That is why I think all zoos should send the older cows (and some older bulls) to sanctuaries (TES and PAWS, PAWS has only one Asian cow. I am sure Gypsy would love to have friends again). The zoos then should focus on multigenerational herds and bachelor herds to support the American population of Asian and African elephants. But they are shipping a bulk of those animals to Tulsa Zoo when Tulsa Zoo talks about breeding elephants. It does not make any sense to me. All of the cows could go to a sanctuary and the zoo can keep Billy, Sneezy and Hank as all three can be AIed (or possibly naturally bred especially Sneezy as he has proven to sire calves naturally).
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter The Horse Boy
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That is why I think all zoos should send the older cows (and some older bulls) to sanctuaries (TES and PAWS, PAWS has only one Asian cow. I am sure Gypsy would love to have friends again). The zoos then should focus on multigenerational herds and bachelor herds to support the American population of Asian and African elephants. But they are shipping a bulk of those animals to Tulsa Zoo when Tulsa Zoo talks about breeding elephants. It does not make any sense to me. All of the cows could go to a sanctuary and the zoo can keep Billy, Sneezy and Hank as all three can be AIed (or possibly naturally bred especially Sneezy as he has proven to sire calves naturally).
Lawsuit filed to stop transfer of Asian elephants from L.A. Zoo to Tulsa Zoo | News | fox23.com
Now the LA Zoo is being sued for moving the elephants from LA Zoo to Tulsa??? While AR has different ideas than the ZooChatters do in the regards of moving (moving to support the population versus killing the elephants). The AR wants elephants moved, but now they are suing to stop it?
Also watch Free Billy on Tubi, it is full of AR propaganda. I saw some videos of Billy in his younger days when full contact was permitted. But the new exhibit looks very nice from what I can see, it could work for a bachelor herd if LA Zoo decides to hold elephants again, especially Asians as the San Deigo Zoo has africans so diversify the elephant population in California some.
Now the LA Zoo is being sued for moving the elephants from LA Zoo to Tulsa??? While AR has different ideas than the ZooChatters do in the regards of moving (moving to support the population versus killing the elephants). The AR wants elephants moved, but now they are suing to stop it?
Also watch Free Billy on Tubi, it is full of AR propaganda. I saw some videos of Billy in his younger days when full contact was permitted. But the new exhibit looks very nice from what I can see, it could work for a bachelor herd if LA Zoo decides to hold elephants again, especially Asians as the San Deigo Zoo has africans so diversify the elephant population in California some.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
The primary issue with PAWS is that they are explicitly and vocally anti-zoo, and as such no AZA elephant holders work with them. I'm sure it would be beneficial for Gypsy to have companions, but unless they change their stance/a zoo is forced by law to send individuals there I doubt we will see change on that front.
The current situation at Tulsa is strange but for the most part unavoidable. Tina and Connie are both companions of younger, fertile bulls that would be wasted genetically at TES due to the breeding policy. Separating the pairs would be more negative publicity than it's worth. It's likely that we're going to have to see a portion of the elderly cows pass away before breeding would even be considered there.
It would likely involve an entire new set of animals too. Hank is a behavioral nonbreeder, Sneezy isn't being allowed to naturally breed anymore due to age anf lack of frequent experience, and it's likely Billy will never be bred period unfortunately.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
Yep, Fox News for some insanely weird reason completely agrees with IDA, that they should be moved to a sanctuary, which for that, I wouldn't trust anything they say about elephants and zoos based off this.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
It is genuinely laughable that they're suing on grounds of "intentionally misleading" information on where Billy and Tina are going, when even a simple google search will tell you just how transparent Tulsa has been about their new facility
peruvianbirdie
Well-Known Member
Well I’m not the only one that knows that film exisince (did not bother to watch it for my mental health, I would like to hear people’s opinions here because I made the mistake of reading the YouTube comments). It sucks what the zoo is going through, I will be pissed if their accreditation is removed if the zoo is forced to send Billy and Tina to a sanctuary. I definitely don’t want Elephants of Asia to end exhibiting elephants because so much money and fighting was put into this, hoping in the future more elephants become available.
I would have preferred to have Billy sent to a AZA zoo where he can breed, I wouldn’t want him separated from Tina (IIRC both have a bond, or I’m unsure or thinking Shuanzi or Jewel) and I think at the end Tulsa has the new complex to house them (if LA government is smart and LA and Tulsa combat the misinformation and disrespect by activists). IMO as long as Billy and Tina are together alongside other elephants (NOT IN A SANCTUARY) in a nice zoo complex thriving, that’s what matters though I’m bittersweet about Billy unable to breed at Tulsa. Anyways a random question but does Tina and Billy both share the same grounds non separated? I never been able to see the two sharing the exact same area from my past few visits. In general does Tina and Billy share a bond, I know for sure they did with the previous girls, I wonder if they will be able to integrate with other elephants. I always desired fertile cows to be brought to LA (I understand it’s not that possible at this time) but concerned if young cows might bully Tina who’s consider elderly unless I’m underestimating the strength of an elderly cow.
