Have You Met People Who Disliked or Opposed Zoos?

[The Horse Boy]

Whilst I can sympathize with guys who may find seeing animals enclosed in zoos depressing, as again it oftentimes comes from a valid place of compassion for them and wanting them to be happy, I think one problem with people who think negatively about these facilities is that they tend to anthromophize wild animals- i.e project human thoughts feeling and behaviors onto them. Most wild animals to my knowledge don't really have the same type of cognition the way humans do, with some exceptions of course like elephants cetateans and chimps.

 

[Mr. Bobcat]

Whilst I can sympathize with guys who may find seeing animals enclosed in zoos depressing, as again it oftentimes comes from a valid place of compassion for them and wanting them to be happy, I think one problem with people who think negatively about these facilities is that they tend to anthromophize wild animals- i.e project human thoughts feeling and behaviors onto them. Most wild animals to my knowledge don't really have the same type of cognition the way humans do, with some exceptions of course like elephants cetateans and chimps.

Yes, I agree, especially animals that have been born in a zoo.

Unfortunately, humanity has difficulty in making room for nature or is indifferent to it.
Zoos provide at least a chance to keep species around for the future possibility of reintroduction to the wild.
But equally important is the role they play as showing people how wonderful and spectacular wildlife is and what we would be losing if things don't change.

 

[Mr. Bobcat]

A handful over the years, including a teacher who confusingly enough said she liked aquariums (including those with dolphins and such) but hated zoos. When I asked her how this wasn’t contradictory, she said it was because animals in zoos could tell that they were confined, but ones in aquariums somehow couldn’t. Part of her dislike came from the visitor side of things though, as she associated going to the zoo with hot, crowded summer days that could be kind of miserable to be there on.

Is your teacher Dr. Doolittle?
Does she talk to the animals?

To those people, I always ask this, do you own any pets, fish, birds, reptiles?
Are they not confined?
Are they not there for personal pleasure and "voyeurism "?
And I could bet that the most of the zoos or wildlife parks take better care of their animals than the average individual.
Then I ask, if you are so concerned, what do you do to help?
Nine out of ten times they say nothing or say "what can I do, I'm only ones person ".
But if you keep adding up the ones you can exponentially reach a high number.
I think I've been saying too much, sorry y'all.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Another example recently popped up in my head, and it was only about 2 years ago during my 2nd fall semester at special needs workforce prep program known as STEPS at one of the campuses at Austin Community College. I had female teacher in her mid 20's for the only two classes I took that semester, and we going over some lecture in my workplace communications class I undertook in the mornings. I can't remember exactly how it happened, but we started talking about the fact chimps dolphins and elephants are the few mammals that able to recognize themselves when looking into a mirror emphasizing their strong intellect. I brought up the fact that cetateans are so heavily denounced in captivity with their small unnatural tank and social setups and their human like intelligence and self awareness. Then she gave a pretty self conflicting argument about how she at least objects to seeing cetateans elephants and great apes in zoos because in her eyes they're smart enough to know they're trapped in an enclosed space and might feel depression because of that. However, she didn't seem full blown anti, bc I asked if she liked zoos, and she enthusiastically said she loves them, and grew up near the Houston and Ellen Trout zoos. So i find it quite outlandish that she was still pretty critical of zoos, esp very clever animals in captivity. She said something like animals aren't meant to be in certain spaces for human entertainment, which is true. But modern good zoos of course have moved way past that now, and prioritize in conservation welfare and research instead, which i rightfully pointed out as my answer. She then acknowledged that it is nice they somehow function as sanctuaries for endangered species, but i guess she more associated them with human amusement more. It frankly upsets me to see some Gen Y to Zish people be critical of zoos when they obviously were starting to make big improvements around these time periods. I have nothing against great apes and elephants in zoos if the enclosures are aptly sized and enriching for their well being and are designed to manage proper groupings similar to the wild. But I told her i love seeing these two mammals in zoos for those factors, and she gave in saying that different people are entitled their individual mindsets. But yeah, kinda strange and conflicting you ask me.

 

[The Horse Boy]

There is also another negative sign that can factor into a person having a negative outlook or emotions over zoos and being critical of them, and it has happened with my direct experience a couple times: a long number of years ago it was when someone (such as an adult) last visited a zoo, visiting a small number of times, and just their overall experience that could be based on a specific sight, such as an atrociously small esp unnatrulaistic looking pen or an animal showing signs of stress such as rocking and pacing back and forth repeatedly. Because of this, if you ,say, suggest an outing involving a trip to the zoo, they'll tell you their negative sentiment.

