Worst Zoos

Meaghan was simply stating her opinion and is entitled to her opinion just as you are to yours, that is the whole purpose of a forum and it would be really boring if we all agreed on everything.

I did a search for the flamingoes at Edmonton mall, it seems they are on temporary breeding loan at Winnipeg, note the word temporary. This may not be the case, but I'm reading it from different sources, it may now be permenent, but because it was the case when reported it does not make these news services ignorant. Just because the staff work hard (maybe you work there?) doesn't make it a good zoo. Many people here dont like zoos combined with a theme park, let alone one at a mall. I'm a total advocate of zoos and kids being introduced to animals at a young age, but dont like to see zoos in general being critisized because of the ones that dont meet a high standard. There seems to be a lot of negative comments about the place on the internet, I'm sure if there hadn't been negativity, then the improvements would not have followed. If it is one of the top establishments in Canada (your opinion), it does not neccessarily follow it is a high class establishment, just that the standards in Canada cannot be very high (I'm sure this isn't the case). If you had come on this forum and stated that the flamingoes had gone and that the zoo was much improved than I would have had a positive view of the zoo. To come on and just make a personal attack is just wrong and in my opinion gives no credibility to your case.

If you had read any of Meaghans comments on other threads you would have noticed that she has extremely balanced views, ignorant is the last thing I'd describe her as, take the blinkers off and see that there is room for improvement in any collection
I was under the impression that this chat group was about zoos working together to improve facilities, I have worked in and run zoo's for over 30 years and you can make your big long statements to make out you know what you are talking about but the sad fact is it just does the opposite. You made a personal attack on a facility that you know nothing about and we have worked very hard on improving, (that is personal so expect it back). I do not sugar coat things, it is ignorance because you make statements without knowing any of the facts.

How many SSP programs are you involved in? We are involved in three.
How much money do you raise towards conservation programs? We are currently up to $8000 dollars this year and still raising more as we speak.
How many conservation projects do you support? We support 12 programs, 9 in Canada and 3 overseas.

I could go on.

When you talk about animals being in a mall, they are in a protected area seperate from the rest of the mall and monitored by the most high tech equipment that even rivals Sea World. Every Zoo in the world has animals in a building some where or another, a buidling is a building.

Smowleopard, wow I jsut hope that no one listens to you what are you an activist in voice for animals or something, sad.


As I said this is not the group I thought it was and will be retiring from it, if you want to make a difference work together with zoo's. And please do not sit there and say that this is not used as a zoo bashing session because all you have to do is read back on the posts.

Farewell and good luck.
 
@timss: I sincerely hope that you do not leave this forum, as it is vital to have many different voices and opinions on ZooChat. The more the merrier!:) In regards to the West Edmonton Mall, I'm beginning to suspect that you work there as I've rarely ever heard anything positive about the animal facilities from zoo fans. The place has come a long way since the days of cougars, black bears and tigers in tanks during the 1980's, but out of almost 75 zoos, wildlife parks and aquariums that I have visited in my life I'd say that the West Edmonton Mall (of which I have visited many times) is probably in the bottom 5 facilities. A few years ago the tiny glass flamingo tank was surrounded by yelling, noisy shoppers and I definitely felt sorry for the tropical birds. If the flamingos have since disappeared then that is terrific news, and now it is time to get the penguins out of their crappy little exhibit!
 
I was under the impression that this chat group was about zoos working together to improve facilities, I have worked in and run zoo's for over 30 years and you can make your big long statements to make out you know what you are talking about but the sad fact is it just does the opposite. You made a personal attack on a facility that you know nothing about and we have worked very hard on improving, (that is personal so expect it back). I do not sugar coat things, it is ignorance because you make statements without knowing any of the facts.

How many SSP programs are you involved in? We are involved in three.
How much money do you raise towards conservation programs? We are currently up to $8000 dollars this year and still raising more as we speak.
How many conservation projects do you support? We support 12 programs, 9 in Canada and 3 overseas.

