Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

[Jambo]

I’ve often thought that Werribee’s sizeable gorilla exhibit (2.5 acres) is greatly under-utilised by the three males they have. With them ageing, it would be challenging to introduce further males now. Whether it would have been possible to have introduced the first batch of Taronga bachelors (Fataki, Fuzu and Mahali) is difficult to say. The oldest was only three years apart from Ganyeka; though 20 years Motaba’s junior.

Had Motaba not been in the equation, it may have worked; then Motaba could have formed a non-breeding troop with Julia and G-Anne at Orana instead circa 2013. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I would say it's possible. I've seen a few zoos overseas integrate younger males with males in their 20's. So once Motaba passes, I don't see why this shouldn't be attempted with surplus males born regionally. Kaius (2022) will be a male in strong position to potentially enter Werribee's bachelor troop if we are to assume the current Taronga males will all head down to Orana.

Introducing younger males is usually far more effective too since they usually take on subordinate positions to the much older and larger males pretty soon on. It's usually introducing adult silverback gorillas; where problems can occur.

 

[Zoofan15]

I would say it's possible. I've seen a few zoos overseas integrate younger males with males in their 20's. So once Motaba passes, I don't see why this shouldn't be attempted with surplus males born regionally. Kaius (2022) will be a male in strong position to potentially enter Werribee's bachelor troop if we are to assume the current Taronga males will all head down to Orana.

Introducing younger males is usually far more effective too since they usually take on subordinate positions to the much older and larger males pretty soon on. It's usually introducing adult silverback gorillas; where problems can occur.

The only concern I’d have over sending Kaius alone is that he’d be greatly out numbered by the resident males at Werribee and could become a target for aggression, even once settled into the group. Even introducing a pair of young males would be preferable.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of the low levels of breeding in the region that fewer cohorts of young males are being produced (with single males such as Otana at Melbourne; or potentially Kaius at Mogo) being even more of a challenge to place. It’s a contrast to the cohorts of three bachelor males that were bred at Taronga Zoo in the 2000’s and then again in the 2010’s; and prior to that, Melbourne’s duo of males born 1999/2000, who had a relatively young sire.

 

[Jambo]

The only concern I’d have over sending Kaius alone is that he’d be greatly out numbered by the resident males at Werribee and could become a target for aggression, even once settled into the group. Even introducing a pair of young males would be preferable.

It’s an unfortunate consequence of the low levels of breeding in the region that fewer cohorts of young males are being produced (with single males such as Otana at Melbourne; or potentially Kaius at Mogo) being even more of a challenge to place. It’s a contrast to the cohorts of three bachelor males that were bred at Taronga Zoo in the 2000’s and then again in the 2010’s; and prior to that, Melbourne’s duo of males born 1999/2000, who had a relatively young sire.

I've seen cases of a single male introduced. Usually with positive results. However I'd only suggested young Kaius being sent across in the event Motaba had passed!

I would absolutely love to see one of his two sons enter a breeding situation one day although I don't know how feasible this is due to them both being hand raised. Yakini would be the obvious candidate, and in that case perhaps introducing just Ganyeka and Kaius would be a better off situation (with the intention of adding more males in the future).

 

[Pertinax]

I would say it's possible. I've seen a few zoos overseas integrate younger males with males in their 20's.

It should be possible, but as mentioned its always a 'try it and see' situation. I seem to remember Howletts sometimes adding younger blackback males to their earliest male groups, without much problem. Longleat in UK also did this successfully. Generally the European male groups are pretty static though, they form them with similar aged individuals (sometimes these are related) or an older male with several younger ones, but once established, they then tend to leave it that way. The problem is adding any new ones later may upset the balance/dynamic and even cause fighting between the original ones. But it appears in the USA they move males around a lot more often so bachelor groups are more fluid.

 

[Jambo]

Presumably IF an import was made, it would be from Europe as Australian gorillas are part of/affiliated with, the EEP. Off hand I can think of pairs of females at both Blackpool (UK) and Rotterdam(Netherlands) which really need transfers. Blackpool have two halfsisters Meisie and Moanda aged 14 & 12, still living in their natal group. (I don't understand why they have not been moved earlier when most other young females e.g. at Bristol Zoo seem to get transferred when they reach around nine years old). Rotterdam on the other hand are going out of gorillas completely and in the process of disbanding their group. They now have only two females (mother and daughter,Ayana and Aya) left, together with a two/three year old male baby. So transferring them into another group becomes problematic while he is young.

