Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

[Zoofan15]

Unfortunately this was always going to occur either way when you consider the foundations Melbourne built it's troop on (all older, hand raised females).

In regards to the future, I can only really see one option here if they're unwilling to take the risk adding any other additional females;

That is maintaining the group as it is for the foreseeable. Maybe with the intention of acquiring an entirely new troop in the long term and moving this trio across to Werribee once their troop starts to pass on.
*Maybe by that point, we may see the remaining male given the opportunity to head up a troop at Melbourne (wishful thinking!)

You make a good point regarding the challenges Melbourne had in establishing a functional troop considering Yuska and Betsy were hand-raised (albeit with peers); and then as if that wasn’t enough, they had an infertile silverback and another that was socially malapted to lead the troop. Fast forward to the import of Otana, who has been far from ideal

Compare this to Taronga, who imported a mother raised family troop from Europe; with a equally impressive male heading up the current troop.

 

[Zoofan15]

Yet Melbourne still hasn't snatched up a few females where there's every opportunity to do so! The European coordinator would surely be glad to offload a few females to Australia. All of our zoos could pretty much do with additional females.

Most zoos would be very unwilling to take him on when they consider his past. Considering his value, it's likely it would be a bachelor troop if anything. And there's no guarantees he'll integrate well with other males. I guess it's worth trying but there does need to be a facility on the other end who's willing to take this risk on. Realistically, there'd be very little facilities.

It is indeed baffling considering due to the ages of Kriba and Frala (both of whom are now retired from breeding) and Johari being a behavioural non-breeder, that Taronga and Mogo are each reduced to a 1.1 breeding pair (same as Melbourne).

Compare this to the late 1990’s, when Taronga/Melbourne each had three breeding females.

 

[Tiger91]

Yet Melbourne still hasn't snatched up a few females where there's every opportunity to do so! The European coordinator would surely be glad to offload a few females to Australia. All of our zoos could pretty much do with additional females.

Most zoos would be very unwilling to take him on when they consider his past. Considering his value, it's likely it would be a bachelor troop if anything. And there's no guarantees he'll integrate well with other males. I guess it's worth trying but there does need to be a facility on the other end who's willing to take this risk on. Realistically, there'd be very little facilities.

There best bet would be to intergrate him with Tarongas young males when they send them of. If they were to theoretically go to the newer facility at the same time. It may be possible to integrate them all at once, unlikely tho.

Werribee would be there best bet in BOH facilities kept solo. That way they could say he has some social interaction with the other males through 'bars' etc.

 

[Jambo]

You make a good point regarding the challenges Melbourne had in establishing a functional troop considering Yuska and Betsy were hand-raised (albeit with peers); and then as if that wasn’t enough, they had an infertile silverback and another that was socially malapted to lead the troop. Fast forward to the import of Otana, who has been far from ideal

Compare this to Taronga, who imported a mother raised family troop from Europe; with a equally impressive male heading up the current troop.

We have to give credit to Melbourne for trying though. The moving of Rigo back into the main troop in 2006 was a last ditch attempt to get further offspring from him. They partially brought Mbeli in to 'teach' the other females social behaviors and also how to interact with a silverback. This proved well from all accounts, as Yuska managed to remain in Otana's group until her death despite being a perimeter female at best (like Johari at Taronga).

I still do think it would've been best if Taronga just let Mbeli (and Johari) remain at Melbourne with Kimya. That would've gave Otana two breeding females and we can only imagine how well Melbourne's troop would look today with three females (two breeding) and a multitude of offspring. The only reason I can think of as to why Melbourne never ended up pursuing this was due to capacity (they would've had six females plus the silverback, without counting any infants).

I really don't know why Taronga abandoned their plans to retire Kibabu with his sons. That would've left a new silverback to arrive and be paired with Frala, Kriba and Kipenzi (assuming Mouila was to be retired).

 

[Zoofan15]

There best bet would be to intergrate him with Tarongas young males when they send them of. If they were to theoretically go to the newer facility at the same time. It may be possible to integrate them all at once, unlikely tho.

Werribee would be there best bet in BOH facilities kept solo. That way they could say he has some social interaction with the other males through 'bars' etc.

One of Melbourne’s elephant keepers explained it really well regarding decisions on transfers by saying that a key consideration is whether the animal’s life would be improved by the transfer to another facility.

While Otana could potentially assimilate into a bachelor troop (I’d say highly risky to the adolescents in this scenario), the uncertainty means he’s better of remaining in his current troop. It could be an option to transfer him out if he has two or more sons down the line (2.0 bachelor troops see aggression directed at a single subordinate).

