North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

[ZCChip]

To be honest, White oak never had that many breeding females to begin with some of their cows went years without breeding, and some of them never had calves at all. Only Aree, Mable, April and Piper were the only realistic options to breed, and I doubt they would send over half of their breeding females to a facility with a unproven bull, but I could see a move happening once they can no longer breed with the bulls the have, once Casey passes the only bulls that can breed are Barack with Aree and April, and what ever female calves they have, and either Osgood, Irwin, or P.T with Mable and Piper, with what ever daughters they have.

Very valid points. Another option would be the African Lion Safari girls.

I do not think anything will happen for approximately 10 years, but hopefully there is a plan.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

To be honest, White oak never had that many breeding females to begin with some of their cows went years without breeding, and some of them never had calves at all. Only Aree, Mable, April and Piper were the only realistic options to breed, and I doubt they would send over half of their breeding females to a facility with a unproven bull, but I could see a move happening once they can no longer breed with the bulls the have, once Casey passes the only bulls that can breed are Barack with Aree and April, and what ever female calves they have, and either Osgood, Irwin, or P.T with Mable and Piper, with what ever daughters they have.

I think its more likely they'll receive a new bull than end their program entirely and send their cows elswhere. They've had a reccomendation for a bull transfer as recently as two years ago. I can see Miami being an ideal location for a matrilineal split should one be necessary down the line however.

Very valid points. Another option would be the African Lion Safari girls.

I do not think anything will happen for approximately 10 years, but hopefully there is a plan.

I'd love if a nice chunk of the ALS girls would come down to the states, but unless seriously pushed I doubt Charlie Gray would let them go without a hefty sum. In an ideal world Lily and Emily's lines would be moving to the US in short order to make room for a new bull up there, but that's very much a pipe dream.

 

[ZCChip]

I think its more likely they'll receive a new bull than end their program entirely and send their cows elswhere. They've had a reccomendation for a bull transfer as recently as two years ago. I can see Miami being an ideal location for a matrilineal split should one be necessary down the line however.

I agree with you. I just cannot see White Oaks end entirely. Especially with all of the private funding into the project, they are not going to let it end. But they are not part of the SSP studbook/AZA I believe which further complicates the situation.

I'd love if a nice chunk of the ALS girls would come down to the states, but unless seriously pushed I doubt Charlie Gray would let them go without a hefty sum. In an ideal world Lily and Emily's lines would be moving to the US in short order to make room for a new bull up there, but that's very much a pipe dream.

Ah yes, the money. I remember when the Fort Worth Zoo (I believe?) wanted some cows from Charlie Gray and they could not afford the sum (or something of the sort). Plus, the rumors of a new bull coming from the UK, which has not happened yet. I understand from somewhere that Charlie Gray is planning to retire sometime, so maybe that is when they will start splitting up the herd to a more manageable number. They are without a breeding bull (unrelated to the cows) without the moment as Johnson is now at Columbus, so the breeding would be at standstill at least for a little while.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I agree with you. I just cannot see White Oaks end entirely. Especially with all of the private funding into the project, they are not going to let it end. But they are not part of the SSP studbook/AZA I believe which further complicates the situation.

White Oak is part of the SSP and is AZA, I believe you may be mixing them up with Endangered Ark who is not.

 

[Jambo]

I'd say he's probably going to be "stuck" in Miami for at least a few years yet while they evaluate the future of their elephant programs. Him leaving Miami would leave Nellie without a companion, so in order for him to move they'd need to bring in a second elephant for her or move her elsewhere; ending their asian program. He'll definitely be utilized at some point, but currently I don't really see any rush since I can't really see any facilities leaping at the oppertunity to take him on. Despite his value, he's still relatively young after all.
It would be nice for him to be a starting bull at a fresh program like Tulsa or San Antonio, which currently feels like the most likely route given that he would be of prime age when they would likely be looking to start breeding programs.

Ongard will absolutely breed eventually. It's a matter of when at this point in time. As has been mentioned, he's owned by San Diego. So he's not not going back to Australia, and he's not going back to San Diego who's now focused on holding bachelor Africans.

The intention is and always has been to utilise him within the North American program. He was only seven when he arrived to the US, so wasn't of age to be a 'breeding bull'. Miami's always wanted to hold a breeding elephant herd, so in discussion with the SSP, he was loaned there with the intention of being used as their breeding bull one day. More importantly, at that point in time, they had space to accommodate him, and also had an interesting social mix whereby he could have social sessions with a mature bull and a mature cow.

