North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I'm sure he was a candidate for being Winnie's sire a few years back, but I may be remembering wrong (that could have just been speculation on here).

I could've sworn it was stated to be a Denver bull as the sire, but I very well could be mixing that up with another calf as well.

Houston's is theoretically the only one that springs to mind. White Oak/Endangered Ark are the only other possibilities imo if they elect to cooperate with the AZA. Same goes for Charlie Grey's herd.

I'd be shocked if Miami aquired Houston cows over San Antonio, especially given that San antonio should have the larger exhibit since theyre building from sceatch and on what I believe (?) is entirely undeveloped land.
The timeline works out better for San Diego since they've stated that once the Gorilla complex opens they'll shift focus to elephants.

I'm inclined to say Miami will likely have to import from Europe. It doesn't seem like Charlie Gray is in any hurry to hand over his cows for less than a hefty sum. The only potential group that could be of lower cost to aquire would be Emily and Maya, but considering Emily's numerous relatives and Maya's inbred status, it would be an arguably better investment to gather a pair of European cows instead.

However, I'm not 100% sure if Miami has the money for that. San Diego covered the cost for Ongard's import and owns him I believe. They're not as gifted with funds as a larger Zoo may be.

 

[John Marchwick]

@Frankie_number_1_fan Winnies father is Bodhi at the Denver Zoo.

As for San Antonio, was that officially confirmed they were bringing in Asian Elephants? Cause I thought it was African elephants for some reason they wanted to bring back?

 

[Jambo]

I could've sworn it was stated to be a Denver bull as the sire, but I very well could be mixing that up with another calf as well.

@Frankie_number_1_fan Winnies father is Bodhi at the Denver Zoo.

Indeed, but I think Ongard was a candidate for sire. From what I can remember Tupelo was AI'd with multiple males and indeed this abstract from the following article confirms it;

Tupelo’s first artificial insemination attempt occurred in early June 2019 and the Zoo received semen collections from multiple AZA institutions, including the Denver Zoo, over several days to increase chances of success. It was known that the chances of pregnancy on a first attempt were slim, but by collecting weekly blood samples, it was determined four months later that the first attempt was successful, and Tupelo was, indeed, pregnant.

Father’s Day From Afar, The Houston Zoo

However, I'm not 100% sure if Miami has the money for that. San Diego covered the cost for Ongard's import and owns him I believe. They're not as gifted with funds as a larger Zoo may be.

That's a fair point - especially as they seemingly were unable to upgrade their great ape exhibits.

San Diego does own Ongard, but he's essentially a 'product of the program', ie. the studbook will decide where he goes ect. San Diego just received ownership of him as it would make it easier in the case he had to return to owner for whatever reason. San Diego's much closer than Melbourne in Australia.

Miami was selected for Ongard as not only did they have the space to accommodate him, they also intended to start a breeding herd eventually. If that wasn't still the plan, I doubt Ongard would still be there honestly.

 

[Jambo]

I'd be shocked if Miami aquired Houston cows over San Antonio, especially given that San antonio should have the larger exhibit since theyre building from sceatch and on what I believe (?) is entirely undeveloped land.
The timeline works out better for San Diego since they've stated that once the Gorilla complex opens they'll shift focus to elephants.

As for San Antonio, was that officially confirmed they were bringing in Asian Elephants? Cause I thought it was African elephants for some reason they wanted to bring back?

Initially yes, but the director mentioned they had made the decision to switch to Asians to do an Asian themed precinct on the other side of the highway there on the unused plot of land.

I would honestly be shocked if San Antonio broke ground on this immediately after the gorilla precinct opens, but it will likely do so within the next few years. Hopefully they get a herd by this decades end.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

@Frankie_number_1_fan Winnies father is Bodhi at the Denver Zoo.

As for San Antonio, was that officially confirmed they were bringing in Asian Elephants? Cause I thought it was African elephants for some reason they wanted to bring back?

Thanks, but I am aware of that. Just was trying to recall what was released about the canidates before Bodhi was revealed as the sire. I think I may have been thinking of Rozie's stillborn from 2024, whose sire was stated to be specifically one of the Denver bulls.

I can't find anything that confirms Ongard was an option, but I did find some old speculation/hopes that he was a contender. Since the 2023 SSP doccument listed him as "in training" for AI, he may not have been trained at the time of Winnie's conception.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Miami was selected for Ongard as not only did they have the space to accommodate him, they also intended to start a breeding herd eventually. If that wasn't still the plan, I doubt Ongard would still be there honestly.

I seem to recall an article saying that Miami had a similar climate to Melbourne too, a win-win

In all fairness though, there aren't a ton of other places for Ongard to go currently. He's only 15, still rather young in the grand scheme of breeding after all and most other facilies are fairly set when it comes to breeding bulls. Give it a few years and he'll probably be a top choice. In fact I'd even be inclined to say he may be a pick for San Antiono's breeding bull once their complex opens.