 

[Zoofan15]

We have to give credit to Melbourne for trying though. The moving of Rigo back into the main troop in 2006 was a last ditch attempt to get further offspring from him. They partially brought Mbeli in to 'teach' the other females social behaviors and also how to interact with a silverback. This proved well from all accounts, as Yuska managed to remain in Otana's group until her death despite being a perimeter female at best (like Johari at Taronga).

I still do think it would've been best if Taronga just let Mbeli (and Johari) remain at Melbourne with Kimya. That would've gave Otana two breeding females and we can only imagine how well Melbourne's troop would look today with three females (two breeding) and a multitude of offspring. The only reason I can think of as to why Melbourne never ended up pursuing this was due to capacity (they would've had six females plus the silverback, without counting any infants).

I really don't know why Taronga abandoned their plans to retire Kibabu with his sons. That would've left a new silverback to arrive and be paired with Frala, Kriba and Kipenzi (assuming Mouila was to be retired).

100%. Melbourne worked wonders with the cards they were dealt. Breeding Motaba with a founder who had thus far failed to contribute to the population (by virtue of an infertile mate) was a masterstroke, especially considering this occurred within a troop led by said infertile silverback, who fortunately turned a blind eye.

Even bearing in mind the loss of Fikiri, Frala’s life was improved immensely by starting afresh with a new silverback. She was on the outside of Kriba/Mouila, which only would have been compounded by retaining Kipenzi. In Kibale’s troop, she’s the second favourite female out of three, with each female having no ties to the other two.

 

[Jambo]

There best bet would be to intergrate him with Tarongas young males when they send them of. If they were to theoretically go to the newer facility at the same time. It may be possible to integrate them all at once, unlikely tho.

Werribee would be there best bet in BOH facilities kept solo. That way they could say he has some social interaction with the other males through 'bars' etc.

Werribee could rotate two male troops on/off display. I know San Diego Zoo do this with their breeding/bachelor groups but again, it relies on whether they want to take the risk with attempting to assimilate Otana with a bachelor troop.

Orana could be a possibility considering they have two enclosures that could made available in the event he isn't able to integrate with other males. But how would his welfare be impacted in that case. That all has to be taken into consideration, and I can tell you with much certainty there isn't much justification right now to take that risk.

 

[Zoofan15]

Werribee could rotate two male troops on/off display. I know San Diego Zoo do this with their breeding/bachelor groups but again, it relies on whether they want to take the risk with attempting to assimilate Otana with a bachelor troop.

Orana could be a possibility considering they have two enclosures that could made available in the event he isn't able to integrate with other males. But how would his welfare be impacted in that case. That all has to be taken into consideration, and I can tell you with much certainty there isn't much justification right now to take that risk.

Agreed. If Orana Wildlife Park acquired any males, I’d say the prime candidates would be Taronga’s adolescents. They be seen as less of a threat to the Orana males and likely assimilate well into their troop. There’s three of them, providing some level of support against two adult males.

Their financial issues aside, I feel Orana would be wary, knowing how tenuous bachelor troops can be and knowing the possibility of a breakdown in the hierarchy is a very real possibility. In the event this occurred, it could then be extremely difficult to transfer out the male/males that didn’t fit in.

 

[Jambo]

100%. Melbourne worked wonders with the cards they were dealt. Breeding Motaba with a founder who had thus far failed to contribute to the population (by virtue of an infertile mate) was a masterstroke, especially considering this occurred within a troop led by said infertile silverback, who fortunately turned a blind eye.

I'm actually wondering whether Melbourne actually had those two separated and rotated them with the group of girls.

Case in point, I remember seeing a photo of Buluman in the gorilla grottoes taken in the 90's (by the time the main group had moved across to the newer exhibit), and recently a video which quite obviously shows a youthful Motaba in one of the grottoes climbing a pole to 'peek' across at the rest of the gorillas next door. Interestingly, this is something he was well known for doing, especially in his later years when he was in with his sons before their transfer to Werribee.

 

[Zoofan15]

I'm actually wondering whether Melbourne actually had those two separated and rotated them with the group of girls.

Case in point, I remember seeing a photo of Buluman in the gorilla grottoes taken in the 90's (by the time the main group had moved across to the newer exhibit), and recently a video which quite obviously shows a youthful Motaba in one of the grottoes climbing a pole to 'peek' across at the rest of the gorillas next door. Interestingly, this is something he was well known for doing, especially in his later years when he was in with his sons before their transfer to Werribee.

