Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

[Zoofan15]

If Adelaide did not drop out from holding Gorillas it could have been a real game changer in the overall scheme of thing having so few holders in the region has a negative effect on the way thing are managed!

Sydney Zoo was another great loss to the regional population. Coupled with Orana’s failed plans to acquire a breeding troop from Europe, we could have had an additional bachelor holder and a breeding troop, which could be supplying Melbourne, Taronga and Mogo with young females in the not too distant future.

Adelaide like you say, was another great loss. I imagine a breeding troop at Adleaide would have been supported by a bachelor troop at Monarto in years to come.

 

[Zorro]

Sydney Zoo was another great loss to the regional population. Coupled with Orana’s failed plans to acquire a breeding troop from Europe, we could have had an additional bachelor holder and a breeding troop, which could be supplying Melbourne, Taronga and Mogo with young females in the not too distant future.

Adelaide like you say, was another great loss. I imagine a breeding troop at Adleaide would have been supported by a bachelor troop at Monarto in years to come.

I agree that would of made a big difference and until there is a couple more holders its going to be difficult to get a regional program running smoothly

 

[Zoofan15]

I agree that would of made a big difference and until there is a couple more holders its going to be difficult to get a regional program running smoothly

I agree. Taronga’s adolescent males are aged 11, 10 and 8. It’s a miracle Kibale has tolerated them for as long as he has. Taronga will need to split the troop in two within the next year or so (if not before). If Orana could accomodate the three adolescents, that’d be ideal (potentially integrating them with their older bachelor duo).

Mogo after their failed attempt to import a female will probably continue to run their stable troop as it is for the foreseeable, hopefully without the loss of both of the older females before Kipenzi’s daughter reaches adolescence.

 

[Zorro]

I agree. Taronga’s adolescent males are aged 11, 10 and 8. It’s a miracle Kibale has tolerated them for as long as he has. Taronga will need to split the troop in two within the next year or so (if not before). If Orana could accomodate the three adolescents, that’d be ideal (potentially integrating them with their older bachelor duo).

Mogo after their failed attempt to import a female will probably continue to run their stable troop as it is for the foreseeable, hopefully without the loss of both of the older females before Kipenzi’s daughter reaches adolescence.

My view is the Melbourne female would go to Mogo zoo

 

[Zoofan15]

My view is the Melbourne female would go to Mogo zoo

Assuming Frala and Mbeli remain at Taronga, that’s entirely possible. Although she’s the niece of Kipenzi, demographically she’s at the ideal age to transfer to a new troop and she would observe the raising of an infant for the first time, invaluable experience ahead of breeding herself.

Prague’s troop contains two breeding females (grandmother and granddaughter), so clearly the species coordinator isn’t adverse to placing two related females in the same breeding troop.

 

[Jambo]

I stilll think there trying to place Otana. So they can then receive the Taronga boys as a bachelor troop.

The best bet of one of Werribee’s younger males going into a breeding situation would be if Motaba and then the other passes while the third is still relatively young.

The other option in all this to consider is that it might be possible to integrate Taronga’s three adolescent males with Werribee’s troop. Especially with Motaba’s age, it would be advisable to do this sooner rather than later, so he’s not confronted with a prime aged incoming male at his stage of life; but with a big exhibit and Yakini (the silverback) to keep the adolescents in check, never say never. It’d avoid the above scenario of one of the males being left alone if breeding is not in the long term plans for them.

I asked during my visit and was told there were no plans to move any of the Werribee boys out into breeding situations. Not only were they hand raised (and so aren't ideal to lead troops), but they're evidently settled in this bachelor group which is the best result for them.

I was also told they wouldn't add to the grouping come Motaba's passing. Ganyeka's a bit of a trouble maker, and likes to stir up the other two so I was told introducing any other males would be difficult due to his nature.

 

[Zoofan15]

I asked during my visit and was told there were no plans to move any of the Werribee boys out into breeding situations. Not only were they hand raised (and so aren't ideal to lead troops), but they're evidently settled in this bachelor group which is the best result for them.

I was also told they wouldn't add to the grouping come Motaba's passing. Ganyeka's a bit of a trouble maker, and likes to stir up the other two so I was told introducing any other males would be difficult due to his nature.

