Melbourne Zoo The Future of Zoos Victoria 2025 (Speculation/Fantasy)

[Zoofan15]

The thing with gorillas is that the larger the troop the more engaging they are. Melbournes troop of 3 now 2, has lost most of the engagement a larger troop especially one with infants has. Even a bachelor troop with 5 or 6 males would be more eventful and engaging.

Hopefully we will see a new litter of snow leopards again sometime in the future. They are an importable species and there is a few holders still. So hopefully Melbourne will continue with this species.

Unfortunately there’s no demand in the region for Snow leopards at the moment; and due to the challenges in providing for their needs, new holders are unlikely to arise (with the alternative of Sri Lankan leopard proving more practical).

Billabong are reportedly hoping to continue with Snow leopard and planning to import. An alternative could be for them to receive Melbourne’s pair after they produce one more litter, with a cub staying on to breed with a new mate.

 

[Jambo]

The thing with gorillas is that the larger the troop the more engaging they are. Melbournes troop of 3 now 2, has lost most of the engagement a larger troop especially one with infants has. Even a bachelor troop with 5 or 6 males would be more eventful and engaging.

If they were younger males, perhaps. Most males tend to just sit around, there's not a lot of movement involved - Werribee's boys especially have their own spots around the exhibit where you can pretty much guarantee to find them.

Breeding groups are by far the most active, usually led by the youngsters and infants who instigate play amongst one another and even the adults.

Melbourne by far have the best gorilla facility regionally so I'd love to see them return their focus to breeding more numbers in the future (as they once did in the past).

 

[The Sleepy Hippo]

The thing with gorillas is that the larger the troop the more engaging they are. Melbournes troop of 3 now 2, has lost most of the engagement a larger troop especially one with infants has. Even a bachelor troop with 5 or 6 males would be more eventful and engaging.

Hopefully we will see a new litter of snow leopards again sometime in the future. They are an importable species and there is a few holders still. So hopefully Melbourne will continue with this species.

When I did the behind the scenes Snow Leopard experience last July they said they are with Snow Leopards for the long term but there is no current plans to breed - down to the lack of holders in the region (edit - and directions from the breeding program).

It is expensive to hold them. Don't quite be but I think the current facilities cost something around $7 million.

Costly but I still think that Kyabram Fauna Park should become a second holder in Victoria. Would be a drawcard to visit that facility, and not directly compete with MZ due to the distance.

 

[Zoofan15]

When I did the behind the scenes Snow Leopard experience last July they said they are with Snow Leopards for the long term but there is no current plans to breed - down to the lack of holders in the region.

It is expensive to hold them. Don't quite be but I think the current facilities cost something around $7 million.

Costly but I still think that Kyabram Fauna Park should become a second holder in Victoria. Would be a drawcard to visit that facility, and not directly compete with MZ due to the distance.

I’ve heard $9 million quoted for the second phase of the Carnivores precinct (which included the Snow leopard exhibits).

I really hope coming under the Zoos Victoria umbrella will enable Kyabram to progress beyond what’s already outlined in their masterplan. To my knowledge, nobody from here has made a visit for the sole purpose of visiting Kyabram (as opposed to passing through); and with no drawcards, it’s easy to see why.

I have long considered Sri Lankan leopard ideal for Kyabram, but a second Zoos Victoria Snow leopard holder would be equally valuable.

 

[Jambo]

When I did the behind the scenes Snow Leopard experience last July they said they are with Snow Leopards for the long term but there is no current plans to breed - down to the lack of holders in the region (edit - and directions from the breeding program).

It is expensive to hold them. Don't quite be but I think the current facilities cost something around $7 million.

Costly but I still think that Kyabram Fauna Park should become a second holder in Victoria. Would be a drawcard to visit that facility, and not directly compete with MZ due to the distance.

Snow Leopards at Kyabram sounds like a great idea. They be a huge drawcard, and to mention provide an interesting comparison for those who think there's leopards living out there in the Victorian bush.

I'm of the opinion Zoos Victoria should look to have all their four facilities (Melbourne, Werribee, Healesville and Kyabram) all operating whereby they compliment each other and focusing on their own specific areas. Similar to the four WCS in New York which has Bronx (it's open range/draw card collection), Central Park (focuses on biomes with a lot of smaller species), Queens (a native themed zoo) and Prospect Park (a childrens zoo).

