North American Elephant Population Shift and Transfer Ideas

[The Horse Boy]

Hello everyone. Based on all the good ideas being discussed on the North American African and Asian Elephant Discussion and Speculation thread and the thread I made earlier about which American zoos will phase out or keep both elephant breeds longer term, I thought I'd make a hypothetical population shift, including bull swaps in the future. I will not include facilities with an uncertain future regarding elephants or with definite phase-outs.

Please feel free to share your opinions of my ideas if they are good or should be changed if any of you disagree with them, as some of them will still be from my personal ideas. Also worth noting that this about the population this month after all the recent changes.

Canada

African Lion Safari (Asian) - Cambridge Ontario

Bring in a bull import from either the states Europe or Australia now that Johnson lives in Columbus.

Zoo De Granby (African)- Granby Quebec

Convert into breeding holding with young cows or bachelor holding with younger males for Tutume to spar and mentor.

USA

Birmingham Zoo (African)- Birmingham AL

• Potentjally transfer out their two younger bulls to breeding facilities, then take Zuli when the SDZP girls boot him out. Also take Louie from NC or Kedar from Indy

Reid Park Zoo (African)- Tucson AZ

• No changes necessary.

Fresno Chaffee Zoo (African)- Fresno CA

• Once the Fresno cows produce girl calves, transfer Mabu to another breeding facility besides SDSP and Reid Park and swap him with another male.

Los Angeles Zoo (Asian)- Los Angeles CA

• Bring in a matriline from Houston, White Oak or St Louis for Billy to breed, and another younger breeding bull as backup.

San Diego Zoo (African)- San Diego CA

• Transfer out Shaba to the Safari Park like already discussed here.
• Keep their current 3 males until it's time for each of them to depart for breeding facilities and bring in a non breeding mentor male.

San Diego Safari Park (African)- Escondido CA

• Once the habitat overhaul is complete later this year, bring in Tendaji from Dallas or Callee from Sedgwick to mate with all their young cows.
• Send Zuli to bachelor holder when he's old enough.

Cheyenne Mountain Zoo (African)- Colorado Springs CO

• Take in a non breeding bull to mingle with their 5 post-reproductive cows, then convert to bachelor holding when all the cows drop dead.

Denver Zoo (Asian) Denver CO

• Transfer Bodhi Billy or Jake to either ABQ to breed Rosie or Rosamond to replace Doc.
• Take in Colonel Tusk to fill in for Groucho as a mentor if he drops dead.

Smithsonian National Zoo (Asian) Washington D.C

• Bring in Doc from Syracuse, Tucker from Houston or Ongard from Miami to breed the Rotterdam girls if Spike doesn't do the job.

Busch Gardens (Asian) Tampa FL

• Once all the older girls pass, revamp outdoor habitat for breeding or bull groups.

Disney's Animal Kingdom (African) Orlando FL

• Transfer Jabali to breeding facilities when he's ready.
• Transfer out Vasha and her daughter Kianga to North Carolina, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Cleveland or the new Brookfield or Memphis habitats when they open.

Jacksonville Zoo (African) Jacksonville FL

• Convert to bachelor holding by taking in young bulls for Ali to mentor and tussle.

Miami Zoo (Asian) Miami FL

• Move Ongard to a zoo with breeding herds when ready.
• Convert to breeding facility by expanding the yard and barn then take a european import. A bachelor facility could also be a possibility.

Tampa Zoo (African) Tampa FL

• Swap Sdudla for possibly Callee or Maclean from Disney.

White Oak Conservation Center (Asian) Yulee FL

• Move a matriline to Los Angeles, San Antonio Miami or Tulsa.
• Bring in Tucker from Houston.

Atlanta Zoo (African)- Atlanta GA

• Transfer Msholo to San Diego Caldwell, Milwaukee or Cheyenne Mountain.
• Bring in a matriline from Omaha, SDSP, or Disney (see above) for Titan to breed.

Indianapolis Zoo (African)- Indianapolis IN

• Take Kedar to a bachelor holder, then replace with a male like Sdudla, Callee, Samson or any of Mabu's bachelor sons
• Bring in Vasha and her daughter (see above) for extra breedable cows.

Brookfield Zoo (African) Chicago IL

• Make the habitat a breeding facility from a matriline split from Omaha, and also a bachelor facility in a separate yard and barn.

Sedgwick County Zoo (African)- Wichita KS

• Once Callee sires 5 more calves from all the young ladies, take him to breeding holders other than Omaha.
• Potentially send out a matriline to Brookfield or Cleveland.