That’s a shame, but perfectly understandable. Melbourne’s handraised gorillas over the years have left a legacy of social deficiencies in their descendants - namely the behavioural non-breeder Johari; so it’s understandable the two younger Werribee males wouldn’t be considered role model silverbacks.

Especially once Motaba passes, the massive Werribee exhibit almost seems wasted on such a small bachelor troop; but if they were moved to Melbourne, I guess there’s the risk that a reduction in exhibit size could instigate fighting.

 

[Jambo]

That’s a shame, but perfectly understandable. Melbourne’s handraised gorillas over the years have left a legacy of social deficiencies in their descendants - namely the behavioural non-breeder Johari; so it’s understandable the two younger Werribee males wouldn’t be considered role model silverbacks.

Especially once Motaba passes, the massive Werribee exhibit almost seems wasted on such a small bachelor troop; but if they were moved to Melbourne, I guess there’s the risk that a reduction in exhibit size could instigate fighting.

It is as absolute shame; but another point mentioned was that neither male was really genetically valuable to the point where thrusting said male into a breeding situation would be worthwhile.

On their maternal sides; Ganyeka has a plethora of cousins in the US, whilst Yakini's mother's line is carried by her grandson Mapema via Mzuri. The real loss here is Johari - she was her wildborn mother's only surviving offspring and an offspring from her would've been very very valuable, had she conceived with Kibali.

I'd pretty much guarantee fighting would occur if Ganyeka and Yakini were moved back to Melbourne in the event Motaba passes. At the present time, I was told all three males completely utilise the whole enclosure. They each have their own spots, and Ganyeka especially gets annoyed when his father or brother are in his usual areas. I guess Melbourne's exhibit is still sizeable, but it's probably half the size of Werribee's at most.

 

[Tiger91]

I asked during my visit and was told there were no plans to move any of the Werribee boys out into breeding situations. Not only were they hand raised (and so aren't ideal to lead troops), but they're evidently settled in this bachelor group which is the best result for them.

I was also told they wouldn't add to the grouping come Motaba's passing. Ganyeka's a bit of a trouble maker, and likes to stir up the other two so I was told introducing any other males would be difficult due to his nature.

I get why they don't want to use them but it's unfortunate that they won't use them for breeding.

 

[Zoofan15]

I get why they don't want to use them but it's unfortunate that they won't use them for breeding.

Motaba has reached an impressive age and there’s no reason to believe his sons shouldn’t too, but should the deaths of Motaba and one of his sons leave one alone while still in his twenties (or even thirties), the zoo will be obliged to work with the species coordinator to provide companionship.

Potentially they could look at pairing the remaining male with young females on contraception (who would then join a breeding troop).

 

[Jambo]

Motaba has reached an impressive age and there’s no reason to believe his sons shouldn’t too, but should the deaths of Motaba and one of his sons leave one alone while still in his twenties (or even thirties), the zoo will be obliged to work with the species coordinator to provide companionship.

Potentially they could look at pairing the remaining male with young females on contraception (who would then join a breeding troop).

That will likely occur eventually - although I wonder at that point whether Werribee may be content with just letting whichever of the two brothers is left to remain by himself.

All three males are quite independent, but the keeper I talked to noted that all three still very much operate as a loose knit family. Apparently when one male doesn't come out of the dens in the morning, the others will notice and bang on the doors until he appears.

I do think that possibility you've presented might be the best possibility for one of Werribee's males to at least be considered for breeding. In saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if they just attempted to introduce younger males and continue with bachelor holdings there.

 

[Zoofan15]

That will likely occur eventually - although I wonder at that point whether Werribee may be content with just letting whichever of the two brothers is left to remain by himself.

All three males are quite independent, but the keeper I talked to noted that all three still very much operate as a loose knit family. Apparently when one male doesn't come out of the dens in the morning, the others will notice and bang on the doors until he appears.

I do think that possibility you've presented might be the best possibility for one of Werribee's males to at least be considered for breeding. In saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if they just attempted to introduce younger males and continue with bachelor holdings there.

Ultimately we can expect it to be influenced by the demographics of the region. Here and now, integrating the remaining male (should the troop be reduced to one) with Taronga’s three adolescents would be an obvious move; but in all likelihood these males will be in their 20’s and long gone elsewhere (probably Orana).