 

[evilmonkey239]

There is also another negative sign that can factor into a person having a negative outlook or emotions over zoos and being critical of them, and it has happened with my direct experience a couple times: a long number of years ago it was when someone (such as an adult) last visited a zoo, visiting a small number of times, and just their overall experience that could be based on a specific sight, such as an atrociously small esp unnatrulaistic looking pen or an animal showing signs of stress such as rocking and pacing back and forth repeatedly. Because of this, if you ,say, suggest an outing involving a trip to the zoo, they'll tell you their negative sentiment.

I think this is especially true if they had a somewhat low opinion of zoos in general beforehand, as something like a poor enclosure or an animal displaying stereotypic behavior would serve to validate their biases.

 

[The Horse Boy]

I think this is especially true if they had a somewhat low opinion of zoos in general beforehand, as something like a poor enclosure or an animal displaying stereotypic behavior would serve to validate their biases.

And no matter how each individual generally views zoos, we are all unified in saying junk as lackluster enclosures, improper groupings like social species being lonley or housed in unrelated pairs, stereotypical behaviors and such is abominable. That's facts. But I think how the flaw often manifests itself with people being saddened by zoos and captive wildlife is their idea is that the animals are confined in a cage or pen against their will, tho it's obviously not the case in modern times in the experience of we zoo-thusiasts. Frustratingly, some people just generalize that all animals in zoo enclosures are nothing but unhappy and unhealthy.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Have any of you guys even suggested a zoo trip to someone, then they told you they don't want to go because of them opposing or the ideas of zoos making them sad just like have a couple of times?

 

[evilmonkey239]

Have any of you guys even suggested a zoo trip to someone, then they told you they don't want to go because of them opposing or the ideas of zoos making them sad just like have a couple of times?

Honestly no, because I don’t really have many friends and of the few I do have, most either definitely aren’t anti-zoo or likely just wouldn’t be interested in visiting one. I’ve got maybe one friend who might be uninterested in visiting a zoo for ethical reasons, and as such I wouldn’t even suggest such an outing to them.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Honestly no, because I don’t really have many friends and of the few I do have, most either definitely aren’t anti-zoo or likely just wouldn’t be interested in visiting one. I’ve got maybe one friend who might be uninterested in visiting a zoo for ethical reasons, and as such I wouldn’t even suggest such an outing to them.

An example on my end would be when i briefly had a step dad at 16, and whenever I broached a zoo conversation, he'd tell me that zoos (even top notch ones frustratingly) made him sad- again, the usual phrase people with that outlook would say upon that topic in my experience- and since he had a brother living in Houston, he suggested doing an overnight road trip down there one day that summer of the year of his short lived relationship with my mom. I then bounced around the idea of doing a trip to the Houston Zoo (a very amazing facility nowadays) and hence he told me he felt too dismayed to visit. That shows that oftentimes people who do have negative opinions and feelings over the issue are emotionally deterred from visiting such places as a result. That's why I thought I'd ask

 

[The Horse Boy]

Isn't it true that one of the big reasons why zoos might upset some people and these guys might insist they're better off in their homes in the wild would be that they often have a romanticized notion of the wild being a happy free beautiful and peaceful place where the animals can go wherever they desire and behavior however they wish, that evey animal in the wild is very happy but every zoo animal is bored and sad? The wild can be a harsh and dangerous place as a matter of fact with animals getting eaten or killed by human activity. Wild animals also do not primarily roam miles and miles for leisure: they do it more as a must in order to find safety resources such as abundant food water and shelter and a suitable mate, which is much much easier to get in captivity. These people might not even recognize that some animals might actually be quite unhappy in the wild, and zoos can actually be more safer and peaceful places. I've lately browsed many reddit and quora threads all about the intent to dispel these kinds of thoughts.

 

[Batto]

that they often have a romanticized notion of the wild being a happy free beautiful and peaceful place where the animals can go wherever they desire and behavior however they wish, that evey animal in the wild is very happy but every zoo animal is bored and sad?

An all too romanticised view of both animals and the wild, which you might consider as zoological "Disneyfication", is indeed a prevailing attitude among mostly urbanized Western societies. Which tends to change dramatically and quickly when the cuddly cow at Yellowstone NP starts to charge at ya...

 

[evilmonkey239]

Anti-zoo views tend to be influenced by very black and white schools of thought, I feel. Most people holding such perspectives seem to feel that if animals are held in enclosures, it must automatically be bad, regardless of the purpose. This tends to be true whether this person is an everyday joe or a well-established animal rights activist. If they happen to be the latter, they’ll tell you that no matter what the keepers (or “prison guards”, as they may see them) tell you, if your first instinct is that animals in cages is bad, it is correct and that there is no need for further, critical thinking. They believe that if something seems so clear cut, so intuitively true to them, that it must be objective reality. Trying to convince them otherwise is like asking a religious person to stop believing in god.