Audubon Zoo (Asian)- New Orleans LA

• Bring in a non breeding bulls such as Colonel Tusk from Fort Worth or Albert from ABQ to socialize with Jean and the two Buffalo girls. Once they drop dead, turn into bachelor holding.

Maryland Zoo (African)- Baltimore MD

• Transfer Samson to a breeding holder. Pittsburgh perhaps
• When Felix passes, turn into a bachelor facility

Kansas City Zoo (African), Kansas City MO

• No changes needed

Dickerson Park Zoo (Asian), Springfield MO

• Send Hugo to breeding herds
• Accept Cameron Lee from the Endangred ARK Foundation in Oklahoma
• Convert to bull group holding after the two old cows pass
• Overhaul the main yard and barn.

St Louis Zoo (Asian), St Louis MO

• Swap Samdrua with Raja when he leaves for Columbus as planned

Henry Doorly Zoo (African), Omaha NE

• Accept Mabu, his sons or Tendaji to breed with the females there.

ABQ Biopark (Asian), Albuquerque NM

• Transfer Albert to geriatric or bachelor facilities.
• Bring in Ongard, Bodhi Billy or Jake front Denver, Tucker or Doc to breed Rozie

Bronx Zoo (Asian), Bronx NY

• Once the older females pass, invest in a large habitats for breeding or bachelor herds.
• Convert some of the tiger, deer and antelope habitats into elephant space complete with walking paths and add a large barn with indoor viewing. Add a secondary monorail stop for there.

Rosamond Gifford Zoo (Asian), Syracuse NY

• Transfer Doc to other zoos with breeding groups, then replace him with younger bulls thaf have left their bachelor phases

North Carolina Zoo (African), Ashbero NC

• Send Louie to a bachelor holder
• Bring in a matriline and a breeding bull.

Cincinnati Zoo (Asian), Cincinnati OH

• No changes needed

Cleveland Metroparks Zoo (African), Cleveland OH

• Import a matriline from Europe, or SDSP Sedgwick Disney or Omaha, and a breeding bull

Columbus Zoo (Asian), Powell OH

• Send Frankie to bachelor facilities when he's mature enough.

Toledo Zoo (African), Toledo OH

• Send Ajani to places with geriatrics and/or bachelors like Elephant Odyssey Cheyenne Mountain, Caldwell, or Milwaukee.
• Bring in a bull to breed with Kirkja as she matures.
• Construct a multiacre complex for elephants.

Endangered ARK Foundation (Asian), Hugo OK

• Transfer Cameron Lee to Dickerson Park or other potential holders for young Asian bulls.
• Transfer a breeding group to Tulsa.

Oklahoma City Zoo (Asian), Oklahoma City OK

• No changes needed

Tulsa Zoo (Asian), Tulsa OK

• Take a herd split from ALS or Europe and potentially Tucker, Ongard, or the young Denver boys as breeding boys.

Oregon Zoo (Asian), Portland OR

• No changes other than planned.

Pittsburgh Zoo (African), Pittsburgh OH

• Give the outdoor habitats and barn a huge makeover and extension.
• Bring in a breeding bull for the young cows.

Memphis Zoo (African), Memphis TN

• Once the new habitat is complete, send the old girls to TES, then accept either breeding or bachelor herds.

Caldwell Zoo (African), Tyler TX

• Transfer Mac or Emanti to breeding herds.
• Send Tonya to TES and accept an older non breeding male with a mentor role
• Expand the outdoor habitat

Dallas Zoo (African), Dallas TX

• Transfer Tendaji to Omaha or San Diego SP.
• Accept Mabu, Callee (see above), or any of the two ypung bulls at the Caldwell Zoo to breed Mlilo (and Zola perhaps).

Fort Worth Zoo (Asian) Fort Worth TX

• Transfer Colonel Tusk to zoos with geriatric or bull groups.

Houston Zoo (Asian), Houston TX

• Send Shanti's family to Los Angeles San Antonio, Miami or Tulsa.

San Antonio Zoo (Asian), San Antonio TX

• Once habitat is complete, make it a breeding, bachelor holder, or both.

Milwaukee County Zoo (African) Milwaukee WI

• Accept a non breeding bull to socialize with the 3 cows.
• Once the cows pass, convert to bachelor holder.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

African Lion Safari (Asian) - Cambridge Ontario

Bring in a bull import from either the states Europe or Australia now that Johnson lives in Columbus.

