What do you all think about circuses?

That guy in the Berlin TP video really over reacted, I know there's dominance assertion and what not and that the elephant head butted him, but he didn't need to do what he did. Dan, who are you e-mailing in regards to the Greek video?
 
ashley-h said:
That video is very sad, gives all trainers and circuses a bad name :mad:
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You are certainly right about that, ashely-h. But do you really regard this as un-typical? I do not. I wish I could!

But even if I would be wrong there, how about these arguments?

Circus animal are being kept, "trained" and forced to "perform" for human pleasure - nothing else, right? The phenomenon of animal circus certainly holds no "educational value" ("conservation" etc etc)
or the likes of that, does it? This is SHOW BUSINESS and nothing else, isn´t it?

It might very well be the fact that that particular German circus you refer to treat their animals well. But is that really a typical example? Aren´t there enough testimonies on the web to suggest that the best thing would be if animal circus was globally outlawed?
 
If you want to go down the road of getting animals banned from circus why not go the whole hog and start trying to get logging Elephants banned in South east Asia,fishing Comarants in China and any other animal that is used by Homo sapiens for its own benefit??????
 
ashley-h said:
That guy in the Berlin TP video really over reacted, I know there's dominance assertion and what not and that the elephant head butted him, but he didn't need to do what he did. Dan, who are you e-mailing in regards to the Greek video?
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The two leading Swedish tabloids. They, along with the publicly owned two TV channels - in effect - pretty much set the agenda of public discussion in my country. (You know... what "regular people" talk about at work during coffee- or lunch break. Ignored and partly despised by the "cultural elites", though. But important if you want to reach out to the majority of the people.) Anyway, name of each tabloid and their web page:

Aftonbladet ("The Evening Paper") Aftonbladet: Sveriges nyhetsportal

Expressen ("The Express") Nyheter - Expressen.se
 
That's good, any replies? I watched the rest of that video, and what he did was uncalled for. I'm not an expert in elephant training, but no way would it be necessary to hit it that amount of times. Same with the young one at Berlin TP, I know he was probably angry and it was a spur of the moment thing, and he might have never even hit the elephant before, but it's still no excuse. Probably put the baby off people for life!
 
Not trying to annoy you in anyway, zoogiraffe, especially since you are a professional zoo keeper, if memory serves me right (and that is the profession that I in retrospect wish I would have tried to make mine) - I am still a bit baffled by some of your arguments.

You like animal circus? I don´t. I have read to many "horror stories" and unfortunately believe most of them to be true. To make a practical example of my way of thinking and to illustrate it with the video from athe Greek circus:

- Would you agree that this way of handling elephants is not uncommon among circuses in general (globally)?

- If you would disagree, would you be willing to take into consideration the argument that the fact that this kind of abuse obviously exists might be a reason to, if possible, globally outlaw animal circus, "just to make sure" that it is not repeated here and there?

Or are you able to present us with arguments that will convince us that circuses in general are good - serve such a practical purpose etc etc etc -that we should disregard the animal abuse that, for instance, is documented in this video?
 
Dan said:
You are certainly right about that, ashely-h. But do you really regard this as un-typical? I do not. I wish I could! But even if I would be wrong there, how about these arguments?
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Sorry to post twice but I just read that. I haven't visited every elephant circus (or zoo), but I know for a fact that said "evidence" on the net shows everything in the worse possible light and is often given deceiving titles such as "camel beaten with broom handle", when in actual fact the camel in the video was poked by the bloke sweeping it's yard to make it move. What he did wouldn't have hurt a toddler, let alone a hardy camel! So no, I don't think they should be outlawed as there are terrible zoos and I don't think zoos should be outlawed, only the bad ones should be :)
 
Dan, we posted that at the same time. If you feel that way then, taking into account the number of abused dogs that there are, does that mean there should be a ban on keeping dogs just to make sure that that abuse is not repeated here and there? Hell, loads of kids are abused, should everyone get the snip just to make sure no more kids come to any harm? In cases like this no one would know where to draw the line and we would end up with not being allowed to keep any animals for any reason at all.
 
Aaaaah, ashley-h........... you are such an idealist and optimist! And bless you for being so, I suppose, but then again...... a case could be made that your views in general are overtly optimistic and, dare I say it, perhaps even a bit "naive" (from my point of view, and - please - no offence!).

