General Import Discussion

[Zoofan15]

The issue with a lot of our ungulates, we imported a lot of good species. Then the doors shut for a very long time. Most species that were imported were done in the era where every zoo was for themselves, which we still see a bit of. Then genetics became a problem and a lot of them were left to die out, while they have inbred to a high degree others to maintain the small diversity we have. No the doors are open again. Our main zoos with the largest amount of money are only interested in squeezing money out from building money generating projects, as the zoos are run by corporate and not animal based people. These are the people that won't spend money on importing Thompson gazelle because Indian antelope look similar and can work as a stand in on the savannah. Until this mentality changes, we won't see any majour progress. Not until they start prioritising species again. Then we may see an uptick in imports. For now it's the private players who are catching up and setting up zoos that now even rival the big zoo's, and they are doing the heavy import lifting with a fraction of a budget.

The decrease in diversity of species held across our region’s zoos is a notable trend. 100 years ago, zoos could readily import a plethora of species from the wild via animal dealers. Some of these thrived in capacity, some of them didn’t.

Long before the era of coordinated breeding programmes, zoos identified animal exchange and breeding as a cost effective alternative to purchasing animals. There’s countless records of the prices hippopotamus calves could be expected to fetch overseas; as well as exchanges between countries.

While zoos operated independently of each other; as a consequence of the above, there were still a degree of homogeneity across the collections as species that bred in sustainable numbers were exchanged and populated multiple zoos across the region. Chacma baboon and Barbary sheep are both excellent examples of this within a historical context. This trend only strengthened once taking animals from the wild became prohibited and zoos became reliant on captive breeding/animal exchange.

Ultimately, Australasia has a small number of facilities compared to other regions and is geographically isolated. We can expect homogeneity of species to reign supreme as it’s productive in every sense to hold species that can be managed in sustainable populations. Exceptions will exist (Indian rhinoceros are an obvious example), but they’ll be few and far between.

 

[Zorro]

The decrease in diversity of species held across our region’s zoos is a notable trend. 100 years ago, zoos could readily import a plethora of species from the wild via animal dealers. Some of these thrived in capacity, some of them didn’t.

Long before the era of coordinated breeding programmes, zoos identified animal exchange and breeding as a cost effective alternative to purchasing animals. There’s countless records of the prices hippopotamus calves could be expected to fetch overseas; as well as exchanges between countries.

While zoos operated independently of each other; as a consequence of the above, there were still a degree of homogeneity across the collections as species that bred in sustainable numbers were exchanged and populated multiple zoos across the region. Chacma baboon and Barbary sheep are both excellent examples of this within a historical context. This trend only strengthened once taking animals from the wild became prohibited and zoos became reliant on captive breeding/animal exchange.

Ultimately, Australasia has a small number of facilities compared to other regions and is geographically isolated. We can expect homogeneity of species to reign supreme as it’s productive in every sense to hold species that can be managed in sustainable populations. Exceptions will exist (Indian rhinoceros are an obvious example), but they’ll be few and far between.

There are species like the Persian Onager that after two lots of imports from both the USA and Europe could of been managed far into the future if they really wanted to they were always available to import if another bloodline was wanted but sometimes it comes down to the current Director if they "like" them or not, this was a big loss and unnecessary, it was a grass based diet and an endangered species but now gone after all the work that was put in to bring them in a set up a breeding program, they could have even offered them to any of the smaller regional zoos but as far as I am aware never happened!

 

[JM01]

It would be cool if insectivores appeared in our zoos in the future. Like hedgehogs, moles and shrews. Or even more mustelids like skunks or badgers.

 

[JessKimber]

Taronga Zoo frustrates me with their decisions to reduce species. They feel like they’re moving backwards: less a zoo and more a wildlife park, dedicated to native species and backyard/petting zoo animals.

Even the number of native species held has been massively reduced. Every time they renovate a section it reopens with a fraction of the prior species held.

I’d love to see them take advantage of the imports to bring in additional bongos, or new species like okapi (perpetually teased). I miss them having snow leopards, dholes, Malayan tapir, tahr, clouded leopards, even macaws and currasows and Victoria crowned pigeons. Walking around now there’s so much empty space that used to be vibrant and exciting and so much more focused on global conservation.

Surely it wouldn’t break the bank to at least install some additional aviaries in these empty areas (and not just another jungle fowl coop, please!).

 

[Zorro]

Taronga Zoo frustrates me with their decisions to reduce species. They feel like they’re moving backwards: less a zoo and more a wildlife park, dedicated to native species and backyard/petting zoo animals.

Even the number of native species held has been massively reduced. Every time they renovate a section it reopens with a fraction of the prior species held.