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peruvianbirdie
Well-Known Member
I also want to add that in general I’m very concerned for the zoo. Though luckily Cheyenne Mountain Zoo won their case and dealt with something similar, where talking LA here a animal rights driven city just look how they were able to remove the pony rides and rodeos, so I’m unfortunately feeling like animal rights might win this shameful case. It looks like a bad time to be a complex animal like an elephant and orca because it seems like your fates are decided by activists and naive lawyers or celebrities rather than experienced keepers and biologists.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Even though a lot the California cities went through many rocky patches bc of vehement anti zoo activity regarding elephants, I'm amazed that Fresno and the San Diego parks were not harassed by activists about the species quite on the same frequency amount as Los Angeles. Fresno was sued for their African habitat twice two years ago, but the ARAs thankfully lost, and their program continues to have hopefully stable populations. Fresno also looks to be one of the best African Elephant habitats in the country.
Fresno has a lot of backing from the city, it was hard for the activists to rally their cause. Similarly San Diego is just too popular on top of maintaining fairly large habitats and herds, not enough leg to stand on.
Billy's behavior and some unfortunate circumstances with LA's program, as well as some activists in high positions have made it tough going. Once Billy and Tina go I will be very, very surprised to see elephants in LA's future at the current crossroads.
Odds are there will be some discourse but it'll die down once they settle in
Referring to what? New elephants coming in? Not with an anti-captivity member on the city council there won't be. He's already forced the zoo to have to do a whole report on the options.
Activists function on agenda, not actual animal welfare. She's at a sanctuary so they no longer care whatsoever.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I don't think oakland also phased out due to animal rights reasons neither. I think that enclosure had perfect herd space. The lack of available young bulls to socialize with Osh was more the issue when they originally planned to do bachelors. I wonder of they made any official announcements about going forward with that space.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Oakland almost 100% phased out due to animal rights reasons moreso than lack of available bulls. They work very closely with anti-zoo organizations such as PETA and PAWS, etc so it was inevitable imo that they would phase out. The praise and partnerships with them would only go so far with elephants onsite.
It's unfortunate given that Oakland has the space and resources to regain elephants (and imo could've obtained a male companion for Osh rather easily), but they are one I don't see bringing them back.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
If they were not affiliated with anti-zoo organizations like all the other AZA facilities, I'm very sure they would have brought in some surplus males or a matriline split to fill the exhibit after the deaths and departure of their two older cows. I think that might have been a better place for Titan to be relocated over Atlanta when he left Sedgwick recently.
You are correct. PAWS has an anti-zoo slant. I was thinking about Gypsy and how lonely she must be after years and years of having company while on the road and at Hawthornes, even when she was kept in the same stall as the bull for his own company.
I have seen Tina and Jewel when they were traveling with the circus in my hometown. One cow was definitely dominant over the other. I am not sure which is which. But I could tell they were comfortable companions with each other and in the brief videos of Billy and her in the background, I do not see that kind of interaction and there was a barrier between them. I am sure Tina is a gentle cow that is sociable enough to get along with most of anyone.
I suspect Tulsa may collect semen for AI, we will see.
You did not miss much in the film. Just some lady mouthing off protesting the zoo and flinging the PETA propaganda. It was only like 45 minutes and watching Billy training as a young calf was only moments that got me really paying attention. It is hard to believe that the AR is still trying to use the training on the chain as a modern training today when the opposite is true now. No more chains or bullhooks as it is against AZA's protocal (Philly Zoo lost their accrediation because of this)
You confirmed my thoughts that BIlly and Tina are not directly sharing space with each other, but they definitely are aware of each other because they can see each other the fence at least.
I hope they will utilize Billy in the SSP breeding program.
I think she was just basically forgotten once she got to California from Illinois.
The LA Zoo has made the decision and the AR group really can't stop them. Who owns the elephants? LA Zoo. Not AR.
I just think it is a hoot that they are now suing to keep the elephants in LA? After trying to get them moved.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
This is true, but keep in mind that sending Tina to a sanctuary and Billy to another zoo would be PR suicide, even if they aren't bonded to any degree. I'm sure somewhere like TES would be the preferred location for geriatric cows, but when you have ARAs and fertile bulls in the mix it complicates things. Tulsa is a breeding-designed facility with an excess of nonbreeding individuals. In an ideal world I'm sure they would be glad to offload them elsewhere to make room for viable cows.
I'm not holding my breath unfortunately. I can already see the lawsuits against Tulsa for "violating Billy's free will" with the collection