It is also very possible he's being retained as a companion animal for Nellie while they make decisions about their two programs. While the goal may have been to focus on Asians at the time of his import, the spike in African breeding may be an incentive to switch gears. If they send out Ongard, then they'd be essentially forced to phase out Asians. I myself am hopeful Miami sticks with Asians, but the Africans have them beat in available matrilines that can be splintered. Given their size and financial trends I just can't see how they can stick with both species short of them having small bachelor groups of both.

 

[Jambo]

I seem to recall an article saying that Miami had a similar climate to Melbourne too, a win-win

I've lived in Melbourne and I can absolutely say that statement is false. Miami is far more tropical, and I'm sure Ongard is enjoying the far warmer winters over there.

I think it was in reference to Miami having a perfect climate for Asian Elephant breeding, as it's quite close to their climate in the wild.

It is also very possible he's being retained as a companion animal for Nellie while they make decisions about their two programs. While the goal may have been to focus on Asians at the time of his import, the spike in African breeding may be an incentive to switch gears. If they send out Ongard, then they'd be essentially forced to phase out Asians. I myself am hopeful Miami sticks with Asians, but the Africans have them beat in available matrilines that can be splintered. Given their size and financial trends I just can't see how they can stick with both species short of them having small bachelor groups of both.

Ultimately they'll have to end up making an assessment based on what's available. If there's no available females regionally, and in Europe, Miami may have to resort to transferring Ongard out and potentially switch to Africans.

Ongard's a very valuable male to the region - so in the event they are able to acquire cows, I can see them getting a flurry of breeding recommendations at least initially.

The Africans and Asians are kept at opposite ends of the zoo, so I don't think they'll necessarily effect one another in the meantime, but I do agree that the zoo likely won't end up having breeding herds of both. If they elect to breed Asians, they could phase out Africans once their last two girls pass, or even hold a small bachelor pairing there.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I've lived in Melbourne and I can absolutely say that statement is false. Miami is far more tropical, and I'm sure Ongard is enjoying the far warmer winters over there

My mistake! It appears my American is showing

The Africans and Asians are kept at opposite ends of the zoo, so I don't think they'll necessarily effect one another in the meantime, but I do agree that the zoo likely won't end up having breeding herds of both. If they elect to breed Asians, they could phase out Africans once their last two girls pass, or even hold a small bachelor pairing there.

It would be nice, even if a bit of a stretch, to see them retain at least bachelor groups for both species. Expansion would be smaller, less expensive and they wouldn't have to search too hard for available stock. Plus there is the added incentive of retaining both since they are the only zoo in the country to house both species currently.

Arguably they just need another Asian bull or two to get a bachelor group set-up for them (Sabai would be perfect!), and their African cows are "young enough" that a transfer to TES shouldn't be too much of a hassle in order to bring a few African bulls in.

It would be nice to see them breed, but both exhibits seem fairly landlocked if i'm looking at google maps and their map correctly. Which would mean they would need to sacrifice multuple neighboring exhibits in order to refresh one or both of the complexes. Of course though, if elephants prove to be a priority I'm sure they wouldn't mind the losses. They have quite a few possibilities if the funds and animals are available to them!

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Is there any reason why Makena at the Montgomery Zoo, who is now 18, was never housed with a bull or AI trained for breeding? I know Montgomery is non-AZA, but she is a valuable animal who comes from a wild-born mother (Tina), being her only offspring, and neither of her half siblings from her sire (Sdudla) have calves. If they want to breed her now it needs to be ASAP and sadly by the looks of it it will probably never happen since she is approaching the post-reproductive age for first calves.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Jacksonville has officially broken ground on their masterplan (starting with Manatees) and an elephant expansion is still on the table as far as has been stated.
Any guesses as to who may transfer there once the new complex opens? I believe I read something that their hope was to breed.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

It appears Umngani is pregnant; she seems to be moving rather slowly and is quite round in her midsection. She also has full breasts, so unless Kaia was still nursing, the most likely reason for her to be lactating is if she's pregnant
San Diego Zoo Safari Park on Instagram: "Keep on keeping up with The Pachy Bunch Umngani, the lovely lady with the longest tusks, is the herd's patient supermom. She's resourceful and sweet-natured, and can often be spotted picking up goodies the others leave behind. Khosi, Umngani's oldest daughter, is easy to spot as the herd's only "unicorn" with one tusk. This confident social butterfly leads the herd on adventures, and is typically the first to discover hidden gems around the habitat. Mkhaya, Khosi's little sister and the youngest in the herd, is a spirited and fearless spitfire, always eager to be part of the action. For more on this special herd, link in bio. #elephantvalley #meetheherd #partthree #sdzsafaripark"