My assumption is that all of that is still the plan for Ongard, and they're waiting for Nellie to pass before making any further decisions. He's still young (he'll turn 15 in September), and is trained for AI - which could perhaps be used in the meantime. Ongard himself was conceived through AI!

 

[ZCChip]

White Oak is part of the SSP and is AZA, I believe you may be mixing them up with Endangered Ark who is not.

no... I knew EA is not. I thought White Oak is privately owned, so they do not participate in the SSP? Just a conservation effort but all of the elephants are from Ringling.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

no... I knew EA is not. I thought White Oak is privately owned, so they do not participate in the SSP? Just a conservation effort but all of the elephants are from Ringling.

They are indeed accredited and participate in the SSP. The elephants being from Ringling does not automatically disqualify them from the program (unless they're castrated of course). Several of their young bulls are technically available for AI donation as well.

 

[ZCChip]

They are indeed accredited and participate in the SSP.
View attachment 801454

Good to know!!! They can exchange animals then! Yay!

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Good to know!!! They can exchange animals then! Yay!

Yes certianly, and I believe we will see them be a major contributor given a decade or so's time. Assuming they have an active reccomendation to receive a new bull for when Casey inevitably is unable to produce more calves/passes away then they will become a powerhouse that could surely supply some surplus to facilities hoping to obtain a matriline in the future.
Theyve already had a steady run of calves with births in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and, although not confirmed likely 2024 as well. If they keep their viable girls breeding then we should see great things from them.

 

[Jambo]

Yes certianly, and I believe we will see them be a major contributor given a decade or so's time. Assuming they have an active reccomendation to receive a new bull for when Casey inevitably is unable to produce more calves/passes away then they will become a powerhouse that could surely supply some surplus to facilities hoping to obtain a matriline in the future.
Theyve already had a steady run of calves with births in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and, although not confirmed likely 2024 as well. If they keep their viable girls breeding then we should see great things from them.

I believe it was Tucker who was recommended for transfer to White Oak in that SSP Document - I do wonder whether that's still in the plans.

Or whether they intend to retain him as someone on here mentioned a few years back that he also had a breeding recommendation with Joy (which may or may not still be the case).

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I believe it was Tucker who was recommended for transfer to White Oak in that SSP Document - I do wonder whether that's still in the plans.

Or whether they intend to retain him as someone on here mentioned a few years back that he also had a breeding recommendation with Joy (which may or may not still be the case).

It was indeed Tucker.
The SSP doccument from a few years back had removed his breeding reccomendation with Joy, as I imagine is still the case given Chuck's reccomendation to breed with her and subsequent move to Houston. Houston did state last year in a comment that they had no current plans to move him, but with Teddy needing his "spot" in the bull holding in likely a year or two I can't see how he could stay there much longer regardless.

 

[Zorro]

Ongard came from Melbourne Zoo (Zoos Victoria). The Platypus deal was between Taronga Zoo and San Diego Zoo, so this transfer was independent of that. Taronga wished to receive Okapi in return, but these plans have long been abandoned.

Despite Ongard’s value as the only calf of his founder mother (Kulab), he definitely won’t be returning to Australia. Melbourne Zoo no longer holds elephants and while his herd is now accommodated at Werribee, their capacity is still limited and he’s the half-brother of one of their breeding females. Dubbo hold Pathi Harn (another half brother of Ongard) and since it appears his mother has been retired from breeding (after two calves, both surviving); Ongard is only marginally more genetically valuable than her son - with his mother producing a female calf (to a different founder bull), who is seven years old and yet to breed herself.

(Not to go off track) Taronga and the San Diego zoo have had a very long history of animal transfers and my "guess" would be that when the Australian IRA is finally done for Giraffe/Okapi I would say that I would not be in "shock" if the Transfer then took place I believe it maybe "on ice" rather than abandoned!

 

[The Horse Boy]

I'd love if a nice chunk of the ALS girls would come down to the states, but unless seriously pushed I doubt Charlie Gray would let them go without a hefty sum. In an ideal world Lily and Emily's lines would be moving to the US in short order to make room for a new bull up there, but that's very much a pipe dream.

