Australian Asian Elephant Population 2025

[Jambo]

I wonder given Tang Mo's age whether they will allow her to try and breed. While she never conceived with Gung, she allowed him to mount her. With Putra Mas, if he takes to natural breeding which there is no reason to think he wont given he mounted the females in his younger years. Whether they will contracept her or see if anything comes of it.
Being older and not having given birth if pregnancy did occur it would be interesting to see with her hips etc.

I mean there is no harm in trying. But it is important to remember that if she was uncomfortable with the mating process, she could still feel the same and so keepers may not be looking to put her through a potentially stressful situation when there's no added benefit.

I'm not exactly sure on the oldest first time mother in captivity (and the record) but if Tang Mo hypothetically does conceive she will likely birth at 28/29 at earliest which would surely be a record.

 

[Zoofan15]

I wonder given Tang Mo's age whether they will allow her to try and breed. While she never conceived with Gung, she allowed him to mount her. With Putra Mas, if he takes to natural breeding which there is no reason to think he wont given he mounted the females in his younger years. Whether they will contracept her or see if anything comes of it.
Being older and not having given birth if pregnancy did occur it would be interesting to see with her hips etc.

She’s 26 years old and guidelines specifically recommend breeding before this age for a first time pregnancy - which even then, carries a risk of a 40% mortality rate. Combined with her age, this risk would be even greater.

 

[Tiger91]

I mean there is no harm in trying. But it is important to remember that if she was uncomfortable with the mating process, she could still feel the same and so keepers may not be looking to put her through a potentially stressful situation when there's no added benefit.

I'm not exactly sure on the oldest first time mother in captivity (and the record) but if Tang Mo hypothetically does conceive she will likely birth at 28/29 at earliest which would surely be a record.

It's an interesting thing, because they will likely have Putra Mas in with her. If she is cycling and he is naturally breeding Pakboon then he will likely give Tang Mo a go as well. It's not uncommon for some species to show incredibly picky mate selection. Where Gung may have been a male she wasn't happy with there is the chance Putra Mas is a male she is happy with. On another note Gung was literally a teenager, where Putra Mas is now a mature bull. It may change things it may not.

She’s 26 years old and guidelines specifically recommend breeding before this age for a first time pregnancy - which even then, carries a risk of a 40% mortality rate. Combined with her age, this risk would be even greater.

Realistically she will likely be on contraception. But it would be interesting to see if it is true behavioral non breeding. Or if it is actually mate selection. It would provide valuable insight into if more cows are born/imported in the future and how to handle it.

 

[Jambo]

It's an interesting thing, because they will likely have Putra Mas in with her. If she is cycling and he is naturally breeding Pakboon then he will likely give Tang Mo a go as well. It's not uncommon for some species to show incredibly picky mate selection. Where Gung may have been a male she wasn't happy with there is the chance Putra Mas is a male she is happy with. On another note Gung was literally a teenager, where Putra Mas is now a mature bull. It may change things it may not.



Realistically she will likely be on contraception. But it would be interesting to see if it is true behavioral non breeding. Or if it is actually mate selection. It would provide valuable insight into if more cows are born/imported in the future and how to handle it.

Our region doesn't contracept their elephants. Since they only cycle for a period of a few days every three or so months so it's easier to just kept the specific cow cycling separate during this period if they don't wish for her to conceive.

It has also been theorised that Tang Mo may have just not shown a liking to Gung. It's very possible this may be a different story with Putra Mas, and if they both do get along she may be given the chance.

 

[Zoofan15]

It's an interesting thing, because they will likely have Putra Mas in with her. If she is cycling and he is naturally breeding Pakboon then he will likely give Tang Mo a go as well. It's not uncommon for some species to show incredibly picky mate selection. Where Gung may have been a male she wasn't happy with there is the chance Putra Mas is a male she is happy with. On another note Gung was literally a teenager, where Putra Mas is now a mature bull. It may change things it may not.



Realistically she will likely be on contraception. But it would be interesting to see if it is true behavioral non breeding. Or if it is actually mate selection. It would provide valuable insight into if more cows are born/imported in the future and how to handle it.

