European (Tea)Cup - League E - Vienna vs Zoo Berlin

[TeaLovingDave]

This should be quite an interesting one, I reckon, as the oldest zoo in the world faces off against the oldest zoo in Germany in a category which provides a lot of scope for discussion and debate, and in which both collections have distinct strengths and weaknesses - CARNIVORES.

As always, you have three days to decide which collection is the superior, with plenty to evidence to share, weigh and discuss on both sides - and as a general reminder, any 5-0 vote *must* be accompanied by sufficient explanation in order to be counted.... although naturally I would hope any vote will be accompanied by an explanatory vote anyway!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

Long time followers may remember that both Vienna and Zoo Berlin had "Carnivores" as one of their match-ups in earlier leagues and they won those match-ups. So, in a sense, this acts as a "match-up of champions".

Anyway, according to ZTL (so, grain of salt...)

SHARED

• Giant Panda
• Red Panda
• Asian Small-Clawed Otter
• Grey Wolf
• Common Dwarf Mongoose
• White-Nosed Coati
• Lion
• Leopard (Amur & Persian, respectively)
• Tiger (Amur and Sumatran, respectively)
• Meerkat

VIENNA ONLY

• Cheetah
• Eurasian Lynx
• South American Sea Lion
• Spectacled Bear
• Polar Bear

ZOO BERLIN ONLY

• Sand Cat
• Ring-Tailed Vontsira
• Ocelot
• Oncilla
• Margay
• African Wild Dog
• Sloth Bear
• Narrow-Striped Boky
• Jaguar
• Harbour Seal
• Kinkajou
• Brown Bear
• Fennec Fox
• California Sea Lion

At this initial glance, Z-Berlin looks to have the advantage in quantity, although again, ZTL should still be taken with a grain of salt as to what's actually visible. I can't speak for Vienna, but I do remember Z-Berlin's Carnivore enclosures ranging from solid to flat-out amazing, so I think it could be tough to beat here.

 

[twilighter]

Vienna has strengths in this category in the name of Wolf, Polar Bear, Spectacled Bear and Dwarf Mongoose exhibits, but has I don't think they can be enough.

Big cats are not in the best conditions at the both zoos, but Berlin's outdoor exhibits are definitely better.

Giant Panda also have better accommodation in Berlin.

Bear exhibits in Germany got significant upgrade in the last few years and can challenge Vienna's.

Berlin has a clear advantage in small carnivore collection and breeding record.

Marine carnivores are more or less in a similar situation at the both zoos.

3-2 for Berlin.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Long time followers may remember that both Vienna and Zoo Berlin had "Carnivores" as one of their match-ups in earlier leagues and they won those match-ups. So, in a sense, this acts as a "match-up of champions".

Much to my frustration and annoyance, it must be said!

My intention (which I have otherwise ensured is indeed the case) was to avoid any repeat categories full-stop, and spent a not-inconsiderable amount of time drawing up a logic-puzzle grid and using it to work out multiple lists for random selection which would hopefully avoid any collections having a repeated category from previous leagues.... but the best combination I could manage for League E without further postponing the resumption of matches was a list with eight unique matches and one repeat match.

 

[amur leopard]

Big cats are not in the best conditions at the both zoos, but Berlin's outdoor exhibits are definitely better.

I'm not sure I agree - certainly the tiger and leopard exhibits are far bigger in Vienna! As a matter of fact the Berlin outdoor big cat exhibits are pretty tiny all around, and while I agree that there are other aspects, having a leopard or jaguar in 200-250sqm and tigers in under 500sqm is questionable for such a good zoo. Vienna has their tigers in around 1100sqm, leopards in 650sqm and cheetahs in over 1800sqm. Undeniably the presentation aspect is better in Reich der Jaeger but from that perspective I'd rather be a big cat in Vienna.

From the bear perspective I believe Vienna eclipses Berlin too - granted the excellent giant panda exhibit but Vienna's isn't bad, and their polar and spectacled bear exhibits are a league above what Berlin has to offer otherwise. Wolves are better housed in Vienna by quite some margin, in far more immersive conditions, and the Vienna lynx exhibit is similarly excellent.

Add to this the coatis in with the spectacled bears (in what is probably the one of the best exhibits for the species on the continent), a better Red panda exhibit than in Berlin, a substantially better dwarf mongoose exhibit in the East Africa house, and while Berlin has a supreme small carnivore collection, I don't believe the gulf between the zoos on small carnivores is quite as large as some may think.

I'd rather be a carnivore in Vienna, but would love to hear from others who disagree.

 

[remar]

Big cats are not in the best conditions at the both zoos, but Berlin's outdoor exhibits are definitely better.