Comparing her in 2010 when she was pregnant with Neepo, and now in 2025

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

It appears as though Umngani is pregnant, she seems to be moving rather slowly and appears to be quite round in her midsection. She also has full breasts, so unless Kaia was still nursing, the most likely reason for her to be lactating is if she's pregnant
San Diego Zoo Safari Park on Instagram: "Keep on keeping up with The Pachy Bunch Umngani, the lovely lady with the longest tusks, is the herd's patient supermom. She's resourceful and sweet-natured, and can often be spotted picking up goodies the others leave behind. Khosi, Umngani's oldest daughter, is easy to spot as the herd's only "unicorn" with one tusk. This confident social butterfly leads the herd on adventures, and is typically the first to discover hidden gems around the habitat. Mkhaya, Khosi's little sister and the youngest in the herd, is a spirited and fearless spitfire, always eager to be part of the action. For more on this special herd, link in bio. #elephantvalley #meetheherd #partthree #sdzsafaripark"
Compering her in 2010 when she was pregnant with Neepo, and now in 2025

I am very optimistic for multiple births at the safari park! I haven't seen too many photos of the other girls recently. It doesn't look like Khosi has any mammary development but perhaps she, if pregnant, is due later?

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I am very optimistic for multiple births at the safari park! I haven't seen too many photos of the other girls recently. It doesn't look like Khosi has any mammary development but perhaps she, if pregnant, is due later?

I am very hopeful that Khosi is also expecting sometime next year. Given how round she is, she looks like a beachball , Hopefully, Phakamile is also expecting she very receptive to Moose's advances

 

[John Marchwick]

I am very hopeful that Khosi is also expecting sometime next year. Given how round she is, she looks like a beachball , hopefully, Phakamile is also expecting she very receptive to his advances

If you’re talking about Vus Musi than yes, Phakamile and Vus Musi were romantically interested in one another when Vus Musi was still at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.

 

[John Marchwick]

There is increasing likelihood that Vus Musi will be transferred back to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Now truthfully, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance altogether has wanted Vus Musi to be kept at their institution for breeding for a while now, and as far as I know unless the SSP says otherwise is slated to return to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park to continue being their new breeding bull. That being said, there’s a good reason why San Diego wants to keep him around.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

There is increasing likelihood that Vus Musi will be transferred back to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Now truthfully, the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance altogether has wanted Vus Musi to be kept at their institution for breeding for a while now, and as far as I know unless the SSP says otherwise is slated to return to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park to continue being their new breeding bull. That being said, there’s a good reason why San Diego wants to keep him around.

I am disappointed to hear that this is still the plan. Even if he was sucessful in siring calves (as I am almost certain he was ), he is still related to one of their extremely valuable viable females that has no matriline of her own.
Unless Ndula is a nonbreeder due to medical reasons they have zero reason not to breed from her again. Its rapidly approaching 8 years since her last calf and they are running out of time for her.

I'm of firm belief that a "swap" with Dallas would be a win-win for both facilities here.

 

[John Marchwick]

I am disappointed to hear that this is still the plan. Even if he was sucessful in siring calves (as I am almost certain he was ), he is still related to one of their extremely valuable viable females that has no matriline of her own.
Unless Ndula is a nonbreeder due to medical reasons they have zero reason not to breed from her again. Its rapidly approaching 8 years since her last calf and they are running out of time for her.

I'm of firm belief that a "swap" with Dallas would be a win-win for both facilities here.

I see this going about in a different couple ways. Swap would be one of them, but another would be artificial insemination.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I see this going about in a different couple ways. Swap would be one of them, but another would be artificial insemination.

Yes certianly, both have benefits. AI-ing Ndula allows for Musi to remain onsite to breed the non-related cows. A full physical swap would introduce new genetics into both herds and be the more reliable option (especially being valuable in the case of Umngani and perhaps Swazi).

Just for reliability's sake, I think a swap would be the better option just given how expensive and finicky AI can be. Nothing says Musi would have to stay away forever either. He and Tendaji could head to each other's facilities for 2-3 years until pregnancies are secured and then swap back. Musi could then go on to sire more calves at the Safari Park before moving on to another facility permanently. Calves sired during the move would be of immense value and would beef up the Safari Park's genetic value specifically by a tenfold.

 

[John Marchwick]

Yes certianly, both have benefits. AI-ing Ndula allows for Musi to remain onsite to breed the non-related cows. A full physical swap would introduce new genetics into both herds and be the more reliable option (especially being valuable in the case of Umngani and perhaps Swazi).

Just for reliability's sake, I think a swap would be the better option just given how expensive and finicky AI can be. Nothing says Musi would have to stay away forever either. He and Tendaji could head to each other's facilities for 2-3 years until pregnancies are secured and then swap back. Musi could then go on to sire more calves at the Safari Park before moving on to another facility permanently. Calves sired during the move would be of immense value and would beef up the Safari Park's genetic value specifically by a tenfold.

Swazi is one of the cows Vus Musi was allowed to breed with, and was recommended to breed with the last time he was at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Swazi is one of the cows Vus Musi was allowed to breed with, and was recommended to breed with the last time he was at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.

I am aware of that, I have been involved in almost every recent discussion regarding breeding at the safari park. Respectfully, I do not need these things repeatedly stated when I know what is going on. This is becoming a frequent thing every time the safari park is brought up.
It was just previously stated that she took longer to conceive than the other cows previously, and potentially could be no longer reproductive.