Since we have already have enough 'childrens zoos' within the facilities already - I would love to have a facility that focused on individual biomes like Central Park. Central Park do have a 'Temperate Forest' area dedicated to Snow Leopards, Snow Monkeys, Cranes and Red Pandas.

 

[Zoofan15]

Snow Leopards at Kyabram sounds like a great idea. They be a huge drawcard, and to mention provide an interesting comparison for those who think there's leopards living out there in the Victorian bush.

I'm of the opinion Zoos Victoria should look to have all their four facilities (Melbourne, Werribee, Healesville and Kyabram) all operating whereby they compliment each other and focusing on their own specific areas. Similar to the four WCS in New York which has Bronx (it's open range/draw card collection), Central Park (focuses on biomes with a lot of smaller species), Queens (a native themed zoo) and Prospect Park (a childrens zoo).

Since we have already have enough 'childrens zoos' within the facilities already - I would love to have a facility that focused on individual biomes like Central Park. Central Park do have a 'Temperate Forest' area dedicated to Snow Leopards, Snow Monkeys, Cranes and Red Pandas.

I fully agree Zoos Victoria’s facilities should work to compliment each other:

Healesville - Native species
Werribee - Savannah
Melbourne - Rainforest
Kyabram - Start up zoo


Within these themes, we can expect overlaps. Melbourne will continue with a number of native species to satisfy international visitors; as will Werribee, due to having the room for large off-display facilities for breed and release. However, I feel Melbourne could scale back on the African species already held at Werribee. I’d rather see Eastern bongo than Lowland nyala for example.

 

[Jambo]

I fully agree Zoos Victoria’s facilities should work to compliment each other:

Healesville - Native species
Werribee - Savannah
Melbourne - Rainforest
Kyabram - Start up zoo


Within these themes, we can expect overlaps. Melbourne will continue with a number of native species to satisfy international visitors; as will Werribee, due to having the room for large off-display facilities for breed and release. However, I feel Melbourne could scale back on the African species already held at Werribee. I’d rather see Eastern bongo than Lowland nyala for example.

We can expect double ups with native species; Zoos Victoria have a strong conservation push with their natives in particular. To be fair, most international tourists expect to see 'Australian' animals when visiting an Australian Zoo so it's fair enough for each facility to have a small area focusing on them.

Assuming Melbourne heads with an entirely 'Rainforest' theme long term, they're quite close to achieving it.

The Seal Loop is already up in the air with many wondering whether Melbourne will continue to hold Little Penguins long term. If anything they could fit into the Australian trail easily, or even just be sent over to Kyabram to give them another drawcard species.

Aside from that, it's really only the African species (Giraffes, Meerkats, Nyala, Lions and Baboons) that wouldn't align with the Rainforest theming. All species (besides baboons) are already accommodated at Werribee and Melbourne could easily replace them all with their 'Rainforest counterparts' ie. Bongo for Nyala, Mandrill for Baboons ect.

 

[Zoofan15]

We can expect double ups with native species; Zoos Victoria have a strong conservation push with their natives in particular. To be fair, most international tourists expect to see 'Australian' animals when visiting an Australian Zoo so it's fair enough for each facility to have a small area focusing on them.

Assuming Melbourne heads with an entirely 'Rainforest' theme long term, they're quite close to achieving it.

The Seal Loop is already up in the air with many wondering whether Melbourne will continue to hold Little Penguins long term. If anything they could fit into the Australian trail easily, or even just be sent over to Kyabram to give them another drawcard species.

Aside from that, it's really only the African species (Giraffes, Meerkats, Nyala, Lions and Baboons) that wouldn't align with the Rainforest theming. All species (besides baboons) are already accommodated at Werribee and Melbourne could easily replace them all with their 'Rainforest counterparts' ie. Bongo for Nyala, Mandrill for Baboons ect.

I could easily see Hamadryas baboon transferring to Werribee long term, which would have the space to support a larger troop. The baboon exhibit is adequate in the current state for a troop of 20-25 baboons, so it’s not urgent by any means; but something I’d consider a natural progression with ever evolving perceptions on exhibit standards (the exhibit reportedly had a capacity of 40 baboons upon opening day, which is hard to envisage over a decade later).