Our region doesn't contracept their elephants. Since they only cycle for a period of a few days every three or so months so it's easier to just kept the specific cow cycling separate during this period if they don't wish for her to conceive.

It has also been theorised that Tang Mo may have just not shown a liking to Gung. It's very possible this may be a different story with Putra Mas, and if they both do get along she may be given the chance.

This will be continued at Werribee, as they have two seperate bull paddocks in addition to the three rotational paddocks dedicated to the cows. Monitoring the cycles will allow at least allows bulls/cows to socialise outside of the cow’s fertile period.

Tang Mo would allow Gung to mount, but edged away at the critical moment, suggesting she has no aversion to Gung - rather the act of mating.

 

[Jambo]

Tang Mo would allow Gung to mount, but edged away at the critical moment, suggesting she has no aversion to Gung - rather the act of mating.

Likely due to her narrowed reproductive tract. It would make the act of mating rather painful.

 

[Zoofan15]

Likely due to her narrowed reproductive tract. It would make the act of mating rather painful.

That’s my theory too. Tang Mo was close to full grown at that age suggesting her anatomy wouldn’t have changed significantly in that time and the result would be the same with Putra Mas - who in addition wouldn’t necessarily have the mating skills of Gung in the first place.

 

[Yassa]

Tang Mo is at an age where a pregnancy is already very likely. But if a female her age does get pregnant (thats rare but has happened before), the calf is almost always born dead or worse, gets stuck in the birth canal, putting the mothers life at risk. Its not ‚it doesnt hurt trying‘, because Tang Mo getting pregnant would put her at a substantial risk of dying.

 

[Zoofan15]

Tang Mo is at an age where a pregnancy is already very likely. But if a female her age does get pregnant (thats rare but has happened before), the calf is almost always born dead or worse, gets stuck in the birth canal, putting the mothers life at risk. It’s not ‚it doesnt hurt trying‘, because Tang Mo getting pregnant would put her at a substantial risk of dying.

I agree. Taronga effectively exhausted all options when she was 10-13 years, including at least three AI attempts following three years of attempts at natural breeding.

Tang Mo is a founder and it would have been beneficial to the region had she successfully bred; but no elephant is so genetically valuable it’s worth taking a significant risk with their life.

 

[Tiger91]

Tang Mo is at an age where a pregnancy is already very likely. But if a female her age does get pregnant (thats rare but has happened before), the calf is almost always born dead or worse, gets stuck in the birth canal, putting the mothers life at risk. Its not ‚it doesnt hurt trying‘, because Tang Mo getting pregnant would put her at a substantial risk of dying.

If she did conceive it doesn't mean they have to allow her to carry or sustain the pregnancy. But it would offer valuable insight into reproductive behaviors between different bulls.

 

[Zoofan15]

If she did conceive it doesn't mean they have to allow her to carry or sustain the pregnancy. But it would offer valuable insight into reproductive behaviors between different bulls.

With respect, that would be nothing more than an experiment and is definitely not how our region’s zoos operate.

In any case, if Pak Boon (a potentially viable cow) receives a breeding recommendation to breed with Putra Mas, that would be a more insightful comparison between Putra Mas (an unproven natural breeder) and Gung (a proven natural breeder) as Pak Boon herself is a proven breeder.

 

[Tiger91]

Tang Mo would allow Gung to mount, but edged away at the critical moment, suggesting she has no aversion to Gung - rather the act of mating.

It's often a behavior used in younger elephants especially Africans when young bulls mount adult cows, especially younger ones. When mounted the females release a mating call that effectively calls in all the bulls, it is theorized to be designed to call in the older dominant bulls that's females want to mate with, over younger more immature bulls. It is very possible that while she allowed Gung to mount her, Gung wasn't old enough for her to actually want mating to occur.
It will be interesting to see if this did change when she is put in contact with an actual mature bull. Once werribee start housing multiple bulls on site. If they have a younger male that specific females don't breed with, especially younger teen cows. Instead of designating them behavioral non breeders they can start to think about how to get around it. Instead of possibly leaving them to miss the window of reproductive viability, like we may have done here. And we would have done if Anjalee was not moved over to western plains.