I could go on.

When you talk about animals being in a mall, they are in a protected area seperate from the rest of the mall and monitored by the most high tech equipment that even rivals Sea World. Every Zoo in the world has animals in a building some where or another, a buidling is a building.

Smowleopard, wow I jsut hope that no one listens to you what are you an activist in voice for animals or something, sad.


As I said this is not the group I thought it was and will be retiring from it, if you want to make a difference work together with zoo's. And please do not sit there and say that this is not used as a zoo bashing session because all you have to do is read back on the posts.

Farewell and good luck.


I think the thing people on this forum are trying to say is compared to other establishments it is poor. If it is in a mall or in the countryside. A poor zoo is a poor zoo. We all have poor zoos where ever you are & in most of these the staff give 120% but they can only do so much.
Everyone has there own opinion. Some of the best
zoos in the world have alot of people who hate them.
 
I was under the impression that this chat group was about zoos working together to improve facilities, I have worked in and run zoo's for over 30 years and you can make your big long statements to make out you know what you are talking about but the sad fact is it just does the opposite. You made a personal attack on a facility that you know nothing about and we have worked very hard on improving, (that is personal so expect it back). I do not sugar coat things, it is ignorance because you make statements without knowing any of the facts.

How many SSP programs are you involved in? We are involved in three.
How much money do you raise towards conservation programs? We are currently up to $8000 dollars this year and still raising more as we speak.
How many conservation projects do you support? We support 12 programs, 9 in Canada and 3 overseas.

I could go on.

When you talk about animals being in a mall, they are in a protected area seperate from the rest of the mall and monitored by the most high tech equipment that even rivals Sea World. Every Zoo in the world has animals in a building some where or another, a buidling is a building.

Smowleopard, wow I jsut hope that no one listens to you what are you an activist in voice for animals or something, sad.


As I said this is not the group I thought it was and will be retiring from it, if you want to make a difference work together with zoo's. And please do not sit there and say that this is not used as a zoo bashing session because all you have to do is read back on the posts.

Farewell and good luck.

You condemn what you see as a personal attack on your facility, yet seem happy to personally attack meaghan, snow leopard and myself for simply having a different opinion to yourself.

The forum is for discussion, not just for zoo news and is mainly used by zoo enthusiasts with a few professionals coming here too. It used to be called zoobeat, maybe the previous zoochat.com was a group for zoos co-operating to improve exhibits?

The posters were simply expressing their opinion as to a zoos they disliked why would having the facts make them like it rather than dislike it? I have never visited your zoo, but after your comment I decided to do a google search on your facility. When doing this for other zoos you typically find family photos and blogs on peoples experience as well as some of the official zoos website and related newspapers stories. It took a lot of searching to come up with these types of links for your facility as there were pages and pages of negativity about the exhibits, particularly the flamingoes. Please do a google search yourself and tell me that i'm wrong, I used the terms edmonton mall zoo flamingo to search by. I admit the unfortunate thing about the internet is that on search engine those pages that are visited most often are at the fore front of the search and so even if the zoo has improved drastically the newer and less frequent accessed pages wont be appearing. It is a very hard job to change peoples opinions once they have been made, those that visited the zoo before the improvements are unlikely to be back and those searching for information before making a first visit may be put off by the negative comments.

No zoo has unlimited finances or space and with your vast experience I'm sure you and the zoo staff do the very best they can with the resources they have available to them. Even the very best zoos are continually improving, its even harder to exceed improvements rather than just keep up with the pack. Please let me know which part of my post was contentious as I was simply posting what I had read, you said my long statements proved I dont know what I'm talking about. Rather than just criticise us for not knowing the facts why dont you give us the facts -what improvements are being made and what are the future plans for the zoo? Have the improvements reduced complaints and increased your membership and repeat custom? How does the negativity from the general public affected the morale of your staff and what is being done to motivate them? How is the zoo financed and will the economic downturn affect future plans?

