Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

Tiger91 said:
It's good to see a new birth!. Hopefully a female. While not particularly genetically important. I dare say she would be able to be matched at either Melbourne or Taronga. Given there lack of imports of females which we need. A home bred one would go a long way to future breeding.
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Potentially considering both facilities have European born silverbacks (and therefore are unrelated to all of the other gorillas in the region besides their respective offspring).

Melbourne especially are in desperate need of another breeding female asap and even in the event this offspring is a female; she won't be moving across anytime soon.
 
Jambo said:
Potentially considering both facilities have European born silverbacks (and therefore are unrelated to all of the other gorillas in the region besides their respective offspring).

Melbourne especially are in desperate need of another breeding female asap and even in the event this offspring is a female; she won't be moving across anytime soon.
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It Won't be a magic bullet, but it may give a reason to import. If melbourne imports a female now then if this infant is female, and they take her two. By the time she is breeding age, it gives a nice spread of ages. But it also means that instead of lining two up and importing then concurrently, they can just import a single female. Which may be a more favorable idea for them, both cost wise and ease wise. We all would love to see them import a larger number of females. But our main zoos seem set on importing the bare minimum.
 
Tiger91 said:
It Won't be a magic bullet, but it may give a reason to import. If melbourne imports a female now then if this infant is female, and they take her two. By the time she is breeding age, it gives a nice spread of ages. But it also means that instead of lining two up and importing then concurrently, they can just import a single female. Which may be a more favorable idea for them, both cost wise and ease wise. We all would love to see them import a larger number of females. But our main zoos seem set on importing the bare minimum.
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What I’d most like to see if Melbourne import two reproductive aged females, while retaining Kanzi as a non-breeding female (in support of her mother, who could even retire from breeding).

It’s entirely possible this infant could go to Melbourne if female, but their troop is comprised of two females from Kriba’s line and so I’m of the opinion it’s unlikely if Kimya is to continue to breed.
 
Zoofan15 said:
What I’d most like to see if Melbourne import two reproductive aged females, while retaining Kanzi as a non-breeding female (in support of her mother, who could even retire from breeding).

It’s entirely possible this infant could go to Melbourne if female, but their troop is comprised of two females from Kriba’s line and so I’m of the opinion it’s unlikely if Kimya is to continue to breed.
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I'm still not sure as to why Kimya hasn't conceived again. Nor why any other females have been imported. I and others have asked these questions over the years but we've never been given a straight forward answer or confirmation either way.

Imo it's probably due to one of two reasons;

A) Otana's past may be a huge contributing factor here. This would be a strong reason for Melbourne being unwilling to acquire two new females, even if they are socially competent. There's honestly every reason to assume they'd integrate well due to obvious reasons but it's possible they just might not be willing to take the risk. These days it's very rare you see older, mature females (who would perhaps be more experienced with silverbacks) moved to other troops. Therefore it's likely if we were to import, we'd be receiving younger females. Females who potentially may not be as equipped to deal with Otana and his protective personality. Thus, they may be willing too effectively 'phase out' this breeding troop with maybe the intention of starting over eventually. Both Kimya and Kanzi are young and neither are necessarily valuable females so there's really no issues there assuming both females are content with the current social grouping and no issues arise.

B) Melbourne have attempted to breed from Kimya and she simply hasn't conceived due to the rather uneven sex ratio and the potential stresses involved. To date, since Kanzi's birth I've never seen Otana interact with Kimya which is surprising. I wonder if there's something in that considering it's very common for silverbacks to interact with the rest of their troop (especially their breeding females). In regards to the imports; there may just be no females available. However this is what I've been telling myself for years and as time has gone on I'm starting to feel this may not be the case! In saying that, Melbourne would be wanting two females (at least), preferably from the same troop but from different mothers. Thus, they may be waiting on this.
 
Jambo said:
I'm still not sure as to why Kimya hasn't conceived again. Nor why any other females have been imported. I and others have asked these questions over the years but we've never been given a straight forward answer or confirmation either way.

