a single tiger the Pantera enclosures are inhabited.


I understand why you would set the rules as you do - unfortunately it still feels like missing out on what could have been a highly interesting debate on the merits of the two collections. This rotation concept was indeed the main point of the entire redesign.
 
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unfortunately it still feels like missing out on what could have been a highly interesting debate on the merits of the two collections.

It does, to some extent - but there's unfortunately always going to be scenarios of this sort. For instance, any discussion of the Australian complex at Stuttgart (which has already occurred in one of the other matches to some extent) would naturally be limited by the fact the complex is still being added-to, with a wombat exhibit yet to be completed. Similarly, Chester is currently operating at a disadvantage where the Africa and Grassland categories are concerned due to the fact that the construction of a large exhibit complex relevant to these categories is currently underway, replacing many of the exhibits previously eligible.

Given how soon Panterra is due to open, the odds are pretty much certain that if Zurich progresses to the next round and pulls a match-category for which the exhibit is eligible, we will end up discussing it at some point.
 
A pretty open-and-shut match, and one which demonstrates the power of random chance and timing.....

League A - Zurich vs Vienna - CARNIVORES

Zurich - 40/115 points - 34.783%
Vienna - 75/115 points - 65.217%

However, both collections still have everything to play for going forward....
 
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