Very very stupid question about apes ....

GillP

GillP

Well-Known Member
Please don't all laugh at me ! I've a nasty feeling I'm going to show myself up here as a complete ignoramus.

I was talking to my 5 year old daughter today about lions and tigers, and we eventually got onto tigons and ligers ....... and then she asked if you could "get a mummy who was a gorilla and a daddy who was a chimp".

It's one of those questions that I feel I should know the answer to, but don't.

Is it possible for different apes to intebreed, and if so, (from a historical perspective, because I think it'd be rather awful) has it ever happened in zoos in less enlightened times ? (I have the feeling that even if it was biologically possible, that distinct ape species wouldn't co-habit happily together - though I know that mixed ape babies have been brought up together - eg. hand reared at Twycross in days gone by).
 
I've always found the prospect of a 'Humanzee' most disturbing. There's only about a 0.5% genetic difference between us and chimps...
 
It's not possible for different ape species to interbreed however they can coexist peacefully. For example gibbons and orangutans are often exhibited together and some zoos have tried mixed species exhibits with a combination of chimps, bonobos, or gorillas.
 
there even been a rumour to have crossbreeds between a chimp and a human! known as humanzees.
 
also an asian and an african elephant have cross-bred once, though I'm unsure how much dna is similiar to the pair in comparision to lions and tigers,
 
Marwell Dalek said:
I've always found the prospect of a 'Humanzee' most disturbing. There's only about a 0.5% genetic difference between us and chimps...
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0.5% between humans and bonobos, cant remember the chimp figure off the top of my head, but then again only 20% difference between humans and an oak tree.
 
Cat-Man said:
if lions x tigers can do it, then so can, say, Gorillas x Chimpanzees
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Can you please share your source for this catman, or at least make sure sure that you state its personal opinion in your post if you do not have one.

You only need to see what a small hiccup in DNA can do such as trisomy of the 21st gene leading to down syndrome to see that the DNA differences can prevent fertilisation and implantation. As to what can and will happen in laboratories in the future is an ethical dilema as well as a scientific challenge.
 
Actually, this question is not that stupid-especially in comparison to some of the questions previously asked at zoochat...

Is interspecific hybridisation in great apes possible? Depends on which species we're talking about. In orangutans, hybrids between Bornean (Pongo pygmaeus) and Sumatran (P. abelli) orangutans have been documented and are still present in various zoos.
Orangutan Hybrid, Bred to Save Species, Now Seen as Pollutant - The New York Times
[The taxonomic differentiation in subspecies shown in the article is no longer valid; they are now widely considered to be species on their own]

I can't remember ever getting serious information about hybridisation between the different gorilla species or between chimps and bonobos. There have been speculations about "cryptid" African apes such as the Bili apes being chimp-gorilla-hybrids, but similar to alleged "humanzees" like "Oliver", they turned out to be "just" chimpanzees.
Ivanov"s weird ape experiments created various rumours, blown up out of proportion by morbid layman speculation. So far, nothing conclusive and serious has come out of that, so that the existence of any "humanzee" or "humanbo" can be considered as just another urban legend.
 
of the great apes, which is the most similiar in dna. exculding bonobos, chimps and humans.
 
Thanks everyone for not completely dismissing my ignorance out of hand !

God no ...... it hadn't even crossed my mind to raise this question in reference to a human - ape cross. That truly is the stuff of legend (or urban myth). I seem to vaguely remember some BBC drama a few years back where there was (I think) a child who was half human, half gorilla. Very disturbing.

The reason I asked was really due to my embarrassing ignorance of biology. My daughter's question really stumped me but when I started thinking it was along the lines that although lions and tigers are separate species, they still belong to the same genus. And then I thought ....... homininae: chimps, gorillas. But that's probably over simplifying it.

Sun Wukong - thanks for your interesting reply. Sumatran - Bornean hybrids ..... now that is a subject I know something about, as Rajang, the orang at Colchester (my most visited zoo) is a hybrid.
 
Young apes of different species which were being hand-reared sometimes used to be kept together as playmates, but I can't think of any examples of adult apes of different species being kept together - except for mixed species pairs of gibbons, which may have led to hybrids occasionally, and mixed exhibits of orangs and gibbons.
I suspect that anatomical, behavioural and size differences would prevent hybridisation in most cases (except perhaps between chimps and bonobos). I'm not at all sure that IVF would be impossible - but I am sure that it would be totally unethical to do this type of experiment with apes or with any endangered species.

Alan
 
gentle lemur said:
ditions- but I can't think of any examples of adult apes of different species being kept together.
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I think there was at least one example somewhere of a Gorilla growing up with an Orangutan until they were nearly adult. I cannot remember where but it MAY have been the old Frankfurt breeding male 'Matz' who came to Germany from a circus-type setting in America, or it may have been one of the earlier 'famous' American Gorillas. Anybody?
 
Except for members of the same Ape genera (the two orangs, the two gorillas, bonobos and chimps), it probably can't be done. This is because of several significant chromosome differences (major inversions in sections that are lethal if messed up) that have occurred between the genera. If you were willing to accept a big enough loss (many dead foetuses before one managed to survive) this could probably be dealt with in a laboratory, but the 'natural way' (actual breeding) almost certainly wouldn't work.
 
I remember watching a program about a French zoo on Animal planet. I think it was called "My Daughter the Gorilla" It was about a handreared full grown female gorilla that lived in the house with teh zoo owners, anyway during the day it spent its time in the chimp enclosure with the chimps!

I am sure that bonobos have been accidentally exhibited with chimps, as chimps before people realised the difference... however breeding of either, in those days would have been unheard of never mind hybridising. it is something I have often thought about though and it may not be a complete impossibility between chimps and bonobos!

You can watch the Oliver programs on youtube!

I believe the Russians did some serious experiments with human/ape hybrids trying to create an army that would be twice as strong as humans and not as fusy about their food. Any results of this I would say are kept under lock and key which is a pity as it would be very interesting and scientifically valuable.
 
As a very, very general rule (and there are plenty of exceptions that appear to contradict the rule) animals which share the same generic name can often interbreed (for example, lions and tigers which are both Panthera), though the offspring may be sterile, but those in different genera cannot interbreed. So hybrids between Gorillas (genus: Gorilla), Orang-utans (Pongo) and Chimps (Pan) are technically impossible. For the same reason, it is extremely unlikely humans (Homo) could hybridise with any of our Great Ape cousins (thank God).
 
Vulpes said:
I remember watching a program about a French zoo on Animal planet. I think it was called "My Daughter the Gorilla" It was about a handreared full grown female gorilla that lived in the house with teh zoo owners, anyway during the day it spent its time in the chimp enclosure with the chimps!
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Just the memory of that program brought a big smile to my face. Wasn't she called something like Digit? :)
 
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