European (Tea)Cup - League F - Prague vs Tierpark Berlin

Prague vs Tierpark Berlin - AFRICA

  • Prague 4/1 Tierpark Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tierpark Berlin 4/1 Prague

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tierpark Berlin 5/0 Prague

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
The category for this one is AFRICA - as neither collection have lost a match thus far, this will be a very interesting one. Remember, the general quality of the overall discussion will be enhanced if you provide details about the relative merits of the collections at hand, and go into your thought processes and reasoning for voting as you do!
 
Oooh, boy, this one is going to be the big one.

TBH, I'm not completely sure this is T-Berlin's strongest suite. It's got plenty of African animals of course, and they're typically in really good exhibits, but nothing there really screams "Africa" to me, at least not in comparison to some of its other categories, like "Mountains" or "Asia" or "Hoofstock".
 
This is epic :) Very difficult decision that requires serious analyses and probably will come to the small details. If the Elephant House was ready, I'd probably go for Tierpark Berlin, but Prague's current African status is a nanometer stronger in my opinion. Not without flaws, but with more diverse collection. I will start with 3-2 for Prague, but I am uncertain for my final decision.
 
I think that Africa Close Up, Shoebill and great apes will be decisive. 3-2 in favor of Prague for now.
 
This is a very close one indeed - can't comprehensively say what's in TP Berlin off the top of my head but there's some seriously good exhibits - the Madagascar part of the Primates house, plus the geladas, the exceptional savanna plus giraffe exhibits, the gerenuks, okapis, reedbucks, various gazelles, lemur woods, the hyenas...

On the other hand there's Prague, with shoebills, a couple of those cliffside exhibits, Africa up close, brown hyenas, gorillas, savanna exhibit, hippos, various antelope, plus both the penguins and the fur seals. Pretty astounding, and it's going to have to be Prague as I don't think TP Berlin can match this, exhibitry or rarity-wise.
 
a couple of those cliffside exhibits,

Please correct me if i'm wrong but there is only one exhibit that counts? Barbary sheep + macaque.

Although Prague has Shoebills, Brown Hyenas, Honey badger and many other i think it isn't their best category. (And Berlin also have a bunch of rarities). The hippo exhibit is pretty poor (especially since it is quite new). Africa close up has a strong species line up and while parts of it are still good, some parts haven't aged that well. Although the outdoor areas at Dja look nicer by every visit, i'm still not a huge fan of the indoor area (design). The better savannah exhibit is imo at Berlin. They have an insane amount of rare african ungulates at Berlin and although their stock is probably less diverse missing in particular the smaller species of Pragues Africa close up i think this time the overall better exhibit quality at Berlin leads to a German victory here.
 
I've voted 3-2 for Tierpark Berlin.

Per my statement elsewhere that I want to avoid being the only one to provide comprehensive breakdowns of the species offerings at the two collections in question, and hence risking bias, I would like to remind people to post their thoughts and reasoning, with photographs (personal or from the gallery) as supplementary illustration :)

Please correct me if i'm wrong but there is only one exhibit that counts? Barbary sheep + macaque.

Although Prague has Shoebills, Brown Hyenas, Honey badger and many other i think it isn't their best category. (And Berlin also have a bunch of rarities). The hippo exhibit is pretty poor (especially since it is quite new). Africa close up has a strong species line up and while parts of it are still good, some parts haven't aged that well. Although the outdoor areas at Dja look nicer by every visit, i'm still not a huge fan of the indoor area (design). The better savannah exhibit is imo at Berlin. They have an insane amount of rare african ungulates at Berlin and although their stock is probably less diverse missing in particular the smaller species of Pragues Africa close up i think this time the overall better exhibit quality at Berlin leads to a German victory here.

Avoiding going into detail about my own reasoning to (again) avoid bias or overly influencing the match, but your thinking is more or less mine in this regard.
 
I have been looking forward to this one. On form, the two favourites to win the Cup, being the only sides that have won every game they have played thus far. It reminds me a little of Liverpool / PSG in the Champions League this year, or Spain / Germany in the last Euros, in that you feel as though it really should be the final.

Have only been to Prague, and will start with a 3-2 in their favour until more information is provided, as I have the feeling that they are really strong in this category. Looking forward to hearing more from the Tierpark's supporters here, though.