Imo it's probably due to one of two reasons;

A) Otana's past may be a huge contributing factor here. This would be a strong reason for Melbourne being unwilling to acquire two new females, even if they are socially competent. There's honestly every reason to assume they'd integrate well due to obvious reasons but it's possible they just might not be willing to take the risk. These days it's very rare you see older, mature females (who would perhaps be more experienced with silverbacks) moved to other troops. Therefore it's likely if we were to import, we'd be receiving younger females. Females who potentially may not be as equipped to deal with Otana and his protective personality. Thus, they may be willing too effectively 'phase out' this breeding troop with maybe the intention of starting over eventually. Both Kimya and Kanzi are young and neither are necessarily valuable females so there's really no issues there assuming both females are content with the current social grouping and no issues arise.

B) Melbourne have attempted to breed from Kimya and she simply hasn't conceived due to the rather uneven sex ratio and the potential stresses involved. To date, since Kanzi's birth I've never seen Otana interact with Kimya which is surprising. I wonder if there's something in that considering it's very common for silverbacks to interact with the rest of their troop (especially their breeding females). In regards to the imports; there may just be no females available. However this is what I've been telling myself for years and as time has gone on I'm starting to feel this may not be the case! In saying that, Melbourne would be wanting two females (at least), preferably from the same troop but from different mothers. Thus, they may be waiting on this.
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I might be able to (partially) answer this in that I was told by one of their keepers in November 2023 that Kimya was in fact on contraception (and had not been trying unsuccessfully to conceive as had been speculated). The keeper I spoke to wasn’t aware of any upcoming plans to source new females at that point in time.

The lack of breeding recommendation is presumably due to the representation of Kimya’s line, though as we know, she has a full sister currently breeding with a Howlett’s male.

Bringing in two females from the same troop would ensure they had each other’s protection in an introduction and as long as they were socially competent, I don’t foresee issues.

It’s unfortunate Otana doesn’t have sons as transitioning him into a bachelor troop would be the best case scenario. He’s far from the model silverback we’ve seen in Kibabu, Kibale etc.
 
Jambo said:
I'm still not sure as to why Kimya hasn't conceived again. Nor why any other females have been imported. I and others have asked these questions over the years but we've never been given a straight forward answer or confirmation either way.

Imo it's probably due to one of two reasons;

A) Otana's past may be a huge contributing factor here. This would be a strong reason for Melbourne being unwilling to acquire two new females, even if they are socially competent. There's honestly every reason to assume they'd integrate well due to obvious reasons but it's possible they just might not be willing to take the risk. These days it's very rare you see older, mature females (who would perhaps be more experienced with silverbacks) moved to other troops. Therefore it's likely if we were to import, we'd be receiving younger females. Females who potentially may not be as equipped to deal with Otana and his protective personality. Thus, they may be willing too effectively 'phase out' this breeding troop with maybe the intention of starting over eventually. Both Kimya and Kanzi are young and neither are necessarily valuable females so there's really no issues there assuming both females are content with the current social grouping and no issues arise.

B) Melbourne have attempted to breed from Kimya and she simply hasn't conceived due to the rather uneven sex ratio and the potential stresses involved. To date, since Kanzi's birth I've never seen Otana interact with Kimya which is surprising. I wonder if there's something in that considering it's very common for silverbacks to interact with the rest of their troop (especially their breeding females). In regards to the imports; there may just be no females available. However this is what I've been telling myself for years and as time has gone on I'm starting to feel this may not be the case! In saying that, Melbourne would be wanting two females (at least), preferably from the same troop but from different mothers. Thus, they may be waiting on this.
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It really appears that Melbourne's troop is in real decline unfortunately!
 
Zoofan15 said:
I might be able to (partially) answer this in that I was told by one of their keepers in November 2023 that Kimya was in fact on contraception (and had not been trying unsuccessfully to conceive as had been speculated). The keeper I spoke to wasn’t aware of any upcoming plans to source new females at that point in time.

The lack of breeding recommendation is presumably due to the representation of Kimya’s line, though as we know, she has a full sister currently breeding with a Howlett’s male.

Bringing in two females from the same troop would ensure they had each other’s protection in an introduction and as long as they were socially competent, I don’t foresee issues.

It’s unfortunate Otana doesn’t have sons as transitioning him into a bachelor troop would be the best case scenario. He’s far from the model silverback we’ve seen in Kibabu, Kibale etc.
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Very true, yet it contradicts what some of us have been told in the past. At one point it was mentioned on here by a member (I can't remember who) that she was off contraception and they were looking to breed her. I was also told the same (although this was four or five years ago).