Of course, no telling what will happen but in the realms of possibilities those are two examples.

On first glimpse, the Rotterdam trio wouldn't be suitable however I do note there are some added benefits with acquiring this trio.

First and foremost, they can arrive asap considering Rotterdam is disbanding their group and have been looking to do so for a while now.

Secondly they come from very well represented lines over in Europe so I'd assume the region as a whole wouldn't mind sending them across to Australia. Perhaps this is why they haven't been placed as of yet. This trio however are unrelated to all of Australia's stock which is equally welcoming.

Additionally, the trio are all of diverse age ranges and are all mother raised (therefore likely very socially competent individuals). They should stand the best chance of integrating with Otana (in the event they're imported).

Aya is almost 30 years old so the goal here will mainly be breeding from her soon to be 15 year old daughter, Ayba which would be preferable considering the amount of breeding recommendations our gorillas get.

And perhaps most appealing is the young Ajabu is virtually the same age as Kaius (just over half a year older). Considering the genetic value of this line, it's likely he'll end up in a bachelor group so the goal could be to end up pairing him with Kaius and then sending them both to a bachelor facility. This would resolve the concerns surrounding Kaius entering a bachelor group on his own.

Not to mention Ajabu recently turned three, so is now of adequate age to be introduced to a silverback (albeit one without a troop at this point).

 

[Jambo]

But it appears in the USA they move males around a lot more often so bachelor groups are more fluid.

I've noticed the USA seem to prioritise bachelor groups as a part of 'social development' for male gorillas. They move most of their male born gorillas into bachelor groups (even if the intention isn't for them to remain long term). And there's quite a few who are often moved into breeding situations after a decade or so in a bachelor group - which is effectively why there's a lot movement around to continuously keep bachelor groups at a decent number (following gorillas moving in/out).

 

[Pertinax]

I've noticed the USA seem to prioritise bachelor groups as a part of 'social development' for male gorillas. They move most of their male born gorillas into bachelor groups (even if the intention isn't for them to remain long term). And there's quite a few who are often moved into breeding situations after a decade or so in a bachelor group - which is effectively why there's a lot movement around to continuously keep bachelor groups at a decent number (following gorillas moving in/out).

Yes, and the American SSP very strongly doesn't adopt the dreaded EEP policy of castrating young males. This has caused a lot of contoversy but in order to take pressure off the available places in male group housing, it is still being done almost routinely with males that are not genetically valauable to the population as a whole. It is kept quiet of course but the list gets longer all the time...

 

[Zoofan15]

Yes, and the American SSP very strongly doesn't adopt the dreaded EEP policy of castrating young males. This has caused a lot of contoversy but in order to take pressure off the available places in male group housing, it is still being done almost routinely with males that are not genetically valauable to the population as a whole. It is kept quiet of course but the list gets longer all the time...

I remember how disappointed I was to hear Ajabu (2016) at Prague had been castrated given Shinda (1991) had effectively been trying for 12 years to conceive, intially blamed on a long lasting contraceptive implant applied to her at Taronga Zoo prior to her export. Frala’s first born son was similarly castrated.

It sounds like bachelor troops are on the whole effective and serve well as reservoirs of adolescent males to mature into young adulthood before being given the responsibility/pressure of heading up a breeding troop - something often afforded to blackbacks in decades past.

 

[Pertinax]

Jahari at Lisbon is a young male from a very under-represented line on his father's side. (His mother is Anguka from the Taronga group). But apparently there was talk of even him being castrated. Fortunately they appear to have realised what a mistake that would have been and it didn't happen.

I think there is a sufficient 'pool' of adult males in bachelor groups around nowadays to avoid the mistakes of the past in using males that are too young to oversee a group. At least most of the time.

 

[Zoofan15]

Jahari at Lisbon is a young male from a very unrepresented line on his father's side. (His mother is Anguka from the Taronga group). But apparently there was talk of even him being castrated. Fortunately they appear to realise what a mistake that would have been and it didn't happen.

I’m glad to hear it. With Fabumi almost certainly headed for a lifetime living in a bachelor troop, Jahari will likely be Frala’s sole representation going forward. Fataki and Fuzu are in a bachelor pairing; there’s apparently no intention to breed from Shinda at Prague (only Kijivu and Dumi were taken off contraception); and for reasons unknown, Anguka hasn’t bred in the eight years since her last infant was produced.