My preference would be to see Giraffe and African lion accommodated soley at Werribee long term (with the latter replaced by Sri Lankan leopard); but like Adelaide, I assume Melbourne will retain them to satisfy expectations of visitors unable to visit both. Melbourne is one of Australia’s top zoos and anyone visiting would expect to see lions, tigers, great apes and giraffes at a minimum; as well as overseas visitors wanting to see the requisite native species.

The rainforest themeing could be:

- Central Africa (gorillas, pygmy hippo etc)
- South East Asia (tigers, orangutans etc)
- Tropical North Queensland (cassowary etc)
- Amazon (small monkeys, sloths etc)

 

[Jambo]

I could easily see Hamadryas baboon transferring to Werribee long term, which would have the space to support a larger troop. The baboon exhibit is adequate in the current state for a troop of 20-25 baboons, so it’s not urgent by any means; but something I’d consider a natural progression with ever evolving perceptions on exhibit standards (the exhibit reportedly had a capacity of 40 baboons upon opening day, which is hard to envisage over a decade later).

My preference would be to see Giraffe and African lion accommodated soley at Werribee long term (with the latter replaced by Sri Lankan leopard); but like Adelaide, I assume Melbourne will retain them to satisfy expectations of visitors unable to visit both. Melbourne is one of Australia’s top zoos and anyone visiting would expect to see lions, tigers, great apes and giraffes at a minimum; as well as overseas visitors wanting to see the requisite native species.

The rainforest themeing could be:

- Central Africa (gorillas, pygmy hippo etc)
- South East Asia (tigers, orangutans etc)
- Tropical North Queensland (cassowary etc)
- Amazon (small monkeys, sloths etc)

Well it's not surprising they considered the current exhibit capable of holding forty baboons when you consider the former baboon cages were then deemed of 'comfortable' size for around ten or so baboons and were less than a quarter of the size of the entire new habitat.

Werribee's current gorilla habitat would be very well suited for a large troop of baboons (numbering in their forty's) and constant breeding would certainly make an engaging display - especially with those numbers.

I wouldn't be surprised if we reach the point in twenty or so years time where Melbourne has decided to phase out both their Giraffes and Zebra. Werribee has the space to breed Giraffes; I don't see why they haven't just considered holding the bachelor herd elsewhere in the zoo (the waterhole drivethrough comes to mind). Additionally, Melbourne's current Lion exhibit is already feeling quite small only a decade after it first opened. With standards evolving, it's quite possible the current exhibit may be deemed inadequate in the long term. Werribee currently has two exhibits (with the plan for an expansion) so if that goes ahead there will be little reason to hold Lions following the passing of their current pair.

On the theming, Melbourne essentially already have two trails dedicated to the African Rainforest and South East Asia. Assuming Growing Wild is retained (probable), the areas of interest for the other two precincts would obviously be the Main trail (where the Giraffes, Baboons and Nyala are) and the Carnivores precinct.

The Main trail area would be perfect for the Tropical North Queensland, considering it's close proximity to the actual Australian precinct. It would be nice to have species like Tree Kangaroos, Cassowary and Koala displayed. The Koalas especially could do with a new enclosure. I'd also love to see a Tropical Dome, dedicated to the smaller reptile and amphibian species you'd find up North (like Freshwater Crocodile).

The Carnivores Trail would be the obvious choice for the Amazon precinct. They already have a few larger exhibits that could easily be converted for larger species like Brazilian Tapir and Andean Bear.

 

[Zoofan15]

Well it's not surprising they considered the current exhibit capable of holding forty baboons when you consider the former baboon cages were then deemed of 'comfortable' size for around ten or so baboons and were less than a quarter of the size of the entire new habitat.

Werribee's current gorilla habitat would be very well suited for a large troop of baboons (numbering in their forty's) and constant breeding would certainly make an engaging display - especially with those numbers.

I wouldn't be surprised if we reach the point in twenty or so years time where Melbourne has decided to phase out both their Giraffes and Zebra. Werribee has the space to breed Giraffes; I don't see why they haven't just considered holding the bachelor herd elsewhere in the zoo (the waterhole drivethrough comes to mind). Additionally, Melbourne's current Lion exhibit is already feeling quite small only a decade after it first opened. With standards evolving, it's quite possible the current exhibit may be deemed inadequate in the long term. Werribee currently has two exhibits (with the plan for an expansion) so if that goes ahead there will be little reason to hold Lions following the passing of their current pair.

