I've never heard them shouting before though, I guess this varies from handler to handler? I mean, you would need to get your voice heard and appear in charge, it's the same with horses, but I've never heard them shouting at Whipsnade (not that its likely that the elephants are offended by their harsh tone lol) . I've never seen them use the ankus excessively either, again I guess this is a different approach by different staff members.
ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnades new baby Elephant
- Thread starter MARK
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Yassa didn't say they 'shouted' but used a 'harsh' voice which is a bit different. As for making your voice heard and appearing in charge, that is what the Indian & Asian handlers don't seem to do.
yes, i agree, Ithink also its largely a cultural thing.- people live and work alongside domesticated elephants. Totally different ethos and very different situation to looking after Elephants in a European Zoo
There are many, many, many reports about the horrible treatment many domestic elephants recieve in Asia by their mahouts. Constant chaining and cruel "breaking" of calves for example. The mahouts may have a different way to communicate with the elephants (and many will have a great relationship with them), but I don`t think for a second that the average working elephant in Thailand or India has a better life then the Whipsnade elephants...
Yes, I agree, there are everywhere good and bad people.
It`s just that you won`t find that many logging/tourist elephants in Asia which aren`t chained every night - paddocks with an elephant safe fence are unkown there from what I have heard and bulls in musth are commonly tethered to a tree for safe-keeping. In middle europe, this would be considered as abuse nowadays.
It`s just that you won`t find that many logging/tourist elephants in Asia which aren`t chained every night - paddocks with an elephant safe fence are unkown there from what I have heard and bulls in musth are commonly tethered to a tree for safe-keeping. In middle europe, this would be considered as abuse nowadays.
Oh, I totally agree. I wasn't going to get into all of that- it was only the difference in communication and commmand giving which I was talking about, not treatment generally.
In India & S.E. asia domestic elephants are treated in similar casual fashion to other livestock, including no doubt the same levels of abuse, and I've heard similar tales as Yassa.
But I've seen off- duty riding elephants & a bull in Kaziranga all tethered yet they showed no sign of stereotyped behaviour as commonly seen in european zoos and (formerly) circuses. Nor did the ex Logging elephants in Thailand, except noticeably those in Dusit Zoo.. I'm not sure exactly why but think it has something to do with them generally living a less confined, and more active life...
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
Getting back to Whipsnade, I think they really should think about winding down their elephant breeding programme. If Port Lympne were defeated by this, I don't see how Whipsnade will be any different. Unless a serious preventative solution is available soon, it seems cruel to subject a dysfunctional and disparate group of cows to pregnancy and giving birth only to have a high likelihood of losing their calves at a young age.
taun
Well-Known Member
Stopping the breeding is not really going to do anything, loss of infants is natural in the wild.
If you were to screen all Elephants for Herpes virus and only breed from those that don't have it, I believe the list of candidates would be small.
Better management techniques and screen is called for to help reduce this problem in the future not halting the breeding.
What I don't quite understand is why it can kill one or two calves in different years, such as at Whipsnade, but has not struck others in the same group?
And are 'Herpes free' herds such as Chester entirely safe from this virus or could it somehow be transmitted there(apart from bringing in a 'carrier' animal, that is)?
And are 'Herpes free' herds such as Chester entirely safe from this virus or could it somehow be transmitted there(apart from bringing in a 'carrier' animal, that is)?
taun
Well-Known Member
Chester’s herd may have herpes, but nothings surfaced yet.
From my understanding, herpes is a disease that is quite common yet does not always affect the animal it is in, unless certain condition arise (what these conditions are I don't think were aware of).
But from logical thinking, calves will suffer low immune system from time to time therefore being more likely the diseases will affect them. The ages mentioned would also suggest that around weaning period calves are more at risk as well, maybe due to less milk consumption containing back up antibodies.
Herpes is a very complex condition to diagnose and the situation at Whipsnade is a complex one.
It is unlikely that the carrier status of the bull is significant as the majority of the inseminations are done by artificial insemination to minimise any risk of disease transmission.
In healthy females it is near impossible to diagnose who is carrying EEHV, it relies on taking biopsies of lymph nodes and even this procedure has a fairly low hit rate. Therefore it is unclear which females may carry the virus. As it is shed very infrequently it is likely that these calves may have contracted it from their mothers and only shown clinical signs when immunocompromised for other reasons.
It is a complicated situation that needs further investigations though would be a shame to end the breeding programme at this stage.
Andy
It is unlikely that the carrier status of the bull is significant as the majority of the inseminations are done by artificial insemination to minimise any risk of disease transmission.
In healthy females it is near impossible to diagnose who is carrying EEHV, it relies on taking biopsies of lymph nodes and even this procedure has a fairly low hit rate. Therefore it is unclear which females may carry the virus. As it is shed very infrequently it is likely that these calves may have contracted it from their mothers and only shown clinical signs when immunocompromised for other reasons.
It is a complicated situation that needs further investigations though would be a shame to end the breeding programme at this stage.
Andy
I'm not so sure they were using AI for elephants at Whipsnade
They are for the majority - a team from IZW in Berlin come over to collect from the Bull and perform the AI procedure.
I always thought that all births at Whipsnade were the result of natural breeding and semen was collected for AI tries at other collections (some sucessful). The ZSL has never announced that any of the births were AI results. What I know for sure is that far mos ele births in Europe at nearly all other zoos are the result of natural breeding and no one is having concerns about disease transmission. That doesn`t make sense in Whipsnade anyway since Emmet is having regular contact with the females and calves, sharing the enclosure with them from time to time.