Here is a photographic overview of Prague's African offerings:

Africa Up Close:

An interesting exhibit devoted to the smaller and more overlooked fauna of Africa, something which has invaluable educational significance given how often the continent is perceived as only housing megafauna by the general public. Here, you will find some species such as porcupines and lemurs that are well-known to the public, but several others that are not, with the design of the house (being winding corridor with floor-to-ceiling, glass-walled enclosures protruding into the visitor path) being quite engaging.

See here for a species list. There are quite a few good rarities here, such as Garnett's Greater Bushbaby, Mechow's Mole-rat, Bush Hyrax, Black-and-rufous Sengi and Vaillant's Mabuya.

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@Robaque - possibly the highlight of the pavilion is the huge troop of Senegal Bushbabies (I counted 8 or 9 but there could have been more) in a sizeable room shared with giant jumping rats. Adjacent are Moholi Bushbabies living with tenrecs. It is normally in a night-time light setup.

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@Robaque - Bush Hyrax enclosure, shared with the non-African Belanger's Treeshrew.

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@lintworm - general view inside the pavilion. Mole-rats on the left, bushbabies seen from the hut on the right, snakes and honey badgers straight ahead.

Probably my favourite enclosure in the building is barely pictured: that for Mechow's Mole-rats, the only mole-rat enclosure I have seen in a zoo which provides them with soil and other natural substrate to dig in, rather than providing them with pre-made glass tunnels.

Hippo Pavilion:

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@FunkyGibbon - something more of a lowlight is the Common Hippo enclosure. Very new, and very expensive, but it is clear that all the money went on the underwater viewing, as the barren concrete land area just isn't acceptable.

The paddocks surrounding the hippos have a selection of antelope in really nice enclosures: Eastern Bongo, Nile Lechwe, and the highlight, Mhorr Gazelle.

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@Bele - the undulating bongo paddock which, annoyingly, could quite easily be connected to the hippo enclosure through the big steel gate on the right, providing the hippos with grass, but this is supposedly never done.

African Savannah:

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@Chapman'szebra - for Giraffe, Grevy's Zebra, Black Sable, Blesbok, Kafue Lechwe, Scimitar-horned Oryx and Ostrich. One of the largest, best and most beautiful savannahs in an urban zoo, although in my opinion slightly inferior to (for example) Zürich.

In and around the African Pavilion (indoor area for the species on the savannah) are a few more species, such as Kirk's Dik-dik, Aardvark, Meerkat and Migratory Locust.

Dja Reserve:

One of Prague's newest exhibits, this is home to a family group of gorillas, as well as several other species. It has what is by far the largest and best indoor area for gorillas that I have ever seen, and a solid outdoor area with ample space and climbing (a tad sparse at the moment but that will hopefully improve over time). There are also several interesting smaller mammals, some tortoises and beetles within the building. It is a very large structure with enormous amounts of visitor space covered with interesting educational material and vegetation, which admittedly can feel wasted at times as there could have been more animal displays, but I for one was very fond of the natural, spacious, airy feel of the hall.

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@MagpieGoose - the enormous indoor viewing gallery for gorillas, who share with Kikuyu Guereza.

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@twilighter - the large and undulating outdoor enclosure for the gorillas and guerezas.

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@Chapman'szebra - the indoor area for Red River Hogs and De Brazza's Monkey.

There are also Gabon Talapoins in a mix with African Brush-tailed Porcupines, and Straw-coloured Fruit Bats in a mix with Gambian Pouched Rat, all four species being quite rare.

Across the Continents:

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@Baldur - Brown Hyena enclosure. I have no doubt that this very rare and very beautiful species will be a significant player in the tie, as will the pair of excellent enclosures in which they are held. Large, forested and undulating with a lot of decoration, secluded portions and offshow dens for privacy, but also with multiple viewing angles to boost the likelihood of visitors seeing them.

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@Robaque - Addax enclosure, really good in my opinion with complete grass coverage and shade offered by mature trees.

Rock Outcrop:

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@Kalaw - the Barbary Sheep and Macaque enclosure, one of the most spectacular zoo exhibits on the globe, providing these mountainous species with a near-vertical ledge. It speaks for itself as to why an enclosure such as this is so remarkable.