Fikiri’s death at Taronga was a tragedy in so many ways, but not least for it cut short what could have been a long and successful lifetime of breeding (likely at Melbourne or Mogo).

 

[Younesmark]

Can someone confirm if the Gorillas at Taronga are intended to be phased out in the near future ?

I heard when I was walking from the wharf ( bottom entrance) from a supposed worker that after the elephants; Gorillas would then be next as part of the next phase out .

If so , It would be a disappointing move as I consider elephants , rhinos, hippos , giraffes , zebras , chimps , lions and tigers as major draw cards to city zoos .

Wish I was born in the late 70’s when species were much more diverse than present day .

 

[Zoofan15]

Can someone confirm if the Gorillas at Taronga are intended to be phased out in the near future ?

I heard when I was walking from the wharf ( bottom entrance) from a supposed worker that after the elephants; Gorillas would then be next as part of the next phase out .

If so , It would be a disappointing move as I consider elephants , rhinos, hippos , giraffes , zebras , chimps , lions and tigers as major draw cards to city zoos .

Wish I was born in the late 70’s when species were much more diverse than present day .

We’ve yet to receive confirmation either way. There’s been speculation they will be; but considering they’re such big draw cards, I find it difficult to imagine. With the elephants going, they’re one of Taronga’s points of difference in relation to Sydney Zoo.

At a minimum, I see Taronga continuing with a bachelor troop; but ideally this will be alongside a breeding troop. This was originally outlined in plans for a Congo precinct, which will no longer proceed as planned; but will hopefully be revised to at least retain gorillas long term.

I agree the diversity of species across the region’s main zoos in decades past was astonishing; though I feel we’d be affronted by the standard of accomodation they were held in.

 

[Jambo]

Can someone confirm if the Gorillas at Taronga are intended to be phased out in the near future ?

I heard when I was walking from the wharf ( bottom entrance) from a supposed worker that after the elephants; Gorillas would then be next as part of the next phase out .

If so , It would be a disappointing move as I consider elephants , rhinos, hippos , giraffes , zebras , chimps , lions and tigers as major draw cards to city zoos .

Wish I was born in the late 70’s when species were much more diverse than present day .

They were planned to get a new expansion apart of a 'Congo' precinct but this has been all but scrapped at this point.

Going forward their current exhibit isn't exactly the best for breeding and could really do with improvements so the lack of interest in a Congo precinct which would've effectively had them as the nucleus of the precinct is baffling to me.

It would be a huge huge shame if Taronga decided to phase out gorillas. There's absolutely no reason for them too and regionally, it would reduce the population to just two breeding holders...

 

[Younesmark]

My thought exactly @Zoofan15 & @Jambo . Mind you ; when I visited last Monday ; I asked one of the workers down by the former camel / elephant exhibit and she said that it was brought up in conversation as they don’t like to be on display and in “the public eye” . She then followed up by saying that the current Gorilla exhibit would be merged into the newly constructed ARC .

Their exhibit is long overdue for a revamp . And should they wish to phase them out ; at least consider retaining a bachelor group in an updated exhibit with one-way viewing windows which will allow visitors to look in while restricting the gorillas from Looking out ; in an attempt to make them feel less anxious and to encourage them to engage in species specific behaviours . Win- Win in my opinion .

 

[Zoofan15]

My thought exactly @Zoofan15 & @Jambo . Mind you ; when I visited last Monday ; I asked one of the workers down by the former camel / elephant exhibit and she said that it was brought up in conversation as they don’t like to be on display and in “the public eye” . She then followed up by saying that the current Gorilla exhibit would be merged into the newly constructed ARC .

Their exhibit is long overdue for a revamp . And should they wish to phase them out ; at least consider retaining a bachelor group in an updated exhibit with one-way viewing windows which will allow visitors to look in while restricting the gorillas from Looking out ; in an attempt to make them feel less anxious and to encourage them to engage in species specific behaviours . Win- Win in my opinion .

I agree the exhibit could be better designed as the gorillas do tend to spend a lot of time indoors. The three adolescent males were mostly hanging out in the playroom on my visit; though as a whole the troop were reasonably dynamic and moving around.