Of memory they only attempted AI once or twice with Tang Mo, Anjalee also had AI attempted multiple times and did not conceive. But is currently pregnant.

 

[Tiger91]

With respect, that would be nothing more than an experiment and is definitely not how our region’s zoos operate.

In any case, if Pak Boon (a potentially viable cow) receives a breeding recommendation to breed with Putra Mas (an unproven natural breeder), that will be a more insightful comparison between Putra Mas and Gung (a proven natural breeder) as Pak Boon herself is a proven breeder.

Our zoos operate in this manner more then people probably realise, the southern white rhinos before the mass die of at western plains zoo. Were partnered with san diego zoos AI research there were plenty of failed pregnancies there, in the name of research. If research improves animal husbandry its has never been shied away from being carried out nor should it be.

 

[Zoofan15]

It's often a behavior used in younger elephants especially Africans when young bulls mount adult cows, especially younger ones. When mounted the females release a mating call that effectively calls in all the bulls, it is theorized to be designed to call in the older dominant bulls that's females want to mate with, over younger more immature bulls. It is very possible that while she allowed Gung to mount her, Gung wasn't old enough for her to actually want mating to occur.
It will be interesting to see if this did change when she is put in contact with an actual mature bull. Once werribee start housing multiple bulls on site. If they have a younger male that specific females don't breed with, especially younger teen cows. Instead of designating them behavioral non breeders they can start to think about how to get around it. Instead of possibly leaving them to miss the window of reproductive viability, like we may have done here. And we would have done if Anjalee was not moved over to western plains.

Of memory they only attempted AI once or twice with Tang Mo, Anjalee also had AI attempted multiple times and did not conceive. But is currently pregnant.

AI was attempted at least three times with Tang Mo. Two attempts are referenced here, with a subsequent third attempt resulting in a pregnancy (that unfortunately didn’t progress to term):

Cyclic changes in cortisol across the estrous cycle in parous and nulliparous Asian elephants - PMC

AI was undertaken a total of five times with Anjalee.

While bulls in the wild typically don’t mate until their prime, there’s no evidence with the region to suggest that age alone is an impediment to breeding. Gung was initially delayed in breeding Porntip and Pak Boon only by his height. Once he reached the age of eight years, he was of sufficient stature to mount the cows and succeeded in impregnating Pak Boon (Porntip was already pregnant by this stage). Bear in mind he has prior to this, impregnated Thong Dee when he was just seven years old (with Thong Dee being two years older than Tang Mo).

As a further example, Luk Chai (the aged 11 years) succeeding in impregnating all three viable cows at Melbourne Zoo (aged 10-27 years) on their first cycle following his transfer from Dubbo.

 

[Tiger91]

AI was attempted at least three times with Tang Mo. Two attempts are referenced here, with a subsequent third attempt resulting in a pregnancy (that unfortunately didn’t progress to term):

Cyclic changes in cortisol across the estrous cycle in parous and nulliparous Asian elephants - PMC

AI was undertaken a total of five times with Anjalee.

While bulls in the wild typically don’t mate until their prime, there’s no evidence with the region to suggest that age alone is an impediment to breeding. Gung was initially delayed in breeding Porntip and Pak Boon only by his height. Once he reached the age of eight years, he was of sufficient stature to mount the cows and succeeded in impregnating Pak Boon (Porntip was already pregnant by this stage). Bear in mind he has prior to this, impregnated Thong Dee when he was just seven years old (with Thong Dee being two years older than Tang Mo).

As a further example, Luk Chai (the aged 11 years) succeeding in impregnating all three viable cows at Melbourne Zoo (aged 10-27 years) on their first cycle following his transfer from Dubbo.

Yes, I'm not saying that the bulls are not capable. But do Asian elephants display mate selection from the female side of the interaction. While the other females did not show any preference, doesn't mean that Tang Mo didn't. The same could have been said for Permai actually. Putra Mas was attempting to breed her when they were younger, again if she was not happy with the bull. Could it have been female bias that prevented breeding and not true 'behavioural non breeding'

As our herds grow, and if we are going to keep with the somewhat ridiculous decision to move away from AI. It's going to be something zoos need to be aware of.