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@lintworm - the Ibis Aviary, which is predominantly African (although with a fair few Europeans). It's design isn't exactly ground-breaking, but it is large, with the cliff providing a scenic backdrop and a good area for the birds to roost. There is also plenty of long grass and vegetation for birds to hide from visitors should they choose to stay from the floor, and being in a walkthrough space with large pelecaniformes (Abdim's and Yellow-billed Storks) and raptors (Egyptian Vulture and Little Owl) is always a pleasure.

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@Kalaw - the famous Great Aviary, one of the best bird of prey aviaries around. Egyptian Vulture, Booted Eagle and Black Stork are all kept here, and for all three, Africa makes up a significant portion of their range. That said, the aviary is by no means an 'African' exhibit and the assortment is fairly miscellaneous.

Bird Wetlands:

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@Jana - a slight weakness for Prague in this category is this attractive meadow that is sadly wasted on pinioned waterfowl (mostly African). I would be surprised if the Tierpark doesn't have any pinioned birds of its own here, but happily proven wrong.

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@Jana - Prague's famous Waterfowl Pavilion has several aviaries attached to it, one of which, the Okavango Aviary, is a walkthrough for African birds. Really nicely designed, reasonably tall, and featuring such rarities as Squacco Heron, Hartlaub's Duck, Red-winged Starling and African Openbill.

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@vogelcommando - showing the two reasonably large and greenhouse-like indoor areas for Shoebills. Each indoor area comprises roughly half of the overall space, with a netted, outdoor portion at the back which is roughly the same size. Both are very densely planted, but unfortunately don't allow for prolonged flight. On my visit, I observed a very interesting form of enrichment, as one of the Shoebills was fishing in a bucket for live fish!

Feline and Reptile Pavilion:

The only African reptiles in this building are Gaboon Viper and Occelated Skink, neither of whom's enclosures are depicted in the gallery.

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@FunkyGibbon - an aerial view of the zoo's Cheetah complex, which encompasses the large hilly paddock in the centre, and I believe the two smaller ones behind. For the cheetahs, it is excellent (large, grass-covered with a lot of privacy), but for the visitors it does have one weakness, that being very limited viewing that only shows a small portion of the enclosure in front of the hill. Hence why an aerial view from the zoo's chairlift is the most revealing.

Méfou Centre:

The older of the zoo's two gorilla houses, this one now holds a bachelor group, and is in my opinion very good. The new Pavilion was constructed not because this one was outdated, but because of the zoo's desire to keep both a bachelor and family group, and this is obvious as the enclosure is by no means outdated.

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@FunkyGibbon - showing roughly half of the hilly and forested enclosure.

Giant Tortoise Pavilion:

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@vogelcommando - the Tortoise Nursery, a curious little exhibit where tortoise hatchlings from elsewhere in the zoo are raised together. Pancake Tortoise, Tunisian Spur-thighed Tortoise and Leopard Tortoise are the Africans here.

That's the 20 photo limit, but there are a couple more photos to come which I will be uploading shortly. :)
 
Water World and Monkey Islands:

Unfortunately, there are a couple more pinioned species to discuss. The first are Marabou Storks who have a really attractive, forested enclosure, and the second are Greater Flamingos who inhabit one of the many charming streams and moats that make up this exhibit. Something interesting to note is that in 2023 the Marabou Storks were used as foster parents to raise the Lesser Adjutant chick born at Zlin.

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@Kalaw - the excellent Sitatunga paddock, being one of only a few enclosures I know of for the species that provide them with a marsh-like habitat, featuring several streams, as opposed to a savannah. There moat is very wide and quite deep, encircling the entire perimeter, and branching off into a smaller moat at one end. The boardwalks provide visitors with excellent views.

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@Chapman'szebra - in the bird of prey portion of the Pheasantry lies this decent Hooded and Egyptian Vulture aviary.

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@vogelcommando - Pel's Fishing-owl aviary. Prague recently became the first public zoo in the world to breed this genus of owl, and they remain one of the zoo's most interesting rarities.

For both this and the nearby vulture aviary, I really appreciate the design. The use of wood for framing and the thin wire create and authenticity and make them much less obtrusive than some other aviaries for similar species.

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@Kalaw - Cape Fur Seal pool. One of the rarer pinniped species in Europe, and their pool is really good in my opinion, being among the largest and deepest that I have seen. I also like that the rocky outcrop at the back is layered with the seals able to climb to heights, even having a slide connecting the top of it to the pool. Not the best aesthetically (with the water a little green and the concrete quite brutal) but very good for the animals.