I know its hard not to take criticism personally when its directed at the place that your blood, sweat and tears go into, but, despite the improvements, you would at least agree that some areas aren't as good as they could be even if they meet accreditation standards?
 
Tropiquaria, Somerset
I stayed for 30 minutes.

Absolutely appauling enclosures. What looked like the air vent from the cafe came out in the meerkat enclosure making it reek of chip fat. Their Tapir and Lynx enclosures were woeful and their wallaby enclosure had to no grass. Not even concrete. Just dusty mud.


never been there but if you check out the website "meet the keepers" there doesn't seem to be any skilled staff which makes you concerned for animal welfare. Senior keeper is ex waitress!!!!!:confused:
 
One that springs to mind was the collection at the Kursaal in Southend. I cannot begin to describe how bad it was. I went there once on a day trip in the 60's. Once was enough!
 
I was under the impression that this chat group was about zoos working together to improve facilities, I have worked in and run zoo's for over 30 years and you can make your big long statements to make out you know what you are talking about but the sad fact is it just does the opposite. You made a personal attack on a facility that you know nothing about and we have worked very hard on improving, (that is personal so expect it back). I do not sugar coat things, it is ignorance because you make statements without knowing any of the facts.

How many SSP programs are you involved in? We are involved in three.
How much money do you raise towards conservation programs? We are currently up to $8000 dollars this year and still raising more as we speak.
How many conservation projects do you support? We support 12 programs, 9 in Canada and 3 overseas.

I could go on.

When you talk about animals being in a mall, they are in a protected area seperate from the rest of the mall and monitored by the most high tech equipment that even rivals Sea World. Every Zoo in the world has animals in a building some where or another, a buidling is a building.

Smowleopard, wow I jsut hope that no one listens to you what are you an activist in voice for animals or something, sad.


As I said this is not the group I thought it was and will be retiring from it, if you want to make a difference work together with zoo's. And please do not sit there and say that this is not used as a zoo bashing session because all you have to do is read back on the posts.

Farewell and good luck.

I've never seen the place myself.
But if I heard these sorts of reviews from "my visitors" I'd be concerned that this was the impression they were getting.
Just because we care and work hard does not mean we are able to produce exemplary results.
We can get defensive or we can open our ears and listen. As others wrote, we don't have to agree, but we could ask ourselves some tough questions rather than stomping off.
 
never been there but if you check out the website "meet the keepers" there doesn't seem to be any skilled staff which makes you concerned for animal welfare. Senior keeper is ex waitress!!!!!:confused:

Hmm, yeah. Ive just checked the site out for myself and it is a bit worrying. :( On a personal plus for me, if these people can find work in zoos, I can.
 
Tropiquaria

Tropiquaria, Somerset
I stayed for 30 minutes.

Absolutely appauling enclosures. What looked like the air vent from the cafe came out in the meerkat enclosure making it reek of chip fat. Their Tapir and Lynx enclosures were woeful and their wallaby enclosure had to no grass. Not even concrete. Just dusty mud.


It is a shame that this establishment has gone downhill. It was up for sale a few years ago, in fact I wanted to buy it but couldn't raise the funds. I have a newspaper photo of two of my children taken there with a giant tortoise, about 1990. They had some very interesting reptiles and amphibs there then and the Curator was Clive ...... No good at names these days. Not been there recently so can't comment on the state it's in now.
 
I was under the impression that this chat group was about zoos working together to improve facilities, I have worked in and run zoo's for over 30 years and you can make your big long statements to make out you know what you are talking about but the sad fact is it just does the opposite. You made a personal attack on a facility that you know nothing about and we have worked very hard on improving, (that is personal so expect it back). I do not sugar coat things, it is ignorance because you make statements without knowing any of the facts.

... if you want to make a difference work together with zoo's. And please do not sit there and say that this is not used as a zoo bashing session because all you have to do is read back on the posts.

