North American Asian Elephant Population 2025

The Horse Boy said:
I already said earlier today that's it's because he did witness any natural breeding manuvers from mature bulls at his hometown in case you didn't see.
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I saw. So in other words you're making an assumption. It's been rehashed on here multiple times that Asian bulls tend to struggle less with breeding naturally even when not exposed to those behaviors as calves. Bowie himself falls in that category and look at where he is now. Kandula's upbringing COULD be a factor in why he isn't breeding at OKC, but there's likely more going on in this situation than we know.
I'd caution against throwing out loose terms like this without confirmation. Kandula is still a young bull yet, he has time to prove himself.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I saw. So in other words you're making an assumption. It's been rehashed on here multiple times that Asian bulls tend to struggle less with breeding naturally even when not exposed to those behaviors as calves. Bowie himself falls in that category and look at where he is now. Kandula's upbringing COULD be a factor in why he isn't breeding at OKC, but there's likely more going on in this situation than we know.
I'd caution against throwing out loose terms like this without confirmation. Kandula is still a young bull yet, he has time to prove himself.
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I'm sorry about unintentionally being cynical and insulting kandula. I did not know FYI. I did just discover that Bowie was ai born with sperms donated to Bluebonnet from Samson at Oregon- side note: that bull was inhabiting ABQ at the time. Yet he's become a great early bird in producing calves. Bowie has observed a few natural breeding at his hometown, Fort Worth, which explains it.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
I'm sorry about unintentionally being cynical and insulting kandula. I did not know FYI. I did just discover that Bowie was ai born with sperms donated to Bluebonnet from Samson at Oregon- side note: he was living at ABQ at the time. Yet he's become a great early breeder. Bowie has observed a few natural breeding at his hometown, Fort Worth.
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As far as I know Romeo was not mixed with the girls when Bowie and Belle were calves. I could 100% be wrong about that though.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
As far as I know Romeo was not mixed with the girls when Bowie and Belle were calves. I could 100% be wrong about that though.
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I think ur guess was true. The only Romeo calves born in Ft Worth are Brazos (2021) and Travis (2023). They have seen 2 only 2 successful breeding attempts when they were abt 5 and 7. I'm a tad dumbfounded that Bowie seeing even just two successful breeding attempts and births did not derail him inseminating Achara at OKC two years ago.
 
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It’s not that easy! Many bulls who never whitnessed mating behavoir when growing up do breed sucessfully, especially when it comes to Asian elephants. African bulls have more difficulities. And we do not know yet what (African) bulls need to become sucessful breeders. We know that those who grow up in big groups with serveral adult females, other calves of different ages and a big breeding bull most often become sucessful breeding bulls themselves. But it is not known which of those elements is crucial. Maybe play-mounting with other calves is actually more important then seeing sexual behavoir/mating.
 
Yassa said:
It’s not that easy! Many bulls who never whitnessed mating behavoir when growing up do breed sucessfully, especially when it comes to Asian elephants. African bulls have more difficulities. And we do not know yet what (African) bulls need to become sucessful breeders. We know that those who grow up in big groups with serveral adult females, other calves of different ages and a big breeding bull most often become sucessful breeding bulls themselves. But it is not known which of those elements is crucial. Maybe play-mounting with other calves is actually more important then seeing sexual behavoir/mating.
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I was going to ask why African bulls tend to struggle more with breeding if they have not witnessed natural breeding and courting demeanors during calf hoods in captive environments.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I have read some of smithsonian's elephant history to clarify. I saw kandula was ai born. This webpage will prove it if y'all are skeptical

Kandula at Oklahoma City Zoo in United States - Elephant Encyclopedia and Database
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A calf being born by AI doesn't automatically mean that they're a behavioural non-breeder. The kicker is typically whether or not natural breeding was witnessed during their formative years, which you are correct on - he largely did not.