It just doesn't make sense as to why they wouldn't issue her with another recommendation. Five years ago I would have agreed with you. But five years on, it's now been almost ten years since she last gave birth and the troops numbers have dwindled to just three. Surely another offspring would be of immense benefit to the group socially and that would provide enough justification for another recommendation.

A daughter from Kimya would be great in that it would provide social stabilisation in the troop long term. A son would give them the opportunity to transition him into a bachelor group with his father eventually too, as you mentioned.
 
Tiger91 said:
It's rather unfortunate that Werribee sits on Australian born males that could probably be utilized in place of Otana. If they had the facilities to keep him melbourne needs to do a swap.
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Besides Motaba, a now elderly silverback who's quite well represented, the other two are his sons who were both hand raised. Both males have long been removed from the regional breeding program due to this as mother raised silverbacks are now the preference these days to head troops.

Not to mention it would also be very difficult Otana into an already well established bachelor group which has now been together for almost two decades. Especially when you consider Motaba's age and physical capabalities now, it probably wouldn't be ideal to introduce any younger, potentially hostile males into the mix.

In saying that, I've always thought this was a huge shame as both males are quite valuable on their maternal sides and it would be wonderful if they could have the opportunity. Yakini to me has always shown the most promise socially; Ganyeka's always been a bit aloof and moody.
 
Tiger91 said:
It's rather unfortunate that Werribee sits on Australian born males that could probably be utilized in place of Otana. If they had the facilities to keep him melbourne needs to do a swap.
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Ganyeka and Yakini are both unrelated to the Kriba line. I suspect that the continued cohesion of the Werribee bachelor troop has influenced a decision to maintain them as is, coupled with the fact there may be uncertainty around their socialisation/suitability as leaders.
 
Jambo said:
Besides Motaba, a now elderly silverback who's quite well represented, the other two are his sons who were both hand raised. Both males have long been removed from the regional breeding program due to this as mother raised silverbacks are now the preference these days to head troops.

Not to mention it would also be very difficult Otana into an already well established bachelor group which has now been together for almost two decades. Especially when you consider Motaba's age and physical capabalities now, it probably wouldn't be ideal to introduce any younger, potentially hostile males into the mix.

In saying that, I've always thought this was a huge shame as both males are quite valuable on their maternal sides and it would be wonderful if they could have the opportunity. Yakini to me has always shown the most promise socially; Ganyeka's always been a bit aloof and moody.
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I don't think they would be able to integrate they would have to hold Otana in BOH holdings if they had the space. But in this situation a mother raised silver back could well be the issue, while hand reared silver backs have in the past been ok and bred successfully. At this point they are genetically valuable and it can't go any worse then what it is. They effectively just have a stale mate with Otana, especially if he is the reason they can't/wont import new females.
 
Jambo said:
Very true, yet it contradicts what some of us have been told in the past. At one point it was mentioned on here by a member (I can't remember who) that she was off contraception and they were looking to breed her. I was also told the same (although this was four or five years ago).

It just doesn't make sense as to why they wouldn't issue her with another recommendation. Five years ago I would have agreed with you. But five years on, it's now been almost ten years since she last gave birth and the troops numbers have dwindled to just three. Surely another offspring would be of immense benefit to the group socially and that would provide enough justification for another recommendation.

A daughter from Kimya would be great in that it would provide social stabilisation in the troop long term. A son would give them the opportunity to transition him into a bachelor group with his father eventually too, as you mentioned.
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Bear in mind that plans are dynamic, changing from year to year in response to changes within the regional population.

Fikiri’s death at Taronga undoubtably would have been a pivotal moment as she would have played a key role in the future of the breeding programme - a mother raised female descend from a genetically valuable male (and relatively genetically valuable female).

Fikiri remaining at Taronga and a new male brought in (Kibale and sons transitioning into a bachelor troop) is one option; with her transferring to Melbourne being even more likely imo.
 
Tiger91 said:
I don't think they would be able to integrate they would have to hold Otana in BOH holdings if they had the space. But in this situation a mother raised silver back could well be the issue, while hand reared silver backs have in the past been ok and bred successfully. At this point they are genetically valuable and it can't go any worse then what it is. They effectively just have a stale mate with Otana, especially if he is the reason they can't/wont import new females.
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I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in that there may be very little wriggle room in what they can do with Otana. Keeping him in isolation isn’t an option from a welfare perspective and the situation isn’t so dire as to warrant euthanasia.