Is Charlie Gray the reason why a matriline has not been sent to a US facility yet? As has been pointed out by users here, ALS should conduct a herd split sooner rather than later for a better boost to the population in down the states. In addition to that, back in 2022 Canada introduced a new law called the Jane Goodall Act which has still yet to pass. And if it does, it could outlaw either the breeding of elephants or elephants in captivity in Canada at all which is what part of that new law entails. All the different matrilines will have to go somewhere looking for breeding herds in America if that would be the case (think Tulsa, San Antonio, even ABQ). I honestly wouldn't entertain the thought of them bringing in a new breeding bull for the same reason.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Is Charlie Gray the reason why a matriline has not been sent to a US facility yet? As has been pointed out by users here, ALS should conduct a herd split sooner rather than later for a better boost to the population in down the states. In addition to that, back in 2022 Canada introduced a new law called the Jane Goodall Act which has still yet to pass. And if it does, it could outlaw either the breeding of elephants or elephants in captivity in Canada at all which is what part of that new law entails. All the different matrilines will have to go somewhere looking for breeding herds in America if that would be the case (think Tulsa, San Antonio, even ABQ). I honestly wouldn't entertain the thought of them bringing in a new breeding bull for the same reason.

Charlie Gray is the one primarily "in charge" of elephant decisions to my understanding, so he's the main reason, yes. He's a knowledgeable elephant man but is old-fashioned in his instance on charging large sums of money to sell his cows. For both public opinion reasons and funding reasons, it hasn't happened often that the idea of cows coming down has been planned. He doesn't know nor care about what Zoochatters think is "best" for the American Population.

As for their breeding future, Charlie Gray has stated multiple times that he's confident that ALS will be grandfathered in to any sort of breeding ban and thus will be able to operate as normal (assuming they import a bull before then) until they reach capacity or need a new bull. It's been discussed on here many times as well. Laws like this are complex after all, and I'm not at all confident that such a ban would be black and white, especially to a facility with a long-established and acclaimed breeding record like ALS. The law wouldn't require ALS to uproot and export all of their animals either, that's not in any way plausible for more than a few logistics reasons.
I wouldn't be so quick to doubt them importing a new bull. I believe it was stated as recently as last year that they hoped to import one.

 

[The Horse Boy]

As for their breeding future, Charlie Gray has stated multiple times that he's confident that ALS will be grandfathered in to any sort of breeding ban and thus will be able to operate as normal (assuming they import a bull before then) until they reach capacity. Laws like this are complex after all, and I'm not at all confident that such a ban would be black and white, especially to a facility with a long-established and acclaimed breeding record like ALS. I wouldn't be so quick to doubt them importing a new bull.

If the ban is not too black and white, then I suppose the African trio at Granby and the couple at Parc Safari could head to Americans zoos or TES depending on their reproductive viablities. Canada has seen lots of phasing outs over the past 10-15 years now, and very soon ALS could be the facility for people to see pachyderms in Canada if their breeding program is under grandfather clause like you mentioned

 

[ZCChip]

Charlie Gray is the one primarily "in charge" of elephant decisions to my understanding, so he's the main reason, yes. He's a knowledgeable elephant man but is old-fashioned in his instance on charging large sums of money to sell his cows. For both public opinion reasons and funding reasons, it hasn't happened often that the idea of cows coming down has been planned. He doesn't know nor care about what Zoochatters think is "best" for the American Population.

As for their breeding future, Charlie Gray has stated multiple times that he's confident that ALS will be grandfathered in to any sort of breeding ban and thus will be able to operate as normal (assuming they import a bull before then) until they reach capacity or need a new bull. It's been discussed on here many times as well. Laws like this are complex after all, and I'm not at all confident that such a ban would be black and white, especially to a facility with a long-established and acclaimed breeding record like ALS. The law wouldn't require ALS to uproot and export all of their animals either, that's not in any way plausible for more than a few logistics reasons.
I wouldn't be so quick to doubt them importing a new bull. I believe it was stated as recently as last year that they hoped to import one.

He is also an old school trainer. He still uses the bullhook and as of several years ago, still chains his cows in the barn. Any cow entering the USA will have to be trained to use protected contact.

There may not be any imports from Canada for a few years under our current administration with the tariffs and now Canada and USA governments are not on good terms with each other so we will have to wait for the new administration to come in and mend fences.