Whatever.... we share a common interest but often have very different points of views. That is OK. You have the advantage of debating in your own language. I have not, but I nevertheless like to exchange views with you.

It is midnight here in Sweden so I have go to bed. Will get back tomorow.
 
That was interesting, and was a pretty powerful video, but I still believe that there's 2 sides to every story. Take for example those lions in the beast wagon: We don't know that they didn't have a decent sized outdoor enclosure which most circus lions do. And I still don't really see the difference to zoos to be honest. We have to remember that this is Born free who, if they had their way, wouldn't even let me keep my bearded dragons, so they're going to make it look bad.
EDIT: Dan, we posted at the same time again lol. I wouldn't say I'm naive, bearing in mind I'm one of the few who's witnessed circus training first hand, it's no worse than how I taught my dog to sit ;)
 
Posted at the sime time, indeed! Thanks ashely-h, let´s continue our interesting discussion tomorrow.

Thanks also to blackpanther - will check out your link tomorrow.
 
Dan said:
Not trying to annoy you in anyway, zoogiraffe, especially since you are a professional zoo keeper, if memory serves me right (and that is the profession that I in retrospect wish I would have tried to make mine) - I am still a bit baffled by some of your arguments.

You like animal circus? I don´t. I have read to many "horror stories" and unfortunately believe most of them to be true. To make a practical example of my way of thinking and to illustrate it with the video from athe Greek circus:

- Would you agree that this way of handling elephants is not uncommon among circuses in general (globally)?

- If you would disagree, would you be willing to take into consideration the argument that the fact that this kind of abuse obviously exists might be a reason to, if possible, globally outlaw animal circus, "just to make sure" that it is not repeated here and there?

Or are you able to present us with arguments that will convince us that circuses in general are good - serve such a practical purpose etc etc etc -that we should disregard the animal abuse that, for instance, is documented in this video?
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Listen i agree what the video shows is just plain wrong and cruel,but please don`t tar all circuses with the same brush,all the ones i know treat the Elephants with great respect.Personnaly i have no problem with animals been used in a circus as long as they are looked after properly and trained using training on a reward based method and not one of beating them until they do what you want.
 
Dan said:
You like animal circus? I don´t. I have read to many "horror stories" and unfortunately believe most of them to be true. To make a practical example of my way of thinking and to illustrate it with the video from athe Greek circus:
Click to expand...


The joy of the written word. ;)
 
I know this is very dated but I have hated circuses since my early school years.

At the time a circus was visiting and, as was the practice, the "Big Top" went up and there was a public area for visitors where you could wander around the cages and look at the animals. After school mate and I stuck in from the rear by following a shallow gully.

We saw a chap laying into an elephant with a large leather strap. The elephant was obviously distressed.

That was the last time I went to a circus with "performing" animals. I told my parents that the clowns scared me, so I wouldn't get into trouble for being where I knew I wasn't allowed.
 
Greece considers ban on circus shows with animals

Well, let's hope they do the right thing.

Associated Press
2009-05-14 11:58 PM Fonts Size:

Greece is considering banning circuses with performing animals, after a video allegedly showing a trainer battering an elephant was posted on YouTube.

Agriculture Minister Sotiris Hadzigakis says the incident "is out of tune with our culture."

Posted on YouTube and on Greek blogs, the video shows a man repeatedly hitting an elephant over the head with a hooked pole before a Circo Massimo performance in the northern town of Florina this month.

Hadzigakis said Thursday such behavior "borders on barbarity," while using animals for human entertainment is a thing of the past.

Circus officials refused to comment on the video.
 
I personally hate them thats no way for animals to live, speaking of them there is one in Tonbridge currently, theres a protest on the friday
 
ashley-h said:
That's good, any replies? I watched the rest of that video, and what he did was uncalled for. I'm not an expert in elephant training, but no way would it be necessary to hit it that amount of times.
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No reaction from the Swedish tabloids, I am sorry to say.

I am somewhat pleased with what CritterBlog reports about the Greek Minister of Agriculture´s statement. But I am in no way t optimistic and I suppose that this beautiful elephant will have go on suffering mistreatment from this "trainer" of hers until she dies.
 
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