On the theming, Melbourne essentially already have two trails dedicated to the African Rainforest and South East Asia. Assuming Growing Wild is retained (probable), the areas of interest for the other two precincts would obviously be the Main trail (where the Giraffes, Baboons and Nyala are) and the Carnivores precinct.

The Main trail area would be perfect for the Tropical North Queensland, considering it's close proximity to the actual Australian precinct. It would be nice to have species like Tree Kangaroos, Cassowary and Koala displayed. The Koalas especially could do with a new enclosure. I'd also love to see a Tropical Dome, dedicated to the smaller reptile and amphibian species you'd find up North (like Freshwater Crocodile).

The Carnivores Trail would be the obvious choice for the Amazon precinct. They already have a few larger exhibits that could easily be converted for larger species like Brazilian Tapir and Andean Bear.

The sizeable gorilla exhibit at Werribee is greatly under-utilised by the troop of three male gorillas. It would be more suitable for either a breeding troop; or a larger bachelor troop, including energetic adolescent males (I acknowledge two of the current males were adolescents upon their arrival). Hamadryas baboon would be an even better fit, with the expansive exhibit enabling multiple harems to disperse and forage throughout the day. The visitors would find the interactions of such a large troop fascinating to watch; with something going on at nearly every viewing point.

Melbourne’s current lion exhibit is a poor replacement for the Lion Park. They would be much better off accommodated at Werribee, which could run multiple groupings across the three exhibits.

After receiving five Melbourne bred male giraffes from 1984-1991, Werribee imported a 1.1 pair from New Zealand in 1994 and 1995. The female died 10 months later, but presumably the plan was to establish a breeding herd of giraffe at Werribee alongside the bachelor herd. A year later, Melbourne imported a female Rothschild’s from Europe and breeding continue at Melbourne for the next decade; with Werribee never again holding a female.

 

[Jambo]

After receiving five Melbourne bred male giraffes from 1984-1991, Werribee imported a 1.1 pair from New Zealand in 1994 and 1995. The female died 10 months later, but presumably the plan was to establish a breeding herd of giraffe at Werribee alongside the bachelor herd. A year later, Melbourne imported a female Rothschild’s from Europe and breeding continue at Melbourne for the next decade; with Werribee never again holding a female.

I think perhaps the plan was then for the female to be transferred on to Melbourne. Giraffes have to be quarantined upon arriving from NZ (the same was done with Nakuru) and Melbourne have elected to do this at Werribee in the past as Melbourne don't have the facilities for this.

I don't know why she remained at Werribee for so long but if she was acquired in 1995, Melbourne would've been without giraffes and could've been renovating the exhibit in the meantime. They may have also been waiting on a male to arrive (instead of sending her over just to be by herself).

 

[The Sleepy Hippo]

Growing Wild - although not likely to change anytime soon, if not made into an integrated South American precinct (as I described a few weeks back), I do also think it could be a good compact zone to display all 27 Priority Species, as a flagship precinct to promote Zoos Victoria's Fighting Extinction mission. Could also then mean that where any are currently displayed in the zoo currently could be freed up for new species there. A small nocturnal house, a small reptile house, several modern aviaries, and a few open enclosures could all fit in this space, push the zoos mission, and have good density and variation in species within the precinct. Meerkats can all leave for Werribee, and the Giant Tortoises all consolidate down at the Reptile House.

 

[Zoofan15]

Growing Wild - although not likely to change anytime soon, if not made into an integrated South American precinct (as I described a few weeks back), I do also think it could be a good compact zone to display all 27 Priority Species, as a flagship precinct to promote Zoos Victoria's Fighting Extinction mission. Could also then mean that where any are currently displayed in the zoo currently could be freed up for new species there. A small nocturnal house, a small reptile house, several modern aviaries, and a few open enclosures could all fit in this space, push the zoos mission, and have good density and variation in species within the precinct. Meerkats can all leave for Werribee, and the Giant Tortoises all consolidate down at the Reptile House.

I love this idea. It’d give the precinct a real focus and effectively convey a conservation message regarding Zoos Victoria’s work. Most of the species are small, otherwise fitting 27 species into Growing Wild would appear a daunting task.