Here and now, G-Anne and Johari are settled in their troops, but fall outs or the unexpected death of Kibale could prove a catalyst for them to move out. Given G-Anne’s age, I anticipate she’ll remain at Mogo for life however. They even accommodated her alongside the others for many years.

 

[Zorro]

Ultimately we can expect it to be influenced by the demographics of the region. Here and now, integrating the remaining male (should the troop be reduced to one) with Taronga’s three adolescents would be an obvious move; but in all likelihood these males will be in their 20’s and long gone elsewhere (probably Orana).

Here and now, G-Anne and Johari are settled in their troops, but fall outs or the unexpected death of Kibale could prove a catalyst for them to move out. Given G-Anne’s age, I anticipate she’ll remain at Mogo for life however. They even accommodated her alongside the others for many years.

Both Gorillas and Orangs would benefit from more holders in the region until then I believe both species will struggle in the short and long term management

 

[Zoofan15]

Both Gorillas and Orangs would benefit from more holders in the region until then I believe both species will struggle in the short and long term management

I agree. At a minimum the region needs one additional bachelor holder unless Taronga’s adolescent males are to go to Orana Wildlife Park; or be accommodated at Taronga Zoo long term.

Beyond that, there’s Kaius at Mogo coming through, but my assumption is Mogo would accomodate him on site in a bachelor troop with any brothers/half-brothers sired by Kisane in the breeding troop.

An additional breeding holder would be good. Males produced now could join the same cohort as Kaius; and females could be transferred to Melbourne and Taronga. Taronga’s eldest female is 44 years of age and her inevitable demise will leave Taronga with two adult females (one non-breeding).

 

[Zorro]

I agree. At a minimum the region needs one additional bachelor holder unless Taronga’s adolescent males are to go to Orana Wildlife Park; or be accommodated at Taronga Zoo long term.

Beyond that, there’s Kaius at Mogo coming through, but my assumption is Mogo would accomodate him on site in a bachelor troop with any brothers/half-brothers sired by Kisane in the breeding troop.

An additional breeding holder would be good. Males produced now could join the same cohort as Kaius; and females could be transferred to Melbourne and Taronga. Taronga’s eldest female is 44 years of age and her inevitable demise will leave Taronga with two adult females (one non-breeding).

Adelaides plan would of been ideal if they went ahead with it!

 

[Zoofan15]

Adelaides plan would have been ideal if they went ahead with it!

It really would as not only would we have a breeding troop at Adelaide Zoo, but I’d have been amazed if they hadn’t built a bachelor gorilla exhibit at Monarto to accomodate young males born in the Adelaide troop.

While the simplest way to address the lack of females in Melbourne’s troop is a swap with Taronga (Frala and Mbeli for Kanzi), the import of females from overseas could allow the region to establish a female line independent of the well represented Mouila line.

 

[Jambo]

Upcoming Gorilla Transfer/s:

Was at Melbourne today. Both gorillas were out and about. Kanzi was her usual hyperactive self and was running across the exhibit, stealing her father's food and bedding. Otana honestly seems to have grown even more and I noticed he has a similar stature to Motoba; both being smaller, bulky males.

Anyhow - the biggest news out of the visit is that two females from Taronga will be transferred down before September, which is great news for the regeneration of Melbourne's breeding program.

The volunteer I talked to couldn't name the two gorillas but said they were the two 'younger girls', so I think it's safe to assume that one of the females is Mbeli (2003). Mbeli's a proven breeder and it's hoped she'll conceive with Otana upon her return to Melbourne. The other female I presume is Johari (2000) who was born at Melbourne based on the information provided.

The volunteer mentioned the hope was for the other female (obviously not Mbeli) to conceive too, although she implied it was less likely. I acknowledge Frala (1981) is also a possibility due to her age, hence her chances of breeding being limited; however the volunteer seemed adamant on them being the two young girls.

The volunteer also said there was a big focus on Kanzi being able to witness the raising of a gorilla infant which will be important in the event she does transfer out of the group to breed. The volunteer confirmed however that she will remain for the meantime.

Ultimately, this move leaves Taronga in a position where they'll ultimately have the four males and a single female remaining.