I think the best option USA has is to wait Charlie Gray out.

 

[The Horse Boy]

He is also an old school trainer. He still uses the bullhook and as of several years ago, still chains his cows in the barn. Any cow entering the USA will have to be trained to use protected contact.

The fact that the ALS elephants are still trained in free contact with outdated circus style approaches such as the use of bullhooks (which was banned in 2016 in the US), chaining their legs, and they seem to have a special pen where staff present the animal perform special tricks which ig are specifically done to entertain visitors rather than for medical checkups. These whole management ideas are just abominable. No AZA zoo in the US would even dare to work with elephants that way amd even hundreds of elephant facilities in Europe have made their way to PC. No good zoo would make their elephants stand on a large ball for that matter

 

[ZCChip]

The fact that the ALS elephants are still trained in free contact with outdated circus style approaches such as the use of bullhooks (which was banned in 2016 in the US), chaining their legs, and they seem to have a special pen where staff present the animal perform special tricks which ig are specifically done to entertain visitors rather than for medical checkups. These whole management ideas are just abominable. No AZA zoo in the US would even dare to work with elephants that way amd even hundreds of elephant facilities in Europe have made their way to PC. No good zoo would make their elephants stand on a large ball for that matter

Actually, there are some AZA elephant facilities that still believe in this, they just wouldn't do it in the public anymore. You will see a bullhook the Pari Daiza Facebook video that they posted of the cow giving birth a few days ago in the European Asian elephant thread.

AZA requires all elephants to be in the PC now as they are in the same category as big cats.

The ALS elephants will adjust easily I am sure to PC since they would know many same cues (down, foot, etc).

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

He is also an old school trainer. He still uses the bullhook and as of several years ago, still chains his cows in the barn. Any cow entering the USA will have to be trained to use protected contact.

There may not be any imports from Canada for a few years under our current administration with the tariffs and now Canada and USA governments are not on good terms with each other so we will have to wait for the new administration to come in and mend fences.

I think the best option USA has is to wait Charlie Gray out.

ALS doesn't appear to have a longterm future in elephant holding if the law does pass. Even if they're grandfathered in, as I suspect they will be, I'm sure importing new bulls to continue their breeding program would be a headache or even impossible under the restrictions. If they import before anything goes into effect they could have another decade or so of breeding potential in them, but I seriously doubt their group can grow that much more before they just run out of barn space.
Their entire set up is just outdated but easily could be expanded given the available space. All they really need to do is expand the barn, update the holding yards and secure their large yard so that the elephants can be turned out there without keeper supervision. Obviously things I can't see happening due to the impending changes but it's really a shame since they have the potential for a wonderful set-up.

I don't remember who posted this, but last year it was stated by a user that ALS had "controversial" plans regarding their elephants so I have to wonder what that could be and if it's related to the future restrictions.

 

[ZCChip]

ALS doesn't appear to have a longterm future in elephant holding if the law does pass. Even if they're grandfathered in, as I suspect they will be, I'm sure importing new bulls to continue their breeding program would be a headache or even impossible under the restrictions. If they import before anything goes into effect they could have another decade or so of breeding potential in them, but I seriously doubt their group can grow that much more before they just run out of barn space.
Their entire set up is just outdated but easily could be expanded given the available space. All they really need to do is expand the barn, update the holding yards and secure their large yard so that the elephants can be turned out there without keeper supervision. Obviously, things I can't see happening due to the impending changes but it's really a shame since they have the potential for a wonderful set-up.

And they have all of those woods behind the facilities that they have to supervise the elephants.

I don't remember who posted this, but last year it was stated by a user that ALS had "controversial" plans regarding their elephants so I have to wonder what that could be and if it's related to the future restrictions.

Wasn't Charlie Gray in Europe last year? I wonder the "controversial" plan includes taking some of the cows to Europe in exchange for a bull? I know Europe does not need any more cows, but the key word is controversial. Since USA and Canada are not workable for a few more years at least. Nobody wants to pay $100,000 for a cow plus I am guessing 25% tariff (that is what the cars are being charged, I could not find any on animals). So, the cost would be $125,000, and more if daughter and more adult cows come with her. Zoos would be worried about reduced attendance as well due to the costs of things going up. Shaky economy.