In summary, I really don't agree with the suggestion that this is a weak category for Prague. Brown Hyenas, Shoebills, Garnett's Greater Bushbaby, Pel's Fishing-owls and countless other of Prague's most interesting rarities belong to this category. There is one of the world's greatest zoo enclosures (the sheep and macaques on the cliff), an excellent savannah, numerous wonderful walkthrough aviaries, the sitatungas, the unique focus of 'Africa Up Close,' the gorillas and so much more. The hippos and the small mice terraria in AUC weigh it down slightly, but for me it is still truly excellent here.

Looking forward to hearing about what the opposition have to offer.
 
Looking forward to hearing more from the Tierpark's supporters here, though.

I mean, it doesn't even have to be the *supporters* of Tierpark Berlin who provide a breakdown of what it has to offer - I'm hoping someone does indeed do so, as it would be a pity if no one bothers whatsoever and the match ends up being another low-participation damp squib, and as previously noted I really don't want the task to default to me!

In summary, I really don't agree with the suggestion that this is a weak category for Prague.

"Weak" is definitely not the right word - but "weaker" is possibly closer to the mark, purely because even a relatively strong showing in a given category can be classified as such if other categories are even stronger. That said, this is definitely one of those matches where - whichever collection wins - a truly accurate score would ideally be as close to 50/50 as possible!
 
I mean, it doesn't even have to be the *supporters* of Tierpark Berlin who provide a breakdown of what it has to offer - I'm hoping someone does indeed do so, as it would be a pity if no one bothers whatsoever and the match ends up being another low-participation damp squib, and as previously noted I really don't want the task to default to me!
I will give it a go tomorrow basing it on my visit last summer if that is alright for Tierpark.
 
I have been somewhat quiet in these matches, but have been following this cup closely. I think now is the right time to make the matches as engaging as they once were, with these two giants in the Zoo world. I hope I am able to give enough info about the best that the Tierpark has to offer.

One can undeniably think of the future strengths that the Tierpark will have in a brand new African Elephant complex, new White Rhino station, new Pelican aviary. But seeing as they are not there yet I cannot use them in my explanation. I however believe that Berlin has more than enough right now to win the tie.

I suppose its only right I start with the heavy hitters.
African Ungulates:
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@Philipine eagle - This huge area finished last year and has become one of the best Savannah enclosures in the world. (about 1.2 hectares)
Species: Grévy Zebra, Beira Oryx, Eastern White-bearded Wildebeest, Thomson’s Gazelle and Red-necked Ostrich.

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@Philipine eagle - Why have one zebra, when you can have two. (about 0.3 hectares)
Species: Hartmann’s Mountain Zebra

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@Philipine eagle - A large and enriching habitat, renewed recently. (About 0.8 hectares) The house also contains a group of naked mole-rats.
Species: Rotschild’s Giraffe, Great White Pelican, Marabou, Naked Mole-rats

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@SivatheriumGuy - One of only two holder of the Giraffe-antilope. This area also includes a similar looking enclosures for an actual giraffe relative and also a relative newcomer
Species: Southern Gerenuk, Okapi, Lesser Kudu

Tierpark Berlin style paddocks (large enclosure with the green fencing)
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@Philipine eagle - Includes hoofstock from all habitats of Africa
Species: Mhorr Gazelle and Addax, Cape Buffalo, Southern Mountain Reedbuck, Red Buffalo, Red River Hog, Somali Wild Ass

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@SivatheriumGuy - One that might slip the eye at first glance, but one of the deer species does count for this category.
Species: Barbary Stag

Primates:

Another strong category, while it might not have a great ape like Prague, it does have some fantastic enclosure for their monkeys.
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@SivatheriumGuy - The monkey house has been renovated recently and is turning into a paradise for Madagascar lovers. With the new addition of one particular night lemur, it now has two of the rarest Lemurs in Europe.
Species: Aye-aye, Coquerel’s Sifaka

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@Philipine eagle - The house also houses a few other category relevant species, there is also a Ring-tailed lemur island near the Przewalski Horses, There is also a fantastic forest walktrough with lemurs, where they can access incredibly high trees and jump from one branch to another.
Species: Red-bellied Lemur and Giant Jumping Rat, Southern Springhare, Collared Lemur, Red Ruffed Lemur, Radiated Tortoise, Roloway Monkey, Ring-tailed Lemur, Black and White Ruffed Lemur, White Belted Black Lemur