The only limiting factor is species like Plains wanderer, which are highly sensitive and thus better accommodated at Werribee. In their place, I’m thinking of a screen that allows visitors to track a released bird; or a real time video of an incubated egg hatching or something to that effect.

27 Priority Species Precinct

Mammals:

Tasmanian devil
Brush-tailed rock-wallaby
Leadbeater’s possum
Mountain pygmy-possum
Eastern barred bandicoot
Pookila
Smoky mouse
Southern bent-wing bat

Birds:

Helmeted honeyeater
Mallee emu-wren
Orange-bellied parrot
Plains-wanderer
Regent honeyeater
Swift parrot

Reptiles:

Alpine she-oak skink
Guthega skink
Victorian grassland earless dragon

Amphibians:

Baw Baw frog
Southern giant burrowing frog
Large brown tree frog
Northern corroboree frog
Southern corroboree frog
Spotted tree frog
Southern barred frog

Invertebrates:

Lord Howe Island stick insect
Key’s Matchstick grasshopper
Golden-rayed blue butterfly

 

[Jambo]

I love this idea. It’d give the precinct a real focus and effectively convey a conservation message regarding Zoos Victoria’s work. Most of the species are small, otherwise fitting 27 species into Growing Wild would appear a daunting task.

The only limiting factor is species like Plains wanderer, which are highly sensitive and thus better accommodated at Werribee. In their place, I’m thinking of a screen that allows visitors to track a released bird; or a real time video of an incubated egg hatching or something to that effect.

27 Priority Species Precinct

Mammals:

Tasmanian devil
Brush-tailed rock-wallaby
Leadbeater’s possum
Mountain pygmy-possum
Eastern barred bandicoot
Pookila
Smoky mouse
Southern bent-wing bat

Birds:

Helmeted honeyeater
Mallee emu-wren
Orange-bellied parrot
Plains-wanderer
Regent honeyeater
Swift parrot

Reptiles:

Alpine she-oak skink
Guthega skink
Victorian grassland earless dragon

Amphibians:

Baw Baw frog
Southern giant burrowing frog
Large brown tree frog
Northern corroboree frog
Southern corroboree frog
Spotted tree frog
Southern barred frog

Invertebrates:

Lord Howe Island stick insect
Key’s Matchstick grasshopper
Golden-rayed blue butterfly

I too much like the idea. Personally it would be a better education endeavor than whatever Growing Wild is.

They don't even need to display all of the species - just some representing each of the classes mentioned above.

Ie. They could have aviaries to display Helmeted Honeyeater, Orange Bellied Parrots and Swift Parrot with these animals essentially operating as 'ambassador animals', however they could also incorporate other signage and displays to reflect the other species of bird they're also focused on.

Most of the Frog species are already displayed within the Frog House, and they already have the small indoor mini reptile house which could be used for the six reptile and invertebrate species (perhaps excluding the Golden rayed blue butterfly).

 

[Zoofan15]

I too much like the idea. Personally it would be a better education endeavor than whatever Growing Wild is.

They don't even need to display all of the species - just some representing each of the classes mentioned above.

Ie. They could have aviaries to display Helmeted Honeyeater, Orange Bellied Parrots and Swift Parrot with these animals essentially operating as 'ambassador animals', however they could also incorporate other signage and displays to reflect the other species of bird they're also focused on.

Most of the Frog species are already displayed within the Frog House, and they already have the small indoor mini reptile house which could be used for the six reptile and invertebrate species (perhaps excluding the Golden rayed blue butterfly).

The precinct would be such a valuable asset in promoting the work Zoos Victoria does with these 27 species that the average visitor wouldn’t otherwise be aware of. There’s countless opportunities for visitor engagement (scanning codes to record all 27 species and winning a prize etc). It would surely rejuvenate interest beyond whatever Growing Wild set out to achieve (with the outcome being a rather jumbled precinct of natives, meerkats and tortoises).

I imagined the butterflies would be represented by their larval stage (i.e. caterpillars); but that would depend on how regularly Zoos Victoria are interested in breeding them and whether they want to go to the effort of transferring a bunch of bugs between exhibits/sites.

 

[Zoofan15]

It would be great if Melbourne would build a South American precinct in the now vacant trail of the elephants.