Bowie was also produced through AI, but has gone on to successfully sire young. I think the difference may be him bearing witness to Romeo at Ft Worth before his departure. However, from what I understand - Kandula has at least tried to breed with the females at OKC over the years, and his positioning itself has just been off. Furthermore, I remember there was some chatter on here from some reputable individuals as to the validity of Bowie being 100% the father.

Finally - unless something has changed, Kandula specifically had a non-breeding recommendation in that SSP document from a few years ago when it was uncovered.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It's likely a combination of factors.
There aren't really any breeding facilities that really need a new bull at the moment outside of what is currently planned, and Kandula's genetic value is really up in the air depending on how you look at it.
He is also a companion to Bowie who, at 10 years old, absolutely needs the company and mentorship of another bull. He and Kandula enjoy each others' company and are very well integrated, even being able to share a yard with the cow group.
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A question I have to add to this - how are they able to maintain adult males (of which at least one is proven) with the family group without Kairavi falling pregnant? I would assume she is cycling by now, but she is not quite the minimum age to be bred in the AZA/SSP's eyes. Are they just kind of taking an indifferent attitude towards it?
 
HawkAlot said:
A question I have to add to this - how are they able to maintain adult males (of which at least one is proven) with the family group without Kairavi falling pregnant? I would assume she is cycling by now, but she is not quite the minimum age to be bred in the AZA/SSP's eyes. Are they just kind of taking an indifferent attitude towards it?
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Weekly blood draws are regular practice in all AZA breeding facilities to check for EEHV. They often collect this blood regularly for their cycling females so they can track their hormones. This allows them to track females progesterone to know when she’s cycling. Most females are also pretty regular so they cycle every 3ish months(roughly 90 to 100 days) so it can be pretty predictable and their caregivers will know when to expect it.

Their management then makes the call on when to run the bulls with them or not.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
As far as I know Romeo was not mixed with the girls when Bowie and Belle were calves. I could 100% be wrong about that though.
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It is important to note that Romeo didn't arrive in Fort Worth until 2015, when the calves were two years old, the bull there at the time was Casey, who is now at White Oak, and left at the same time Romeo arrived. The zoo waited a year or two before introducing him to Bluebonnet, and later Belle, and within a couple of years he got Bluebonnet, then the next year Belle, pregnant. I would like to point out when Casey arrived in Fort Worth in the fall of 2005, the intention was for him to breed Angel (who at the time was 16 and right around the average first-time breeding age for female elephants), the late Babe (who had two previous stillbirths and no surviving calf, one of which was twins), and Bluebonnet (then aged seven, so just entering breeding age). I believe the intention was still for Rasha to breed with Groucho as she already had and Kimbo was. He did successfully impregnate Babe only a few months after arrival, but sadly, Babe died alongside her unborn calf. However, it is important to note that it is extremely likely that Casey's failure to get Bluebonnet pregnant in those first few years is the reason the zoo artificially inseminated her and had Bowie, and that was probably why the zoo made the decision to send Casey away and replace him with another bull. I have no doubts that the zoo also artificially inseminated Angel around the same time as when Bluebonnet got pregnant, but that also would not have worked out on her. Had Casey been more successful in breeding Fort Worth's girls, I could have very well seen him remaining as Fort Worth's breeding bull.
 
It is possible that OKC did not want a calf from Kandula because with Bowie they could say they have a multiple generation captive bred elephant which they succeeded with.

As for non behavioral breeders, sometimes I think it is not always the learned skill. I mean, how do we get here? Our parents or grandparents or great grand parents probably never were explained about sex! No sex education, books, videos, or anything of the sort. How did they figure it out? Nature. As we have seen with some bulls like Hank, it is other things like discomfort or being a fatty :) Or the cow refusing the reception of the bull, or personality clashes. The list goes on. Mothering is definitely more complex than mating, it requires learned skill and support. Just like any human mother, they learn also.