Initially (1990/1991) Buluman and Motaba cohabited as there was an article detailing how the young male would mate with Betsy right in front of Buluman, who gave no reaction (a mother raised silverback would have exploded).

I subsequently read how Motaba was seperated before the birth of his first son in 1991 as it was feared the then adolescent could harm him. I suspect by the time Bambuti was conceived three years later, Motaba was too old to risk reintegrating with Buluman - with Motaba likely seeking to challenge the elder male; which is likely where the rotation came in.

 

[Jambo]

Initially (1990/1991) Buluman and Motaba cohabited as there was an article detailing how the young male would mate with Betsy right in front of Buluman, who gave no reaction (a mother raised silverback would have exploded).

I subsequently read how Motaba was seperated before the birth of his first son in 1991 as it was feared the then adolescent could harm him. I suspect by the time Bambuti was conceived three years later, Motaba was too old to risk reintegrating with Buluman - with Motaba likely seeking to challenge the elder male; which is likely where the rotation came in.

Yes, that would make complete sense. Initially both Mzuri and Motaba were accommodated with the main troop in the new exhibit (it was them, Buluman, Betsy and Yuska). I also remember reading how the two males (born just six months apart) formed quite a close bond and often ran around up to mischief. Motaba was acquired after all; not only to breed the females, but also to provide Mzuri with companionship.

I recall one article mentioning along the lines of how Motaba was an 'inattentive father' to a young Buzandi and instead was often off with Mzuri. The pair were known for bashing the viewing glass to surprise guests.

Once Mzuri left, and Bambuti was born, there would've been a stark change within the troop's social dynamics so I do agree that at this point they probably resorted to rotating the two males especially given Motaba's age. Previously Buluman would've had little issue with Motaba and Mzuri due to their ages but this would've likely changed as they grew older.

Poor Rigo seemingly had the worst of this arrangement as he was apparently kept indoors more often than not (with the switched out male having access to the nearby grotto).

 

[Pertinax]

Previously Buluman would've had little issue with Motaba and Mzuri due to their ages but this would've likely changed as they grew older.

From what I know of Buluman's background, (and seeing him firsthand), I think its more likely Motaba would have become increasingly dominant over him as he grew and matured. I also remember seeing Motaba alone in the grotto enclosure after he was seperated from the group and repeatedly climbing up to look over the wall at his former group next door. I felt rather sorry for him as it was the first time I had ever seen a male removed from his group like that.

 

[Zoofan15]

From what I know of Buluman's background, (and seeing him firsthand), I think its more likely Motaba would have become increasingly dominant over him as he grew and matured. I also remember seeing Motaba alone in the grotto enclosure after he was seperated from the group and repeatedly climbing up to look over the wall at his former group next door. I felt rather sorry for him as it was the first time I had ever seen a male removed from his group like that.

Yes, my assumption is Motaba, fresh out his natal troop entered the Melbourne troop with the expectation he would be subordinate to the mature silverback. While Buluman was patient with the females, he clearly wasn’t a typical silverback in that he tolerated an adolescent male mating with his females.

As Motaba matured, his drive to challenge Buluman for control of the troop would have grown. Silverbacks have no problem suppressing their blackback sons, but Buluman would have been less equipped to deal with the challenges, especially given they were coming from a socially typical young male.

 

[Pertinax]

There's a parallel at Rostock Zoo in Germany, where Motaba's eldest brother Assumbo still lives- he must be the oldest male in Europe now. After several zoo homes he came to Rostock but he has never shown breeding interest. So they brought in a young (5 yrs old) male Kwame. Assumbo accepted him happily enough and as he grew he started mating the females, I don't think Assumbo showed any interest in that either. Now Kwame is a father and has become the group's silverback. Gradually he has pushed Assumbo into the background, though they lived together peacefully throughout until I think Assumbo has finally been seperated off but still has some contact with the females, not sure how but they can access his area at times I believe, or he theirs..

 

[Zorro]

Yet Melbourne still hasn't snatched up a few females where there's every opportunity to do so! The European coordinator would surely be glad to offload a few females to Australia. All of our zoos could pretty much do with additional females.

Most zoos would be very unwilling to take him on when they consider his past. Considering his value, it's likely it would be a bachelor troop if anything. And there's no guarantees he'll integrate well with other males. I guess it's worth trying but there does need to be a facility on the other end who's willing to take this risk on. Realistically, there'd be very little facilities.