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@snowleopard - The closest thing you can get to an ape (in size). This large enclosure contains a great troop of Geladas who can access two islands trough a tree bridge. There is also a group of Barbary Macaque near the Okapis
Species: Gelada, Barbary Macaque

Carnivores and others:
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@Philipine eagle - This enclosure next to the Alfred Brehm house has a very nice layout and contains a group of 3 male cheetahs.
Species: Sudan Cheetah

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@snowleopard - There are a few carnivore enclosures next to eachother that all follow the same theme in design.
Species: Arabian Striped Hyena, Spotted Hyena, Bat-eared Fox, East African Banded Mongoose
Other mammals in the park include: Central African Ratel, Gundi (behind the scenes), Black-and-Rufous Sengi (bts), Yellow Spotted Rock Hyrax (bts).

I believe that should cover the mammal side of things, I will do the rest of the animals next.
 

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I have thoroughly enjoyed making the mammal showcase which included some of the most famous inhabitants. What about the other classes?

Birds:
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@SivatheriumGuy - THE most famous aviary in the Tierpark and one that has definitely stood the test of time. This aviary houses 6 relevant species in a fantastic backdrop which functions as a nesting place.
Species: White-headed Vulture, Eurasian Griffon Vulture?, Common Rueppell’s Griffon Vulture, African White-backed Vulture, Bateleur Eagle, Eastern Grey-crowned Crane

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@SivatheriumGuy - next to it is a fantastic enclosure for Penguin who have access to two similar enclosures
Species: African Penguin

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@Philipine eagle - This large aviary contains a variety of exclusively African Birds. It is quite well planted and contains a nice pool of water. The gull aviary also counts, because of one species, which has a similarly looking aviary.
Species: Saddle-billed Stork, Yellow-billed Stork, Hamerkop, Abdul’s Stork, Hadada Ibis, Meller’s Duck, African Pochard, Red-billed Teal and African Grey-headed Gull

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@SivatheriumGuy - There are a few aviaries that are scattered around the park that also contain species relevant to the category
Species: Red-headed Vulture, Secretary Bird, Verreaux’s Eagle-owl, Western Black-crowned crane, Cape Eagle-owl, 3 or 4 species of ibis,..

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@LaughingDove - an example of an enclosure in the Pheasantry that contain relevant species.
Species: Grey Parrot, Madagascar Teal

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@SivatheriumGuy - Enclosure for Bustards
Species: Western Great Bustard

Summary:
I will not do a showcase for the reptiles, because they are mostly Asian, I do see Aldabra tortoise on zootierliste, but don’t know whether it is still on show (can someone confirm). I hope I have given everyone a better look at Tierpark’s offerings and may the best zoo win.
 

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Thanks for the excellent information and photos so far. A strong category for both! I am in a place where it could go either way. And recast my vote on a browse through.

I really like the apes and aviaries at Prague (and no one can rule out a Shoebill!) but I think Tierpark 3/2 at the moment for me based on some of the excellent exhibitry on show. Tthe lemur walkthrough looks excellent and they are often a highlight for me in any zoo trip and the Gerenuk are another exciting feature along with the Wildebeest. The vulture aviary, lovely.

Hot competition.
 
Primates:
Another strong category, while it might not have a great ape like Prague, it does have some fantastic enclosure for their monkeys.
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@SivatheriumGuy - The monkey house has been renovated recently and is turning into a paradise for Madagascar lovers. With the new addition of one particular night lemur, it now has two of the rarest Lemurs in Europe.
Species: Aye-aye, Coquerel’s Sifaka

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@Philipine eagle - The house also houses a few other category relevant species, there is also a Ring-tailed lemur island near the Przewalski Horses, There is also a fantastic forest walktrough with lemurs, where they can access incredibly high trees and jump from one branch to another.
Species: Red-bellied Lemur and Giant Jumping Rat, Southern Springhare, Collared Lemur, Red Ruffed Lemur, Radiated Tortoise, Roloway Monkey, Ring-tailed Lemur, Black and White Ruffed Lemur, White Belted Black Lemur
Tthe lemur walkthrough looks excellent and they are often a highlight for me in any zoo trip
Excellent overview, I forgot about the Gerenuk and they definitely could prove decisive, as could the vulture and dome aviaries which look astonishing.