What I have learned from the last three years of interacting with anti-zoo people online is that animal rights activists are not necessarily conservationists. I’ve had more than one admit to me that they would rather have a species go completely extinct than continue to exist only in captivity, even if the latter would mean it could theoretically be returned to the wild eventually. You think that loving animals (or at least thinking you do) would go hand in hand with supporting the conservation efforts of zoos, but as it turns out, that is not always the case.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Even though I still worry about the popularity of zoos in the US, i'm glad America seems to not have a growing dislike opposition or sadness by visitors despite some having these feelings. I'm sure it isn't the only country with visitors who feel that way towards zoos. That country has many many reputable facilities of course. I feel most Americans would be more than happy to visit a zoo as well as western Europeans and Brits.

 

[Jurek7]

animal rights activists are not necessarily conservationists

I discovered the same.

I tried to interest several anti-zoo activists and vegetarians in protection of animals in the wild. They were not interested any more than an average person. That one 'pities' a 'sad' elephant in a zoo does not mean he has much interest in helping 1000 of elephants which are being killed by poachers.

Vegetarians and vegans I know were also not much interested in other uses of domestic animals, for example leather shoes or clothes. I felt that vegetarianism is a type of mild eating disorder and a result of a mild nervous trauma, more than the result of especially deep compassion or care about animals.

Anti-zoo people generally don't know much about zoos or animals, and project their own feelings or thoughts on animals. I avoid talking to such people about instincts or population management, unless I think they already met these topics. It was best to talk to them in terms of what they know about animals.

One thing which worked well is explaining that wild animals are similar to domestic animals, because even laymen generally know dogs, horses or chicken and their behavior and intelligence.

You can say that a killer whale is much like a big dog, an elephant is much like a horse, an eagle is much like a pigeon, that is they are completely happy with good food, water, some company and some space to move around, but have no dreams of abstract freedom etc. And a wild animal is certainly not happy to roam huge territory looking for food and water. Completely opposite to human hikers. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Lafone]

I discovered the same.

I tried to interest several anti-zoo activists and vegetarians in protection of animals in the wild. They were not interested any more than an average person. That one 'pities' a 'sad' elephant in a zoo does not mean he has much interest in helping 1000 of elephants which are being killed by poachers.

Vegetarians and vegans I know were also not much interested in other uses of domestic animals, for example leather shoes or clothes. I felt that vegetarianism is a type of mild eating disorder and a result of a mild nervous trauma, more than the result of especially deep compassion or care about animals.

Anti-zoo people generally don't know much about zoos or animals, and project their own feelings or thoughts on animals. I avoid talking to such people about instincts or population management, unless I think they already met these topics. It was best to talk to them in terms of what they know about animals.

One thing which worked well is explaining that wild animals are similar to domestic animals, because even laymen generally know dogs, horses or chicken and their behavior and intelligence.

You can say that a killer whale is much like a big dog, an elephant is much like a horse, an eagle is much like a pigeon, that is they are completely happy with good food, water, some company and some space to move around, but have no dreams of abstract freedom etc. And a wild animal is certainly not happy to roam huge territory looking for food and water. Completely opposite to human hikers. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

As a vegetarian, I will simply say I don't have a 'mild eating disorder' or 'mild nervous trauma', you really do come out with some utterly nonsensical stuff.

I think you should be really careful not to trivialise eating disorders however, in jest or otherwise. They are a serious condition for people who do have them. Perhaps be a bit more thoughtful in what you post.

It's amusing to watch people who like a thing (in this case, zoos) rationalise other's dislike of them by suggesting they are bonkers, contradictory or just uneducated. Imagine how offended you would be if someone said you liked zoos because you were those things.

 

[evilmonkey239]

As a vegetarian, I will simply say I don't have a 'mild eating disorder' or 'mild nervous trauma', you really do come out with some utterly nonsensical stuff.

I think you should be really careful not to trivialise eating disorders however, in jest or otherwise. They are a serious condition for people who do have them. Perhaps be a bit more thoughtful in what you post.

It's amusing to watch people who like a thing (in this case, zoos) rationalise other's dislike of them by suggesting they are bonkers, contradictory or just uneducated. Imagine how offended you would be if someone said you liked zoos because you were those things.

As someone who follows a fully plant-based/vegan diet (primarily due to environmental concerns caused by my love of wildlife, mind you) I second this.

 

[The Horse Boy]

As someone who follows a fully plant-based/vegan diet (primarily due to environmental concerns caused by my love of wildlife, mind you) I second this.

I sometimes see that not all vegetarians/vegans have contempt against modern zoos. My mom who greatly understands their benefits is what you call a pescatarian, and she's been that way for 40 years now. I feel ARAs tend to associate vegetarians and vegans with being dissuade by zoos.

 

[Aardwolf]

While I am not one myself (though I don't eat that much meat), I'd also like to point out that a fairly large percentage of keepers and other zoo employees are vegetarian or vegan, probably a greater proportion than the general public.