 

[Zoofan15]

Our zoos operate in this manner more then people probably realise, the southern white rhinos before the mass die of at western plains zoo. Were partnered with san diego zoos AI research there were plenty of failed pregnancies there, in the name of research. If research improves animal husbandry its has never been shied away from being carried out nor should it be.

Our region’s zoos follow the Five Domains model of Animal Welfare and allowing an elephant to conceive (assuming that’s even possible) with the intention of terminating said pregnancy for the sake of “research” is a violation of her welfare. It would never happen in an Australasian zoo. In any case, adequate sample size is a fundamental component of any experiment and undertaking this with a single cow would offer little to no scientific insight with external influences potentially influencing results and evidenced based conclusions to be drawn.

Yes, I'm not saying that the bulls are not capable. But do Asian elephants display mate selection from the female side of the interaction. While the other females did not show any preference, doesn't mean that Tang Mo didn't. The same could have been said for Permai actually. Putra Mas was attempting to breed her when they were younger, again if she was not happy with the bull. Could it have been female bias that prevented breeding and not true 'behavioural non breeding'

As our herds grow, and if we are going to keep with the somewhat ridiculous decision to move away from AI. It's going to be something zoos need to be aware of.

One of the many reasons the elephants in our region are being housed in open range zoos is to support the natural social structure of elephants (and their social development), of which there is a limited capacity to do so in city zoos.

Calves will grow up in multigenerational herds, where they will have the opportunity to observe adults mating. The calves (while pre-reproductive) will then have the opportunity to practice mounting behaviours with opposite sex peers. This is instrumental in the development of socially competent breeding bulls/cows

Many captive bulls that are behavioural non-breeders lacked exposure to these experiences in their formative years. Bulls like Bong Su and Putra Mas arrived as juveniles and may never have observed reproductive interactions in their natal herds. AI has previously been essential to breed from bulls like Bong Su, but the hope is it won’t be necessary long term due to the region raising socially competent young elephants.

 

[OzZooJoy]

There is also a lack of research into terminating elephant pregnancies, but there are some clear concerns about the risks involved. Very little would be gained for too many unknowns.

 

[Jambo]

One of the many reasons the elephants in our region are being housed in open range zoos is to support the natural social structure of elephants (and their social development), of which there is a limited capacity to do so in city zoos.

Calves will grow up in multigenerational herds, where they will have the opportunity to observe adults mating. The calves (while pre-reproductive) will then have the opportunity to practice mounting behaviours with opposite sex peers. This is instrumental in the development of socially competent breeding bulls/cows

Werribee have mentioned they'll be making a clear effort towards being more 'hands off' with their elephants going forward, allowing them to have more choice in their day and giving them more opportunities to make decisions much like wild elephants would do.

This should be a huge benefit for them socially and should allow the proper, natural behaviours to come out and be developed and harnessed.

In the case of Tang Mo, they have to consider her own welfare. Her narrowed reproductive tract could also make pregnancy quite painful and consequently birth quite dangerous for her. Melbourne faced difficulties with Ongard and his larger size at birth and that's obviously resulted in Kulab not being able to breed anymore. It's not hard to see the same (or likely worse) occuring with Tang Mo *if she was still of a viable age.

 

[Zoofan15]

Video of the Werribee Complex:

From Zoos Victoria:

 

[Zoofan15]

Video of the Werribee Complex:

From Zoos Victoria:

Complex Formatting

At 0.0.1 you can see overhead shot of the complex. The bull pool (better shot at 1.28) can be seen in the centre, which is adjoined to Paddock 5. Paddock 4 (not shown) is adjacent to this am also designated for the use of bulls long term. Both Paddock 4 and Paddock 5 adjoin the bull barn.

The fidget spinner shape in the middle is not one of the five paddocks, but rather a play area for the matriarchal herd - comprised of sand and a large pool (better shot 1.22).

Beyond the Terrace (visitor viewing) is Paddock 1 in the far distance. Paddock 2 borders this paddock to the right, with most of it able to be seen in this shot.

Paddock 3 is connected to the matriarchal herd barn, with flow on to Paddock 2 and then Paddock 1.