Given that there's every indication that elephant captivity is on it's way out in Canada, I would prefer it if ALS's reproductively viable cows and their offspring were transferred to the US. Split the herd up by matriline and dole them out to facilities that either have room or are in need of breeding animals.

That being said, given Charlie Gray's stubborn belief that he should be paid for his elephants (Something that is no longer politically feasible), I fully expect that the elephants of ALS will still be in Canada by the time elephant captivity and breeding is finally banned.

Bringing an unglamorous to the most successful Asian elephant breeding program in the western hemisphere.

Zoo De Granby (African)- Granby Quebec

Convert into breeding holding with young cows or bachelor holding with younger males for Tutume to spar and mentor.

Zoo de Granby announced it's intention to phase-out elephants years ago. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-zoo-elephants-new-home-bill-ban-captivity-1.6394276

No offense, dude, but you really should do more research before you start new threads.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Given that there's every indication that elephant captivity is on it's way out in Canada, I would prefer it if ALS's reproductively viable cows and their offspring were transferred to the US. Split the herd up by matriline and dole them out to facilities that either have room or are in need of breeding animals.

That being said, given Charlie Gray's stubborn belief that he should be paid for his elephants (Something this no longer politically feasible), I fully expect that the elephants of ALS will still be in Canada by the time elephant captivity and breeding is finally banned.

Bringing an unglamorous to the most successful Asian elephant breeding program in the western hemisphere.



Zoo de Granby announced it's intention to phase-out elephants years ago. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-zoo-elephants-new-home-bill-ban-captivity-1.6394276

No offense, dude, but you really should do more research before you start new threads.

None taken amigo. I actually knew that, but i posted them in case the ban wasn't going to happen. I think that ban is due to silly animal rights stuff.

 

[Zorro]

The animal right groups have had some success with Marine mammals as seen with Orcas within the USA and how Seaworld appeared to cave in to them instead of fighting them, this only gives them the incentive to keep going and if they win in Canada with the elephants they will redouble their efforts in the USA. Lesson learnt don't take them too lightly!

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

None taken amigo. I actually knew that, but i posted them in case the ban wasn't going to happen. I think that ban is due to silly animal rights stuff.

The ban is extremely likely to happen, it happened with cetaceans. Now, in the eyes of the animal rights activists, it's time for elephants.

Bans are not "silly" and should not be dismissed as such. Pretending that they won't happen are how they end up happening in the first place.

Furthermore...

Bronx Zoo (Asian), Bronx NY

• Once the older females pass, invest in a large habitats for breeding or bachelor herds.
• Convert some of the tiger, deer and antelope habitats into elephant space complete with walking paths and add a large barn with indoor viewing. Add a secondary monorail stop for there.

The Bronx Zoo made it clear a long time ago that Happy and Patty would be their last elephants.

And given how animal rights activists get up in arms over how Happy, of her own free will, opting to not leave her barn for weeks on end - I do not see the Bronx being keen to go back on their word. Nevermind invest heavily in elephants like how you propose they do.

You must face reality and make your suggestions realistic. Otherwise? This is just a fantasy thread.

 

[Zoo adventures]

The ban is extremely likely to happen, it happened with cetaceans. Now, in the eyes of the animal rights activists, it's time for elephants.

Bans are not "silly" and should not be dismissed as such. Pretending that they won't happen are how they end up happening in the first place.

Furthermore...



The Bronx Zoo made it clear a long time ago that Happy and Patty would be their last elephants.

And given how animal rights activists get up in arms over how Happy, of her own free will, opting to not leave her barn for weeks on end - I do not see the Bronx being keen to go back on their word. Nevermind invest heavily in elephants like how you propose they do.

You must face reality and make your suggestions realistic. Otherwise? This is just a fantasy thread.

Actually, the bill S-15, which bans the keeping of great apes and elephants in Canada, is dead for the moment at least. All bills are dead. The reason is that Justin Trudeau, the prime minister of Canada was stepping down in January, and all government activity will be suspended until March 27. The bill did not have the king's approval to pass the bill and become a law. If there is a new government, everything changes. You can read more in this thread. TZFan explained a lot better than I did in post 34.
Regardless, Zoo Granby will be phasing out elephants.
The Jane Goodall Act - banning elephants and apes in Canada

 

[Zorro]

The ban is extremely likely to happen, it happened with cetaceans. Now, in the eyes of the animal rights activists, it's time for elephants.

Bans are not "silly" and should not be dismissed as such. Pretending that they won't happen are how they end up happening in the first place.