The US SSP and the EEP in Europe have been running at capacity for quite some time and as it has already been stated young females have already been sent to European zoos, with this surplus and some restrictions on breeding makes me wonder as to why zoos in this country are not receiving any females in return how far will Melbourne zoo and Taronga zoo let things dwindle down to the bare minimum before they act?

 

[Tiger91]

The US SSP and the EEP in Europe have been running at capacity for quite some time and as it has already been stated young females have already been sent to European zoos, with this surplus and some restrictions on breeding makes me wonder as to why zoos in this country are not receiving any females in return how far will Melbourne zoo and Taronga zoo let things dwindle down to the bare minimum before they act?

At this point it has to be more of an our zoo managment and what they are willing to act on then the general management of gorillas from the SSP.

I do like the Idea of Melbourne transferring this troop as a whole out to Werribee. Then starting over with another troop. With current numbers in europe importing a 1:2 would be the ideal starting point and give them the ability to breed. But our zoo managment of some of the majour zoos can be a bit lack lustre.

 

[Zorro]

At this point it has to be more of an our zoo managment and what they are willing to act on then the general management of gorillas from the SSP.

I do like the Idea of Melbourne transferring this troop as a whole out to Werribee. Then starting over with another troop. With current numbers in europe importing a 1:2 would be the ideal starting point and give them the ability to breed. But our zoo managment of some of the majour zoos can be a bit lack lustre.

I agree with you zoo management appear to have taken their eye off the wheel the way things are going a small private zoo like Mogo could end up with the best Gorilla group in the country!

 

[Jambo]

From what I know of Buluman's background, (and seeing him firsthand), I think its more likely Motaba would have become increasingly dominant over him as he grew and matured. I also remember seeing Motaba alone in the grotto enclosure after he was seperated from the group and repeatedly climbing up to look over the wall at his former group next door. I felt rather sorry for him as it was the first time I had ever seen a male removed from his group like that.

From what I understand, Buluman was a very respectful and nurturing silverback so he effectively was utilised as the model silverback for the infants (Buzandi and Bambuti) during their infanthood.

I'm not sure how often the two males rotated use but I Imagine Motaba would be by himself more him often than not. When the Jersey girls (Julia and G Anne) arrived I believe they were actually introduced to just Motaba first in the grotto habitat.

I remember reading an article about Buluman and Besty being the most ecstatic out of all the gorillas upon their introductions to the new Gorilla Rainforest. Considering the conditions they were brought up in (effectively concrete cages), it's really nice to know they got to experience this naturalistic exhibit which was far ahead of it's time.

 

[Jambo]

I do like the Idea of Melbourne transferring this troop as a whole out to Werribee. Then starting over with another troop. With current numbers in europe importing a 1:2 would be the ideal starting point and give them the ability to breed. But our zoo managment of some of the majour zoos can be a bit lack lustre.

Once Motaba passes, they could pursue this idea maybe attempting to utilise one of his boys as the next silverbacks and then acquiring females from overseas.

It would be a really nice homecoming for Melbourne's famed gorilla troop which has really diminished in recent years. It would help reinstall public interest in them; having say, 'Yakini' as the silverback (son of the famous Motaba and Yuska, half brother of Mzuri). Would really do wonders popularity wise.

 

[Zoofan15]

I

From what I understand, Buluman was a very respectful and nurturing silverback so he effectively was utilised as the model silverback for the infants (Buzandi and Bambuti) during their infanthood.

I'm not sure how often the two males rotated use but I Imagine Motaba would be by himself more him often than not. When the Jersey girls (Julia and G Anne) arrived I believe they were actually introduced to just Motaba first in the grotto habitat.

I remember reading an article about Buluman and Besty being the most ecstatic out of all the gorillas upon their introductions to the new Gorilla Rainforest. Considering the conditions they were brought up in (effectively concrete cages), it's really nice to know they got to experience this naturalistic exhibit which was far ahead of it's time.

Darrill Clements book “Postcards from the Zoo” describe Buluman’s great patience with Betsy, who unfortunately had this habit of screaming hysterically for only minor reasons. This greatly declined upon her move to Melbourne, suggesting that being held with an albeit placid silverback in a 1.1 ratio within a small cage could have been the cause (as opposed to trauma from capture etc) which would present as a lifelong issue.

It’s testament to Motaba that he successfully mated with four socially deficient females, including two of which were previously rejected from Mzuri’s troop (and one of which was later fatally injured by Otana). Youth and inexperience of the silverback has been attributed to those incidents; but Motaba’s youth transcended any expectation we could have had of him.