I'm assuming the plan is to send the other female (Frala, or Johari) to Mogo who've been wanting an extra female. Based on the information I was given, it seems it will be Frala moving to Mogo. If so, she'll rejoin Kriba and Kipenzi. In the case it's Johari, she'll be able to rejoin G Ann, who she knew from her time at Melbourne.

That would leave Taronga with Kibali and his three sons, who will likely remain there as a bachelor troop for the foreseeable. Kibali's quite valuable so it's also possible he could eventually be moved into a breeding troop again. Or at least his one of his sons will get the opportunity to breed, likely Fabumi (2015).

 

[Jambo]

Fully agree. I’ve been saying for months that Frala and Mbeli should go to Melbourne Zoo.

It’s last chance saloon for Frala to breed, but should she be able to, the benefits of having an infant will outweigh everything else; and ultimately it would be in her best welfare interests assuming no underlying health issues have been identified.

Frala was the third ranking of the three females in Kibabu’s troop, but at least she had a succession of offspring. She was never alone. Johari has been an outcast on the periphery, which wouldn’t be such an issue in Mogo’s troop, where G-Anne is in the same boat.

Mogo’s troop is basically:

1. Kisane and Kipenzi (power couple) and their daughter.
2. Kriba, second ranking female and her surrogate son.
3. G-Anne (peripheral female/outcast).
Johari would likely assume the same role as G-Anne.

I've also long been of the opinion that Taronga and Melbourne should essentially 'merge' their breeding groups into one. The supposed lack of females from Europe is an issue, so it made little sense to just have one designated breeding female at either facility when the bachelor males needed to be accommodated asap.

In the event Frala is sent down to Melbourne and is given the opportunity to breed, the earliest Frala could birth is the middle of next year, at the age of 45. It would certainly be a global record for her species what I can gather - so slim chances.

At the very least, being used to living on the periphery of previous troops she'll be able to retire comfortably in a similar position, perhaps playing an aunty role to any offspring born to Mbeli.

 

[Zoofan15]

I've also long been of the opinion that Taronga and Melbourne should essentially 'merge' their breeding groups into one. The supposed lack of females from Europe is an issue, so it made little sense to just have one designated breeding female at either facility when the bachelor males needed to be accommodated asap.

In the event Frala is sent down to Melbourne and is given the opportunity to breed, the earliest Frala could birth is the middle of next year, at the age of 45. It would certainly be a global record for her species what I can gather - so slim chances.

At the very least, being used to living on the periphery of previous troops she'll be able to retire comfortably in a similar position, perhaps playing an aunty role to any offspring born to Mbeli.

I’ve said from the beginning, the two best options were to either swap Frala/Mbeli for Kanzi and seperate off Taronga’s adolescent males; or disband Taronga’s breeding troop and have Frala and Mbeli go to Melbourne; and Johari to Mogo. Ultimately the lack of options for accomodating Taronga’s bachelor gorillas (at Taronga or within the region) has necessitated the latter.

Time will tell if these are the designations for Frala/Johari, but we can all agree there’s countless reasons to allocate them: Frala (Melbourne) and Johari (Mogo). It’s low risk and would benefit both females socially.

I know Female gorillas have tried and failed to carry an infant to term in their late 30’s, so breeding from Frala is a long shot. She last gave birth in 2019, so whether being reproductively active six years ago will go in her favour remains to be seen.

The retention of Kanzi makes sense as aside from having limited breeding application and options within the region (it’s really just Mogo now), she’ll have the opportunity to learn mothering skills via observation. Especially if/when she breeds, Mbeli will establish herself as Otana’s favourite female and so retaining Kanzi will ensure Frala is not the sole outsider to this central clique.

 

[Zorro]

I believe the biggest hurdle for both Gorillas and Orangs is the fact the lack of holders within the region the largest blow in my view was that Adelaide has now changed its mind with its master plan not to include Gorillas. If they, Perth and even the Sydney zoo where to hold them the picture could be a lot better, It seems not that long ago both Taronga and Melbourne zoos had both wonderful breeding groups, unfortunately now they find themselves utterly reliant on wether they can now import some new females from some European zoos that are willing to let them go.
I wonder how far the species planning goes into the future? in any case a long term plan needs to be worked out.
Another missed opportunity was Australia zoo not following up on their plan of becoming another holder in the region the picture could have been a whole lot brighter if it had gone ahead!