Furthermore...



The Bronx Zoo made it clear a long time ago that Happy and Patty would be their last elephants.

And given how animal rights activists get up in arms over how Happy, of her own free will, opting to not leave her barn for weeks on end - I do not see the Bronx being keen to go back on their word. Nevermind invest heavily in elephants like how you propose they do.

You must face reality and make your suggestions realistic. Otherwise? This is just a fantasy thread.

I believe American zoos need to start sharping their spears now with the animal rights groups before they head start to gear up for a battle!

 

[The Horse Boy]

The Bronx Zoo made it clear a long time ago that Happy and Patty would be their last elephants.

And given how animal rights activists get up in arms over how Happy, of her own free will, opting to not leave her barn for weeks on end - I do not see the Bronx being keen to go back on their word. Nevermind invest heavily in elephants like how you propose they do.

You must face reality and make your suggestions realistic. Otherwise? This is just a fantasy thread.

The thing with the Bronx Zoo is that they said "they will never house elephants that way again" once their current cows pass. By "that way", they meant not housing individual cows away from eachother as by separating happy from pattie (and maxine before she passed). But I can see a new asian elephant facility there being doable. I think they just have to get more funding iirc.

Other users discussed Bronx continuing with elephant keeping a year ago, and all the other NA facility ideas I listed are totally realistic.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Not trying to sound rude to you, but you seem to have many terrible ideas in regards to the population that you are just restating over and over again trying to get people to agree with them. We get it, we know you really want there to be a whole lot of bachelor holdings and everywhere else should be a breeding herd and geriatric cow herds shouldn't exist. Also, I feel this post (at least partially) is just a compilation of all of your posts in the speculation thread combined into one and just restating the same thing, which you have been told countless times to stop doing.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Not trying to sound rude to you, but you seem to have many terrible ideas in regards to the population that you are just restating over and over again trying to get people to agree with them. We get it, we know you really want there to be a whole lot of bachelor holdings and everywhere else should be a breeding herd and geriatric cow herds shouldn't exist. Also, I feel this post (at least partially) is just a compilation of all of your posts in the speculation thread combined into one and just restating the same thing, which you have been told countless times to stop doing.

If I'm annoying y'all with all this I can delete it. I tried my hardest not to be top repetitive. Please don't make me feel bad.

 

[StoppableSan]

As far as constructive criticism goes, I think you've got a one-size-fits-all approach which isn't applicable in a species as socially complex as elephants. There are a lot of nuances when it comes to elephant husbandry/compatibility that aren't really reflected here. Your enthusiasm is palpable, and I think it could very well be channeled talking to elephant keepers and learning the ins-and-outs of things, and reading up on publicly available care manuals from the AZA or even EAZA.

Designwise, zoos have made it a point to have all their yards be utilized by cows, bulls or calves. Cincinnati Zoo's old setup used to have more "invisible" fencing for their female elephants (hotwire primarily) and more reinforced fencing for their bull. They recognized before building Elephant Trek that the bull yard wasn't sufficient, so they filled in the moat at certain intervals and reinforced the fencing so Sabu could enter the cow yard and be fine. Dublin's another example where the yards are designed to be suitable for cows or bulls, and every new exhibit complex is mandated to be this way. Even complexes as old as North Carolina and Disney's Animal Kingdom are capable of housing elephants of all walks of life.

One specific idea you've had that I think could have used a little more proofreading is Bronx - I do actually like the deer idea, the tiger exhibit is very hilly; it's borderline unusable for elephants. The issue with trees in elephant exhibits is you have to have a ring of hotwire that's wide enough to cover the root ball, which severely limits the amount of usable space the elephants may have. That's not to say you can't have a forested elephant yard, Saint Louis does it brilliantly. That being said, especially with a zoo as focused on immersion as Bronx, you'd have to design things carefully so as to maintain maximum tree cover and maximum usable space for the elephants. And past that, even if we avoid reading into Jim Breheny's quote on The Zoo, the writing's on the wall, Bronx doesn't want to deal with the headache that Happy and Patty's situation has caused them. It's uncertain.

The biggest piece of advice I'd give to you other than reading as much on elephant husbandry as possible and learning about elephant husbandry from your local zoo or a zoo closest to you with elephants, is to visit as many of these facilities as possible and know the many ins-and-outs of elephant husbandry/socialization. Zoos are experiencing a reckoning with elephants. I'm not gonna doompost about elephants in zoos as there are notable examples of zoos that want to go back into elephants (Brookfield and San Antonio being the biggest examples I can think of, Omaha followed through on getting elephants back after sending Shenga to Cleveland), and PRwise they ensure they're being as transparent as possible when it comes to their husbandry and doing right by them welfare-wise.