I do remain optimistic adolescent (socially competent) females could be introduced to him, but if he’s not interacting appropriately with the two females in his troop, I can understand a reluctance to add more.
 
Tiger91 said:
I don't think they would be able to integrate they would have to hold Otana in BOH holdings if they had the space. But in this situation a mother raised silver back could well be the issue, while hand reared silver backs have in the past been ok and bred successfully. At this point they are genetically valuable and it can't go any worse then what it is. They effectively just have a stale mate with Otana, especially if he is the reason they can't/wont import new females.
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It wouldn't be advisable to hold Otana by himself which is the biggest issue imo. Melbourne did this with Rigo decades ago and even had backlash for this back then!

If they did consider him to be a negating factor in acquire new females, they would have offloaded him already. He's not the most valuable silverback globally. There's really not much space to pivot in.
 
Jambo said:
Very true, yet it contradicts what some of us have been told in the past. At one point it was mentioned on here by a member (I can't remember who) that she was off contraception and they were looking to breed her. I was also told the same (although this was four or five years ago).

It just doesn't make sense as to why they wouldn't issue her with another recommendation. Five years ago I would have agreed with you. But five years on, it's now been almost ten years since she last gave birth and the troops numbers have dwindled to just three. Surely another offspring would be of immense benefit to the group socially and that would provide enough justification for another recommendation.

A daughter from Kimya would be great in that it would provide social stabilisation in the troop long term. A son would give them the opportunity to transition him into a bachelor group with his father eventually too, as you mentioned.
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It's such a shame to see a once vibrant breeding group dwindle down to its current situation what "plan" are they following who's responsible?
 
For those unaware, the Australasian breeding programme functions as an extension to the European breeding programme, which explains the return of multiple adolescent females to Europe (originally bred at Apenheul and designated for use in Europe).

Europe has recently slowed breeding in response to a surplus building up in their zoos. This is a consequence of succesful breeding; and individuals living longer lives.
 
Jambo said:
It wouldn't be advisable to hold Otana by himself which is the biggest issue imo. Melbourne did this with Rigo decades ago and even had backlash for this back then!

If they did consider him to be a negating factor in acquire new females, they would have offloaded him already. He's not the most valuable silverback globally. There's really not much space to pivot in.
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Possibly, but if he isn't genetically valuable with the current state of the gorilla populations overseas it may not be feasible to move him. Can't get rid of him if there is no takers, and while we used to send animals to questionable zoo's. These days that would garner the same backlash as keeping him in solitary confinement.
 
Zorro said:
It's such a shame to see a once vibrant breeding group dwindle down to its current situation what "plan" are they following who's responsible?
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Unfortunately this was always going to occur either way when you consider the foundations Melbourne built it's troop on (all older, hand raised females).

In regards to the future, I can only really see one option here if they're unwilling to take the risk adding any other additional females;

That is maintaining the group as it is for the foreseeable. Maybe with the intention of acquiring an entirely new troop in the long term and moving this trio across to Werribee once their troop starts to pass on.
*Maybe by that point, we may see the remaining male given the opportunity to head up a troop at Melbourne;) (wishful thinking!)
 
Zoofan15 said:
Europe has recently slowed breeding in response to a surplus building up in their zoos. This is a consequence of succesful breeding; and individuals living longer lives.
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Yet Melbourne still hasn't snatched up a few females where there's every opportunity to do so! The European coordinator would surely be glad to offload a few females to Australia. All of our zoos could pretty much do with additional females.
Tiger91 said:
Possibly, but if he isn't genetically valuable with the current state of the gorilla populations overseas it may not be feasible to move him. Can't get rid of him if there is no takers, and while we used to send animals to questionable zoo's. These days that would garner the same backlash as keeping him in solitary confinement.
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Most zoos would be very unwilling to take him on when they consider his past. Considering his value, it's likely it would be a bachelor troop if anything. And there's no guarantees he'll integrate well with other males. I guess it's worth trying but there does need to be a facility on the other end who's willing to take this risk on. Realistically, there'd be very little facilities.
 
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