A few thoughts on folks who are opposed to zoos, the motivations of which are highly varied, and should not be seen as a monolith:

1.) Some are just lazy, want to feel like they're helping animals, but don't want to actually expend any time/effort/money. Regardless of what you feel about SeaWorld and the welfare of captive orcas, for example, it's an indisputable fact that SeaWorld has no negative impact on wild orca numbers. They aren't taking animals from the wild, and even when they were, it wasn't in any appreciable numbers. Still, people can tell themselves that by NOT going to SeaWorld (and let's be honest, most of the people who jumped on the Blackfish bandwagon weren't going there anyway), they're making a positive difference to help whales. Substitute zoos/elephants and you get the same feeling. Sure, you may buy a shopping-cart full of palm oil products, then drive home to your house in a gas-guzzling car, and make several other decisions which negatively impact animals in the wild, but you're helping animals by not going to the zoo.

2.) Some of the most stringent animal rights folks I've met have been folks who have been exposed to the worst-case scenarios of animal abuse and neglect, such as working in high volume shelters, where abused, confiscated, and mistreated animals far outnumber the happy, healthy ones. It's easy to take a dim view of human ownership of animals in such a setting, and can easily lead people, subjected to so much misery and death, to prefer a world without captive animals to one in which so many are treated so poorly

3.) There are fair philosophical discussions that can be had between the benefits of zoo conservation and a large scale and the well-being of individual animals. A person who prefers the personal liberty and autonomy of an individual animal to the overall well-being of a captive population has different priorities - priorities that I disagree with in some cases - but they aren't inherently wrong or misguided for thinking and feeling the way that they do.

4.) Zoo folks are not a monopoly. I've worked with plenty of keepers who work with some species, but are opposed to the keeping of others. I've known plenty of keepers who would happily see a world with no elephants or cetaceans in zoos (which we don't mention too often, because elephant keepers can be an intense, rowdy bunch... on zoo director I know who played devil's advocate with a group of them at a conference barely escaped with his life...). And going on that, it's normal for zookeepers to have doubts themselves. I know I have. I've worked in some sorry little zoos with some bad management, but even at the AZA zoos I've worked at, there have been times I've had doubts about whether we're really doing an adequate job. There's been more than one animal that I've worked with to whom the last words I've ever said have been, "I'm sorry, you deserved better from us." (Ironically, this is why I feel like animal rights folks make bad animal keepers - if you convince yourself that all captivity is inherently bad and a cage is always a cage, it's very hard to strive to do better, because you're convinced on some level that it's all equally horrid. I'm just as exasperated by the keepers I know who are convinced that they know everything and can do no wrong).

As a final thought (and one I've posted elsewhere on ZC), a very small percentage of the public are actually strongly anti-zoo (though we tend to pay the most attention to them). An equally small number are obsessive zoo fans. The vast majority of people are fair-weather friends, with us in the good times, against us in the bad, than swaying back. Look at the enormous vacillation in public sentiment aimed at Cincinnati between Harambe's death (May 2016) and Fiona's birth (January 2017). The trick seems to be staying on the good side.

 

[evilmonkey239]

I sometimes see that not all vegetarians/vegans have contempt against modern zoos. My mom who greatly understands their benefits is what you call a pescatarian, and she's been that way for 40 years now. I feel ARAs tend to associate vegetarians and vegans with being dissuade by zoos.

Yes. Most outspoken animal rights nowadays, at least in places like the US and UK, are specifically vegan. Veganism in particular, is seen by most of the general population as a diet, but to ARA vegans (think the kind of people who have “vegan” in their Twitter bio or people who make YouTube channels about being vegan), it is more than that; it is a movement. Specifically one to advance the cause of animal rights. In addition to not consuming or wearing animal-based products, core beliefs held by most such activists include:

• Riding horses or other animals is immoral.
  
• Efforts to remove invasive species are morally wrong because it violates the personal liberties of animals belonging to said invasive species.
• Animals are not for entertainment. This includes all forms of keeping animals in a place that people can come look at, including circuses, marine parks, and zoos. Building onto that last one…
  • There is never a justification for keeping animals in zoos. Any conservation benefits are cancelled out by the immorality of keeping animals in confined spaces that people can come look at. Sanctuaries are the ethical alternative.

So yes, being a passionate vegan and being an animal rights activist tends to go hand-in-hand. And as mentioned above, one of the main tenets of that belief system is all forms of wild animal captivity besides sanctuaries are immoral. So, if you do, say support accredited zoos, you’re not a “real vegan” even if you support most other areas of the animal rights movement. Being a vegan (or a vegetarian) and being opposed to all zoos do not inherently go together, but you better believe many ARAs want you to think that they do.