Kandula is his mother's only living calf and she was wild caught so he is quite valuable. He just needs the right situation and opportunity.
 
ZCChip said:
It is possible that OKC did not want a calf from Kandula because with Bowie they could say they have a multiple generation captive bred elephant which they succeeded with.
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Breeding recommendations are made independent of what zoos think would sound good in a press release or would consider bragging rights. It’s mentioned further up thread that Kandula previously had a non-breeding recommendation (which could still be the case).
ZCChip said:
As for non behavioral breeders, sometimes I think it is not always the learned skill. I mean, how do we get here? Our parents or grandparents or great grand parents probably never were explained about sex! No sex education, books, videos, or anything of the sort. How did they figure it out? Nature. As we have seen with some bulls like Hank, it is other things like discomfort or being a fatty :) Or the cow refusing the reception of the bull, or personality clashes. The list goes on. Mothering is definitely more complex than mating, it requires learned skill and support. Just like any human mother, they learn also.
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It’s debatable, but most sources agree juvenile bulls and cows that have the opportunity to observe adults mating and then practice mounting with their peers are more likely to become successful breeders.

There will always be exceptions and pairing a bull with no experience of witnessing matings with a proven cow could well yield results via trial and error if he has the drive to mate with her at least.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Breeding recommendations are made independent of what zoos think would sound good in a press release or would consider bragging rights. It’s mentioned further up thread that Kandula previously had a non-breeding recommendation (which could still be the case).
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Oh definitely!!! That too!!

It’s debatable, but most sources agree juvenile bulls and cows that have the opportunity to observe adults mating and then practice mounting with their peers are more likely to become successful breeders.

There will always be exceptions and pairing a bull with no experience of witnessing matings with a proven cow could well yield results via trial and error if he has the drive to mate with her at least.
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Of course, sex has gotten better for humans in the last few decades. Because we took time to understand biology and reproduction for humans and animals. We are seeing more calves because we took time to understand that the cows need to be younger for successful pregnancies, and that bulls need to learn by observation. Now we have a better weapon against EEHV also.
 
ZCChip said:
Oh definitely!!! That too!!



Of course, sex has gotten better for humans in the last few decades. Because we took time to understand biology and reproduction for humans and animals. We are seeing more calves because we took time to understand that the cows need to be younger for successful pregnancies, and that bulls need to learn by observation. Now we have a better weapon against EEHV also.
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These are why I think the whole present and future of the American elephant population on both species is much better and brighter than before, even with all the phase outs that have and will occur. Patience is the key to genuine bliss as I've been taught during my youth
 
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ZCChip said:
We are seeing more calves because we took time to understand that the cows need to be younger for successful pregnancies, and that bulls need to learn by observation. Now we have a better weapon against EEHV also.
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Elephant husbandry has evolved immeasurably over the past decades. Articles I’ve read from 40-50 years ago detail making observations of behavioural cues (e.g. receptivity to the bull) as the sole method to ascertain if a cow was ovulating. This is now routinely tracked by blood tests, with sufficient accuracy to use it as a means to prevent pregnancy.

There’s a long road ahead in the fight against EEHV. Multiple elephants have received the trial vaccine and over the coming years, we can hopefully get a better idea of the effectiveness of this with an ever growing sample size of elephants.
 
Zoofan15 said:
There’s a long road ahead in the fight against EEHV. Multiple elephants have received the trial vaccine and over the coming years, we can hopefully get a better idea of the effectiveness of this with an ever growing sample size of elephants.
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I just hope the vaccine can cover the broad range of EEHV. It seemed to me there is more than one strain, just like COVID with at least two or three because viruses have a way of evolving.
 
The Horse Boy said:
These are why I think the whole present and future of the American elephant population on both species is much better and brighter than before, even with all the phase outs that have and will occur. Patience is the key to genuine bliss as I've been taught during my youth
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And hopefully the phase outs will include a plan for older cows and a future plan to house bachelor herds.
 
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