Maybe the lions, with tigers and leopards i'm not so sure about that statement. Regarding the bears i'm also not fully with your opinion. Both giant panda and spectacled bear were rebuilt recently and both of theme have stunning exhibits. Probably the mixed exhibit for the south american bears with coatis is the most beautiful exhibit at Vienna right now.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Rather than try to re-word arguments I have already made during the previous Zoo Berlin match involving carnivores, I shall quote some key points of relevance here with suitable edits:

Berlin does have several failings [regarding exhibitry] (I agree that the external exhibit for the jaguars sorely requires the extension which is currently underway, for instance)......and it must be noted that it does have several points of distinct strength, including the excellent interior and exterior exhibits for smaller carnivores within the Reich der Jäger house, an attractive exhibit for White-nosed Coati elsewhere in the zoo, the renovated and significantly improved exhibits for Sloth Bear and the Brown Bear / Eurasian Wolf mix, and a Giant Panda exhibit complex which at a total of 7,500 m² is ......without a shadow of a doubt the best exhibit for Giant Panda I have seen for both the visiting public and the animals within.

My zoo-historian side is definitely a large part of why I think so highly of the Reich der Jäger house; when the old carnivore house closed down for extensive renovation shortly after the accession of Knieriem, I felt a strong sense of trepidation considering the general antipathy he displayed towards the preservation of the history of both Zoo Berlin and Tierpark Berlin, and various statements he made over the years which gave the distinct impression that he wanted to completely alter the "feel" and design ethos of both collections to fit his own model much as he had done at Hannover... a zoo I wholeheartedly dislike precisely because of the "feel" and design ethos there! As such, it was a very welcome surprise when I visited Zoo Berlin again in 2023 to find that although a lot *had* changed with the transition to Reich der Jäger, and the house had been modernised and improved in many ways, it still felt very much like Zoo Berlin.

However, one point which cannot be denied is that Zoo Berlin is the collection responsible for the presence of Narrow-striped Boky outside Madagascar in the first place, having imported the species in the late 1990s and soon afterwards earning the distinction of the first breeding of the species worldwide. On a related note, Berlin is *also* responsible for the establishment in captivity of the Ring-tailed Vontsira - having imported the species around the same time as it did the Boky, and attaining a first captive breeding shortly afterwards - and is the studbook keeper for both taxa. Although I believe in both cases some new blood *was* imported later by Todd Dalton of RSCC fame, neither species would be present in zoological collections outside the native range were it not for Zoo Berlin.

I'll give further thought to any match-specific points I could make

while Berlin has a supreme small carnivore collection, I don't believe the gulf between the zoos on small carnivores is quite as large as some may think.

I mean, considering the fact that Vienna has barely any small carnivores to begin with, it is a pretty massive gulf!

 

[Dassie rat]

Berlin Zoo has 19 carnivore types not found in Vienna and gets 10 points for carnivores found in up to 10 EU zoos
Vienna has 9 carnivore types not found in Berlin Zoo and gets 3 points for carnivores found in up to 10 EU zoos
This gives a 29-12 win for Berlin. I'll score this 3-2

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

Much to my frustration and annoyance, it must be said!

My intention (which I have otherwise ensured is indeed the case) was to avoid any repeat categories full-stop, and spent a not-inconsiderable amount of time drawing up a logic-puzzle grid and using it to work out multiple lists for random selection which would hopefully avoid any collections having a repeated category from previous leagues.... but the best combination I could manage for League E without further postponing the resumption of matches was a list with eight unique matches and one repeat match.

Well, I think you've done a good job. I guess overlap was always prone to happen anyway.

Funnily enough, if Zoo Berlin does win, it'll at least stand alongside its sister zoo in this round.

 

[amur leopard]

I mean, considering the fact that Vienna has barely any small carnivores to begin with, it is a pretty massive gulf!

I'm not saying Vienna is better in this regard, but that the difference is less significant than some might think looking at species list alone due to superior exhibit quality in Vienna. I will cede your points on the two euplerids though.

In the meantime, much of Berlin's larger carnivore exhibits are largely middling (at best for some, really, thinking leopards, jaguar, tiger), while I'm sure you'd agree the Vienna spectacled and polar bear exhibits are easily two of the best inner city examples of exhibits for such species in the world, and the big cat exhibits are at least adequate space-wise...

Would be interested to hear Haasje's reasoning for the 4-1.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

while I'm sure you'd agree the Vienna spectacled and polar bear exhibits are easily two of the best inner city examples of exhibits for such species in the world

I'd tend to argue that the brown bear and sloth bear exhibits at Zoo Berlin hold a similar position for *those* species, however!

It's definitely a much closer match than the 5-vote paradigm allows for, I reckon - if I could give a truly representative score for my personal sentiments it would be a margin no wider than 55-45.

 

[amur leopard]

I'd tend to argue that the brown bear and sloth bear exhibits at Zoo Berlin hold a similar position for *those* species, however!