However, do note that the aye-ayes, sifakas and other lemurs won't count here, as Madagascan fauna fall under 'Australia and Islands' rather than 'Africa' in cup threads. Therefore the Aldabra Giant Tortoises you describe also won't count regardless of whether they are still onshow.
 
Excellent overview, I forgot about the Gerenuk and they definitely could prove decisive, as could the vulture and dome aviaries which look astonishing.

However, do note that the aye-ayes, sifakas and other lemurs won't count here, as Madagascan fauna fall under 'Australia and Islands' rather than 'Africa' in cup threads. Therefore the Aldabra Giant Tortoises you describe also won't count regardless of whether they are still onshow.
Thanks, I totally forgot about that!
 
Good to know re the lemurs (I'd also forgotten they were Islands), though the aviaries have held quite a lot of sway for me, that walkthrough looks great. I had thought we counted them in other matches Africa wise (so they count twice?).

I was a little surprised to see the 5/0 vote for Prague as I thought things more balanced in terms of offer at Berlin and would argue the exhibits highlighted by @Père Damian's Deer are quite persuasive in terms of garnering at least some points, if not the win. Even if you didn't like vultures I don't think you could easily dismiss that aviary alone, for example.

@Kalaw has done a great job too in showcasing the best bits of Prague in this category and ensured this is a hard choice!

But I'd like to hear the argument for 5/0 to see what I have missed going the other way.
 
Not true, these do count towards Africa.
Have searched through some old threads and realised you're correct. I didn't realise it counted towards both and knew for a fact it had been involved in 'islands' threads in the past.

Please ignore my previous post entirely then and sorry for misleading anyone! :p

In that case, it is worth noting that Prague has a fair few lemurs of its own, although frustratingly there are very few photos of their enclosures in the gallery.

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@Maguari - the main lemur walkthrough which currently only houses Ring-taileds. This depicts a very small portion of it as the whole area is quite large and extends to the other side of the pathway seen at the back of this image. It also demonstrates the rather interesting exterior design of the indoor area which is glass-walled on all sides.

Rather frustratingly, I can't find images of the other two, neither on the gallery nor in my own personal photos from my visit. But there is a tall aviary-like enclosure in the outdoor portion of Africa Up Close that is very densely planted, holding White-fronteds and Ring-taileds. There is also a nice island for Black-and-white Ruffed Lemurs opposite the giant tortoises. If anyone reading this happens to have their own photos of either of these enclosures then please do provide them.

Not quite Aye-aye and sifaka level (perhaps it would be where the Ganzhorn's and Goodman's Mouse-lemurs still onshow, but alas they are not), but still worth considering.
 
Have searched through some old threads and realised you're correct. I didn't realise it counted towards both and knew for a fact it had been involved in 'islands' threads in the past.

Please ignore my previous post entirely then and sorry for misleading anyone! :p

In that case, it is worth noting that Prague has a fair few lemurs of its own, although frustratingly there are very few photos of their enclosures in the gallery.

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@Maguari - the main lemur walkthrough which currently only houses Ring-taileds. This depicts a very small portion of it as the whole area is quite large and extends to the other side of the pathway seen at the back of this image. It also demonstrates the rather interesting exterior design of the indoor area which is glass-walled on all sides.

Rather frustratingly, I can't find images of the other two, neither on the gallery nor in my own personal photos from my visit. But there is a tall aviary-like enclosure in the outdoor portion of Africa Up Close that is very densely planted, holding White-fronteds and Ring-taileds. There is also a nice island for Black-and-white Ruffed Lemurs opposite the giant tortoises. If anyone reading this happens to have their own photos of either of these enclosures then please do provide them.

Not quite Aye-aye and sifaka level (perhaps it would be where the Ganzhorn's and Goodman's Mouse-lemurs still onshow, but alas they are not), but still worth considering.

That's a really interesting design for that lemur space! Thoughtful for when the weather is colder but the sun is out - must be fun for them sunbathing at the windows as well as offering good views. Something to do a bit more thinking about on the forest walkthrough vs an external view but with good vistas space. Leaning more to the walkthrough but that design is a real stand out. Clever. One of the things of note for both collections in this category is the really well constructed viewing in the photos that have been shared.
 
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