I’d love to see them take advantage of the imports to bring in additional bongos, or new species like okapi (perpetually teased). I miss them having snow leopards, dholes, Malayan tapir, tahr, clouded leopards, even macaws and currasows and Victoria crowned pigeons. Walking around now there’s so much empty space that used to be vibrant and exciting and so much more focused on global conservation.

Surely it wouldn’t break the bank to at least install some additional aviaries in these empty areas (and not just another jungle fowl coop, please!).

Your not alone with your views I have followed their collection since the 1970s and yes it keeps shrinking all the time, I seem to recall the words of "Less" is "More" being mentioned

 

[Zoofan15]

Taronga Zoo frustrates me with their decisions to reduce species. They feel like they’re moving backwards: less a zoo and more a wildlife park, dedicated to native species and backyard/petting zoo animals.

Even the number of native species held has been massively reduced. Every time they renovate a section it reopens with a fraction of the prior species held.

I’d love to see them take advantage of the imports to bring in additional bongos, or new species like okapi (perpetually teased). I miss them having snow leopards, dholes, Malayan tapir, tahr, clouded leopards, even macaws and currasows and Victoria crowned pigeons. Walking around now there’s so much empty space that used to be vibrant and exciting and so much more focused on global conservation.

Surely it wouldn’t break the bank to at least install some additional aviaries in these empty areas (and not just another jungle fowl coop, please!).

Your not alone with your views I have followed their collection since the 1970s and yes it keeps shrinking all the time, I seem to recall the words of "Less" is "More" being mentioned

I’ve observed the same trend at a number of the region’s main zoos (Auckland, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth). The usual reason given is animal welfare (more space is given to fewer species). In some instances the exhibits demolished have been outdated, bordering on archaic (Adelaide’s lion cages being a prime example); but in other instances, the expansion has appeared less necessary. I don’t see any justification for expanding Auckland’s savannah for example.

Like many of you, I’m not in favour of these changes when they come at the expense of exotic species that are either phased out on mass or due to something common (yet popular with the public taking preference). Adelaide not building a gorilla complex to give the giraffe a bigger exhibit being an example.

 

[Tiger91]

Your not alone with your views I have followed their collection since the 1970s and yes it keeps shrinking all the time, I seem to recall the words of "Less" is "More" being mentioned

But, but what about the more space per species concept!

I.e what can we shrink down and turn into a comercial selling point. How many lawns and cafe's does the zoo need.

Sydney zoo is a much better bang for you buck, i hope they get approval to expand down the track so they can really give taronga a run for there money, which they essentially are doing now.

 

[Zorro]

But, but what about the more space per species concept!

I.e what can we shrink down and turn into a comercial selling point. How many lawns and cafe's does the zoo need.

Sydney zoo is a much better bang for you buck, i hope they get approval to expand down the track so they can really give taronga a run for there money, which they essentially are doing now.

I guess these things highlight the difference between the government run zoos and the private zoos one can operate without worrying about attracting the public to much and the other that wants to try and attract as much of the public as possible

 

[Tiger91]

I guess these things highlight the difference between the government run zoos and the private zoos one can operate without worrying about attracting the public to much and the other that wants to try and attract as much of the public as possible

It will be interesting to see how Taronga is faring, I dont know many people going to it anymore. Most of my friends that are not zoo nerds are going to Sydney zoo because it has a better collection. Taronga is loosing a lot of its domestic visitation from hearing people talk locally. it would be interesting to see if this is being reflected in visitor numbers and how they will try to fix it. There is a point where if numbers get to low they will make changes.

The only way we will see Taronga fix itself is if the visitor numbers drop. Then one can expect new species to be brought it to try and bring people back. Especially now they have given up on elephants and breeding gorillas. They are in the same situation as Melbourne, even Hari won't be a crowed puller to equal those.

 

[Zorro]

It will be interesting to see how Taronga is faring, I dont know many people going to it anymore. Most of my friends that are not zoo nerds are going to Sydney zoo because it has a better collection. Taronga is loosing a lot of its domestic visitation from hearing people talk locally. it would be interesting to see if this is being reflected in visitor numbers and how they will try to fix it. There is a point where if numbers get to low they will make changes.

The only way we will see Taronga fix itself is if the visitor numbers drop. Then one can expect new species to be brought it to try and bring people back. Especially now they have given up on elephants and breeding gorillas. They are in the same situation as Melbourne, even Hari won't be a crowed puller to equal those.

They may not even care that much at the end of the day they all get a wage and the government money keeps coming unlike the private zoos

 

[Zoofan15]

Yes, the good news is they are a more easily imported species. They are numerous in zoo's there doesn't seem to be the import restrictions like some other species have. Which means zoos can hinge of Dubbo's females while importing new males to breed to them for genetics.