Maybe, although there's considerably lesser competition on both counts if we're being honest . I don't think either or can be construed as anything special if disregarding history at any rate...

 

[antonmuster]

I have visited both Berlin and Vienna pre Covid.

It seems that Berlin has renovated their cat enclosures since my last visit (ca. 2017). Did they increase the area available to the animals?

I like Berlin but I found their carnivore holdings, especially the cats, (very) problematic because they appeared to systematically sacrifice adequate husbandry in favor of displaying a large number of species. In this light, unless the situation has indeed improved since my visit, I see the high species counts of Berlin as an argument against it rather than in favor of it in this competition.

Vienna on the other hand seemed to invest genuine effort in creating adequate to excellent enclosures for its carnivores by opening up new space, by designing their enclosures intelligently with lots of enrichment and complexity and by reducing species counts.

I would like to learn more about the quality of the carnivore enclosures currently at both zoos as for me, this is the most decisive factor.

I am parking my vote at 3-2 Vienna but may switch to 4-1 Vienna (or 3-2 Berlin) based on further arguments (not) presented.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

It seems that Berlin has renovated their cat enclosures since my last visit (ca. 2017). Did they increase the area available to the animals?

I like Berlin but I found their carnivore holdings, especially the cats, (very) problematic because they appeared to systematically sacrifice adequate husbandry in favor of displaying a large number of species. In this light, unless the situation has indeed improved since my visit, I see the high species counts of Berlin as an argument against it rather than in favor of it in this competition.

The number of species displayed within the carnivore house was reduced fairly significantly when it re-opened, yes - with the overall end result being that the vast majority of species now occupy multiple indoor enclosures connected to one another, and the associated outdoor exhibits have been merged entirely. For instance, from memory there are now three indoor exhibits for sand cat with all having access to the large outdoor exhibit.

Although the same *does* apply for the big cat exhibits as well as the small carnivore and small cat exhibits, these are currently undergoing further expansion via the construction of large new outdoor exhibits which will be connected to the existing exhibits by bridges extending over the visitor footpath.

 

[remar]

@antonmuster Vienna has also updated many of their carnivore exhibits in the past 5 years. The lions got a major make over, sadly without any additional space. The other larger cats got some updates too. The giant panda exhibit was very recently enlarged. Asian small clawed otter and red pandas got a new exhibit next to the rainforest housed together. And the spectacled bear exhibit (now mixed with coatis) was also remodeled.

 

[Haasje]

During my visit last year, I was particularly impressed by the new carnivore house in Berlin.
Especially the indoor enclosures stood out, they’ve created some truly impressive spaces with a well-thought-out design aesthetic and an overall coherent layout.

Naturally, Berlin's collection is significantly larger than that of Vienna, which adds to the overall experience. Personally, I also find the quality of the enclosures in Berlin generally superior to those in Vienna. A clear highlight for me are the giant pandas in Berlin, which offer a very strong and positive impression. That said, the spectacled bears in Vienna are also housed in a truly beautiful setting and deserve recognition.

For me, Berlin clearly comes out on top in this category. The difference is notable enough that I wouldn't call it a close 3-2 comparison – for me, it's clearly a 4-1 in favour of Berlin.

 

[amur leopard]

Personally, I also find the quality of the enclosures in Berlin generally superior to those in Vienna.

That's fair, but I strongly disagree. I don't think there's currently a below average exhibit for carnivores in Vienna (although correct me if I'm wrong) and several are outstanding. The same cannot really be said for Berlin in my opinion. I agree about the pandas though.

Asian small clawed otter and red pandas got a new exhibit next to the rainforest housed together.

What does this look like out of interest, and how big? Is it on the same site as the ASCO exhibit before?

 

[remar]

Actually, i just realized yesterday, that i haven't made a picture at my last visit. The new exhibit is located on the other side of the rainforest house at the former coati exhibit. It covers an area of 300 square meters.

 

[amur leopard]

Actually, i just realized yesterday, that i haven't made a picture at my last visit. The new exhibit is located on the other side of the rainforest house at the former coati exhibit. It covers an area of 300 square meters.

Oh I see where you mean - thanks for the info! Incidentally that is larger than the jaguar and leopard exhibits at Berlin...

It's a shame this one's been a little quiet, would love to hear more from those voting for Berlin, but it seems to be a rather silent majority at this point .

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Oh I see where you mean - thanks for the info! Incidentally that is larger than the jaguar and leopard exhibits at Berlin...

It's a shame this one's been a little quiet, would love to hear more from those voting for Berlin, but it seems to be a rather silent majority at this point .

Indeed; we seem to be struggling to get beyond 22 votes in any matches now, which suggests that people have lost interest in the Cup - or haven't realised it has resumed.

Previous matches for both Berlin and Vienna have tended to be much more active.