I do understand where your enthusiasm comes from, I've been enthralled with elephants ever since I was little. You couldn't pull me from the rail at my childhood zoo's elephant enclosure!
I always admired the way they calmly saunter on, nonchalantly eating hay or grass. Elephants have a quiet dignity to them that you just can't appreciate on a screen.

 

[The Horse Boy]

As far as constructive criticism goes, I think you've got a one-size-fits-all approach which isn't applicable in a species as socially complex as elephants. There are a lot of nuances when it comes to elephant husbandry/compatibility that aren't really reflected here. Your enthusiasm is palpable, and I think it could very well be channeled talking to elephant keepers and learning the ins-and-outs of things, and reading up on publicly available care manuals from the AZA or even EAZA.

Designwise, zoos have made it a point to have all their yards be utilized by cows, bulls or calves. Cincinnati Zoo's old setup used to have more "invisible" fencing for their female elephants (hotwire primarily) and more reinforced fencing for their bull. They recognized before building Elephant Trek that the bull yard wasn't sufficient, so they filled in the moat at certain intervals and reinforced the fencing so Sabu could enter the cow yard and be fine. Dublin's another example where the yards are designed to be suitable for cows or bulls, and every new exhibit complex is mandated to be this way. Even complexes as old as North Carolina and Disney's Animal Kingdom are capable of housing elephants of all walks of life.

One specific idea you've had that I think could have used a little more proofreading is Bronx - I do actually like the deer idea, the tiger exhibit is very hilly; it's borderline unusable for elephants. The issue with trees in elephant exhibits is you have to have a ring of hotwire that's wide enough to cover the root ball, which severely limits the amount of usable space the elephants may have. That's not to say you can't have a forested elephant yard, Saint Louis does it brilliantly. That being said, especially with a zoo as focused on immersion as Bronx, you'd have to design things carefully so as to maintain maximum tree cover and maximum usable space for the elephants. And past that, even if we avoid reading into Jim Breheny's quote on The Zoo, the writing's on the wall, Bronx doesn't want to deal with the headache that Happy and Patty's situation has caused them. It's uncertain.

The biggest piece of advice I'd give to you other than reading as much on elephant husbandry as possible and learning about elephant husbandry from your local zoo or a zoo closest to you with elephants, is to visit as many of these facilities as possible and know the many ins-and-outs of elephant husbandry/socialization. Zoos are experiencing a reckoning with elephants. I'm not gonna doompost about elephants in zoos as there are notable examples of zoos that want to go back into elephants (Brookfield and San Antonio being the biggest examples I can think of, Omaha followed through on getting elephants back after sending Shenga to Cleveland), and PRwise they ensure they're being as transparent as possible when it comes to their husbandry and doing right by them welfare-wise.

I do understand where your enthusiasm comes from, I've been enthralled with elephants ever since I was little. You couldn't pull me from the rail at my childhood zoo's elephant enclosure!
I always admired the way they calmly saunter on, nonchalantly eating hay or grass. Elephants have a quiet dignity to them that you just can't appreciate on a screen.

That makes me feel better. I know everyone needs constructive criticism every now and then to continue doing well in their work and hobbies. I haven't used zoochat for very long, so I'm still learning the ropes of what to post. I know I might have been rehashing a lot of points me and other users made on the speculation thread, but I still thought it would be fun to make a thread specifically about hypothetical elephant transfers in America. I was inspired by the very similar post Frankie_number_1_fan made about Asians last year.

 

[Jambo]

Not trying to sound rude to you, but you seem to have many terrible ideas in regards to the population that you are just restating over and over again trying to get people to agree with them. We get it, we know you really want there to be a whole lot of bachelor holdings and everywhere else should be a breeding herd and geriatric cow herds shouldn't exist. Also, I feel this post (at least partially) is just a compilation of all of your posts in the speculation thread combined into one and just restating the same thing, which you have been told countless times to stop doing.

Everyone's entitled to their own thoughts/opinions; and I don't see anything wrong with this speculation, especially as it's essentially in the right location on the forum.

I really don't think you needed to be so blatant with your comments directed to @The Horse Boy who's quite obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this thread. There's certainly a line between disagreeing respectfully and just being straight up disrespectful.