If Dubbo came into play, they could have an amazing set up across the two zoos - perhaps bachelors at Taronga; and a breeding troop at the larger open range site, where there’d be ample room for a large exhibit.

They could really double down and in addition, build a second bachelor exhibit at Dubbo. The adolescents Taronga has now could easily live another 30 years, during which time several more male infants can be expected to come along should breeding continue.

 

[Jambo]

My thought exactly @Zoofan15 & @Jambo . Mind you ; when I visited last Monday ; I asked one of the workers down by the former camel / elephant exhibit and she said that it was brought up in conversation as they don’t like to be on display and in “the public eye” . She then followed up by saying that the current Gorilla exhibit would be merged into the newly constructed ARC .

Their exhibit is long overdue for a revamp . And should they wish to phase them out ; at least consider retaining a bachelor group in an updated exhibit with one-way viewing windows which will allow visitors to look in while restricting the gorillas from Looking out ; in an attempt to make them feel less anxious and to encourage them to engage in species specific behaviours . Win- Win in my opinion .

Well I'm not surprised - the exhibit design doesn't really do much for 'privacy'. Much unlike Melbourne's. Over the years Taronga has attempted to install bushes around the exhibit to serve as privacy screens and it's no surprise I tend to notice a lot of the gorillas like to spend most of their time there.

If they don't intend to invest and build a new enclosure for them than I can see why they're considering phasing them out which is a real shame. Taronga needs to start putting their money in the right places imo before things get too out of hand with phase outs.

 

[Younesmark]

Well I'm not surprised - the exhibit design doesn't really do much for 'privacy'. Much unlike Melbourne's. Over the years Taronga has attempted to install bushes around the exhibit to serve as privacy screens and it's no surprise I tend to notice a lot of the gorillas like to spend most of their time there.

If they don't intend to invest and build a new enclosure for them than I can see why they're considering phasing them out which is a real shame. Taronga needs to start putting their money in the right places imo before things get too out of hand with phase outs.

Badly! I feel as though those making decisions about animal imports or phase- outs ; do so with their eyes closed .

I can assure you that us Zoochatians would do a better job with species management than half those airheads

 

[Zoofan15]

Badly! I feel as though those making decisions about animal imports or phase- outs ; do so with their eyes closed .

I can assure you that us Zoochatians would do a better job with species management than half those airheads

I know a number of us have been baffled by the decision to phase out charismatic species such as Mandrill and the inability to coordinate a viable population size of countless other species to ensure their long term future in the region. I personally have been particularly underwhelmed by the way the Sumatran tiger breeding programme has been run of late, with two zoos having to go into generics due to a supposed lack of purebred Sumatran tigers.

There’s a strong focus on native species across several main zoos, which although is important; the majority of visitors are there to see exotic megafauna - with great apes, bears and big cats remaining as popular with the general public as they were a century ago.

 

[Pertinax]

and for reasons unknown, Anguka hasn’t bred in the eight years since her last infant was produced.

I've tried to find out why Anguka hasn't bred again but with no success. There was a previous baby that didn't survive, then Jahari and then no more. Contracepted? On the father's side Jahari has very few relatives indeed, he's the only offspring of his father, and only great grandchild of a wildcaught female. He must be one of the males with the lowest(?) mean kinship in Europe and I feel sure he will eventually get a group. I forgot he is related to Frala in Taronga also..

 

[Zoofan15]

I've tried to find out why Anguka hasn't bred again but with no success. There was a previous baby that didn't survive, then Jahari and then no more. Contracepted? On the father's side Jahari has very few relatives indeed, he's the only offspring of his father, and only great grandchild of a wildcaught female. He must be one of the males with the lowest(?) mean kinship in Europe and I feel sure he will eventually get a group. I forgot he is related to Frala in Taronga also..

It appears Anguka had three offspring all up:

0.1 Unnamed - Stillborn 12/10/2010
1.0 Unnamed - Born 20/08/2012 (Died 15/03/2013)
1.0 Jahari - Born 15/04/2015

I too am surprised she’s had no further births, but wondered if it was due to Europe being close to or at capacity and it deemed to place subsequent offspring.

Anguka is 31 years old, so has less than a decade (realistically five years or so) to produce another infant. There were attempts to breed from females like Kishka (1978) at Jersey in her late 30’s, which sadly never eventuated in a successful pregnancy.