I’m anticipating a wave of South American acquisitions, but I’m of the opinion it will be less cohesive in layout (spread across three precincts):

Forests of Wonder:

Brazilian tapir moving into one of the vacant elephant paddocks (most likely the bull paddock, with the pool) seems like a reasonably sure bet; especially with the tapir expected to be imported within the next year (and Melbourne have an empty exhibit).

Gorilla Rainforest:

The Xenarthra IRA will still be at least a couple of years away (assuming similar timeframes to previous IRA’s). What I’m expecting is a minor redevelopment of the Treetops Trail to accomodate species like sloth alongside the small monkeys.

Lion Gorge:

I think we can all agree that replacing Brown coati with Binturong has been a fail. Nobody sees them! In light of the news nine coati are to be imported this year (and taking into account the Binturong Melbourne Zoo imported are middle age), I’m thinking the Binturong were only ever a temporary replacement and Melbourne Zoo aim to have coati back in there within the next five years.

 

[ElephasMaximus]

Brazilian tapir moving into one of the vacant elephant paddocks (most likely the bull paddock, with the pool) seems like a reasonably sure bet; especially with the tapir expected to be imported within the next year (and Melbourne have an empty exhibit).

The Xenarthra IRA will still be at least a couple of years away (assuming similar timeframes to previous IRA’s). What I’m expecting is a minor redevelopment of the Treetops Trail to accomodate species like sloth alongside the small monkeys.

I think we can all agree that replacing Brown coati with Binturong has been a fail. Nobody sees them! In light of the news nine coati are to be imported this year (and taking into account the Binturong Melbourne Zoo imported are middle age), I’m thinking the Binturong were only ever a temporary replacement and Melbourne Zoo aim to have coati back in there within the next five years.

I'm looking forward to the region's renewed interest in South American species. I know we tend to complain about import restrictions in general, but it does feel like South America in particular represents a gap in our collections where Africa and Asia don't. It feel like we never have quite enough species to form a proper stand-alone South American exhibit.

Given that jaguar aren't an option, I think a good approach for SA exhibits going forward is to focus less on charismatic megafauna and more on biodiversity. Highlight how SA is home to unique species with few or no close relatives from the old word. I'm thinking exhibits heavy on reptiles, fish, and insects, with monkeys overhead and xenarthrans for flavour. The only thing really lacking would be a wide variety of birds, but I guess you can't have everything

 

[austrlain zoo gower]

I think it is likely coati will return to the enclosure and binturong possible moved to forest of wonder, maybe in the squirrel monkey forest harvest enclosure

 

[Zoofan15]

I'm looking forward to the region's renewed interest in South American species. I know we tend to complain about import restrictions in general, but it does feel like South America in particular represents a gap in our collections where Africa and Asia don't. It feel like we never have quite enough species to form a proper stand-alone South American exhibit.

Given that jaguar aren't an option, I think a good approach for SA exhibits going forward is to focus less on charismatic megafauna and more on biodiversity. Highlight how SA is home to unique species with few or no close relatives from the old word. I'm thinking exhibits heavy on reptiles, fish, and insects, with monkeys overhead and xenarthrans for flavour. The only thing really lacking would be a wide variety of birds, but I guess you can't have everything

I fully agree. Africa and Asia have (even historically) dominated collections due to the majority of charismatic megafauna being from those regions. Along with river dolphins (which have zero chance of being acquired), Jaguar are the South American species which would most excite the general public - and it’s a harsh reality that even they would play second fiddle to lions and tigers in the eyes of the public.

Big cats and great apes will remain Melbourne Zoo’s drawcards; but the second and third tier species contribute to an engaging visit. The goal of any tourism facility is to extend the duration of the visit; and once getting people through the gates to see big cats and great apes, a series of exhibits of lower profile species will keep them occupied. In Melbourne’s case, this will be the baboons; and any number of South American species.

Like you say, the import restrictions are limiting; but they are what they are and I continue to be impressed by how our region’s zoos are working within them to progress.

 

[Jambo]

I think it is likely coati will return to the enclosure and binturong possible moved to forest of wonder, maybe in the squirrel monkey forest harvest enclosure

With only two Squirell Monkeys remaining in that enclosure, I could see this being a possibility.

Keep in mind, the previous Binturong pair used to reside in that enclosure and it was specifically re-designed for them, with the sleeping huts put right at the front of the mesh - allowing for adequate viewing.