 

[tigris115]

That makes me feel better. I know everyone needs constructive criticism every now and then to continue doing well in their work and hobbies. I haven't used zoochat for very long, so I'm still learning the ropes of what to post. I know I might have been rehashing a lot of points me and other users made on the speculation thread, but I still thought it would be fun to make a thread specifically about hypothetical elephant transfers in America. I was inspired by the very similar post Frankie_number_1_fan made about Asians last year.

It happens. Usually, what I'd try to do is research whatever you can find and notice what would be the most viable situation.

For example, I agree that the Bronx's Wild Asia precinct, if they expanded the elephant footprint into the flatter parts of the deer enclosures, they could easily have a fine herd.

If you wanna learn more about zoo management, especially regarding elephants, I'd recommend reading these books.

Also, just ask people. Be polite of course, but most people in zoos are usually nice enough that they'll try to help. For example, with my Wild Asia idea, I contacted several people who've worked in elephant barns and read through a lot of guides to get everything perfect.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Also, just ask people. Be polite of course, but most people in zoos are usually nice enough that they'll try to help. For example, with my Wild Asia idea, I contacted several people who've worked in elephant barns and read through a lot of guides to get everything perfect.

As a matter of fact, I often have chats and questions with keepers on my zoo visits. Esp regarding elephants.

 

[tigris115]

As a matter of fact, I often have chats and questions with keepers on my zoo visits. Esp regarding elephants.

That's good

And tbf, elephant management can be a quite complex matter, especially as many zoos are reckoning with the shift in paradigm.

 

[The Horse Boy]

That's good

And tbf, elephant management can be a quite complex matter, especially as many zoos are reckoning with the shift in paradigm.

That's true. Mind you, elephant management has generally gotten much better than it did in the old days. Many aza zoos housing elephants would just house a few unrelated individuals (cows mostly) in undersized enclosures, and the aza frowns upon that approach nowadays. Now you get a lot with the matriarchal herd structures seen in the wild. And discovering that male elephants form loose bachelor groups has only been very recent afaik. But it was all because zoos did not know any better and are learning, so I forgive them.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Somehow missed this thread! Honestly not sure why you're getting so much flack for this, it's harmless and always fun to discuss. Not to mention that you are far from the first user on here to suggest some "out there" speculation regarding elephants, and it's being pretty harsh to act like most of us haven't been there at some point.

Given that there's every indication that elephant captivity is on it's way out in Canada, I would prefer it if ALS's reproductively viable cows and their offspring were transferred to the US. Split the herd up by matriline and dole them out to facilities that either have room or are in need of breeding animals.

That being said, given Charlie Gray's stubborn belief that he should be paid for his elephants (Something that is no longer politically feasible), I fully expect that the elephants of ALS will still be in Canada by the time elephant captivity and breeding is finally banned.

I would still expect a bull import in the next year or so if the legislation remains in limbo. I believe Charlie Gray has stated before he's confident ALS will be grandfathered in to any laws passed, thus giving them the ability to operate relatively business as usual until the time would come where a new bull onsite would be needed. Once their ability to breed comes to a halt, they would need to transfer out their animals. No matter how you feel about Charlie Gray, he works closely with US zoos and I'm confident he will take action to get them down to the US when the time comes.

The Bronx Zoo made it clear a long time ago that Happy and Patty would be their last elephants.

Bronx has not made an updated statement on their elephant plans in years, so it is not accurate in any capacity to claim they are 100% set on never holding elephants again after their girls pass. While I agree the negative publicity from Happy is enough to back a phase-out and then some, it is also worth acknowledging that Bronx's Asian monorail exhibits are on their last legs. A new elephant complex in the area in, say, 10-15 years is far from out of the picture imo. I'm not super confident on that scenario, but it's not a fantasy to suggest that it's a possibility for the area.

 

[The Horse Boy]

New Somehow missed this thread! Honestly not sure why you're getting so much flack for this, it's harmless and always fun to discuss. Not to mention that you are far from the first user on here to suggest some "out there" speculation regarding elephants, and it's being pretty harsh to act like most of us haven't been there at some point.

I think the main flack was a post from the @Nile Hippo Expert reminding me that I might have been too repetitive on the threads as I was restating quite a lot of the transfer ideas I put out on the elephant discussion and speculation thread earlier (esp my dang passion for bachelor facilities and how there should be more in America which many zoochatters agree with), and I have made that mistake a few times on this site in general. To be fair the title and subject was valid. I think a few of the ideas I put out were brand new actually, including Smithsonian bull breeding scenario.