Re. Spider monkeys:

Yes, Auckland operated that way for decades before they ceased breeding with the death of their breeding male a few years ago. They’ve held spider monkeys for decades and followed the initials naming convention, with their J, B and H lines well represented across the region. They retained females within their natal troop and imported males every decade or so - mostly from
the United Stated and Canada.

 

[Steve Robinson]

But, but what about the more space per species concept!

The concept is actually "more specimens per species".

Eventually, of course, this would result in the need for more space per species.

 

[MRJ]

As Steve says, when zoos refer to the number of spaces they have for a species this refers to the maximum number of individual animals of that species they can and want to hold. Many factors go into that decision, including of course the literal space available.

One of the factors ZAA uses in deciding whether a species can be managed is the aggregate number of spaces for that species across the country.

 

[Tiger91]

The concept is actually "more specimens per species".

Eventually, of course, this would result in the need for more space per species.

It seems in a few news articles and such over the years the idea of more space for animal welfare grounds is thrown around. Like with there 'savannah' at Taronga, which didn't actually add all that much space.

 

[Tiger91]

They may not even care that much at the end of the day they all get a wage and the government money keeps coming unlike the private zoos

Ironically the reason we have less species and less space for species is because of creating revenue. When that falls, due to visitation rates dropping. I actually think we will see them act.

 

[Zorro]

Ironically the reason we have less species and less space for species is because of creating revenue. When that falls, due to visitation rates dropping. I actually think we will see them act.

At the end of the day I believe it mostly comes down to who is the Director at the time one good example was the late great John Kelly of Taronga zoo under his leadership we saw a whole Gorilla troop of ten imported from Holland and a large group of wild caught Black rhinos imported from Africa. Unlike the short sightedness of the Thai elephant import of cramping them up in a city zoo at great cost only to relocate them again at cost to Dubbo to give then the room they needed in the first place.

 

[Zoofan15]

At the end of the day I believe it mostly comes down to who is the Director at the time one good example was the late great John Kelly of Taronga zoo under his leadership we saw a whole Gorilla troop of ten imported from Holland and a large group of wild caught Black rhinos imported from Africa. Unlike the short sightedness of the Thai elephant import of cramping them up in a city zoo at great cost only to relocate them again at cost to Dubbo to give then the room they needed in the first place.

John Kelly did great things for Taronga Zoo. Orangutan Rainforest opened in 1994; Serpentaria opened in 1995; Eastern bongo were imported in 1996; and following the import of the gorillas you mentioned, Gorilla Rainforest opened in 1997.

Following on from the loan of the Giant pandas in 1988; the import of the black rhinoceros in 1992; and the continuation of the Sumatran tiger breeding programme (acquisition of new tigress in 1992; attempts to import from Indonesia and expansion to Dubbo), it was truly a golden age for Taronga.

 

[Younesmark]

Taronga Zoo frustrates me with their decisions to reduce species. They feel like they’re moving backwards: less a zoo and more a wildlife park, dedicated to native species and backyard/petting zoo animals.

Even the number of native species held has been massively reduced. Every time they renovate a section it reopens with a fraction of the prior species held.

I’d love to see them take advantage of the imports to bring in additional bongos, or new species like okapi (perpetually teased). I miss them having snow leopards, dholes, Malayan tapir, tahr, clouded leopards, even macaws and currasows and Victoria crowned pigeons. Walking around now there’s so much empty space that used to be vibrant and exciting and so much more focused on global conservation.

Surely it wouldn’t break the bank to at least install some additional aviaries in these empty areas (and not just another jungle fowl coop, please!).

THISSSSSS

and let’s not forget servals , jaguars , rhino , hippo , Barbary sheep and bears too !

 

[Younesmark]

At this rate , I wouldn’t be surprised if Taronga is gonna phase out every single exotic species and be left with Australian natives , domestics and free ranging bush turkeys and water dragons .

 

[Zoofan15]

THISSSSSS

and let’s not forget servals , jaguars , rhino , hippo , Barbary sheep and bears too !

I can understand the rationale behind phasing out large hoof stock from city zoos, but the decision to phase out Snow leopards from Taronga was particularly baffling.

The diversity in felids (especially small felids) has decreased drastically over the past 30 years. Siberian tiger, Jaguar, Puma, Persian leopard, Indian leopard (including melanistic variants), Temminck’s golden cat, Ocelot, Leopard cat and Bobcat are now all gone from the region; and Fishing cat is hanging on by a thread.

Only desexed Puma can be imported into Australia, so there’s no possibility of building up a sustainable population of this species in the future; and others such as Temminck’s golden cat are near unobtainable. Small felids have been particularly vulnerable to phase out. They breed well under the right conditions, but many zoos seem to lack the motivation to keep a species that requires off display housing in order to achieve this.