I would first like to echo what others have said, and say that I hope you do not decide to leave the forum based purely on opinions and allegations on this thread.
I think it unfair to judge people's expertise, their moral approach to animals in captivity, or how up-to-date their knowledge purely from a thread entitled 'worst zoos'. Pretty much everyone here is a zoo lover, so a thread like this would likely bring up very strong opinions and emotions; what's more, it's unlikely that a seasoned zoo-goer would regularly revisit a zoo that they consider to be 'the worst' and would thus be lacking more recent details.
You would find that a great deal on this website involves suggestions for improvement to establishments, as well as feedback on what is and isn't liked. Much of this is opinion, and thus open to debate, which is generally encouraged on this forum. A lot is also speculation, or recollection of previous events - the absolute validity of which is occassionally questionable. Another point for which I am thankful is that this website is not limited to zoo-workers, but is open to lay-people of all ages who share an interest in zoos and animals. At several points, zookeepers and experts have stepped in to correct or give further insight (as you did yourself by telling us that your institution is involved in three SSPs).
I hope that you get the chance to look through the rest of the website and that you manage to change your mind.
 
Has anyone been to the tiny zoo at Drayton Manor Park? They have lions and other big cats, and are in tiny, tiny enclosures.

I'm surprised this one hasn't been closed down tbh

:) Sal
 
Do Drayton Manor have lions?
I thought they only had Tigers and Black Leopards along with smaller cats.
Im visiting during the summer.Im not keen on any idea of zoos and theme parks but it should be good.
The zoo looks rather small with average sized enclosure but all rather bare, hopefully i'll be able to check it out for myself.
 
When I went there afew years ago, they still had lions. Not been for a while. Will have to convince the other half to take us down there one day and have a look and see if the compounds have got any larger etc, or still the same.

Cheers,

:) Sal
 
Well I hope here in the U.S. things are changing for the better. In my state of Arizona, there were three really bad roadside zoos when I first moved here that are now (thankfully) all closed.

Payson Zoo
Douglas Wildlife Zoo
Navajo Nation Zoo

(Never went to that last one, but from what I saw on a magazine article and a television show, it was not good).

A fourth, which I'm not sure was good or bad (but I suspect bad) has also closed: Saihati Camel Farm.


So now all the really bad zoos in my state are gone and I hope the same happens for the rest of the country.
 
Well I hope here in the U.S. things are changing for the better. In my state of Arizona, there were three really bad roadside zoos when I first moved here that are now (thankfully) all closed.

Payson Zoo
Douglas Wildlife Zoo
Navajo Nation Zoo

(Never went to that last one, but from what I saw on a magazine article and a television show, it was not good).

A fourth, which I'm not sure was good or bad (but I suspect bad) has also closed: Saihati Camel Farm.


So now all the really bad zoos in my state are gone and I hope the same happens for the rest of the country.

So, you wouldn't rank the Grand Canyon Deer Farm amongst those? I haven't been since I was a kid, so I don't really remember if it was good or not.
 
A better way to measure a zoo?

LONG POST WARNING...

The majority of posts I've seen in this thread seem to focus on physical plant (enclosures and design). I believe measuring any zoo or oceanarium by those standards alone can be misleading.

It can also be misleading to judge any facility entirely on whether they're accredited by AZA, CAZA, or whoever. These agencies, for all the good they do, are not perfect in their own right and could do with taking some constructive criticism as well.

There are LOTS of other factors that come into play when looking at any zoo or oceanarium: How healthy the animals appear, how they interact with their environment, how the zoo staff do their jobs, the overall appearance of the park, how well they take care of visitors... well, you get the idea.

Let's start with The Alabama Gulf Coast Zoo as one example. You've probably seen or heard at least something about them. They've survived and rebuilt through no fewer than three hurricanes with practically no losses in terms of their animals. They were the leading feature in the series "The Little Zoo that Could." They are a registered non-profit and, as one might imagine of such, constantly strapped for cash.

They're also small. You can walk the entire park in an hour or two, and the enclosures (notably for the big cats) are not the biggest or fanciest. However, they are very well maintained, and the animals are among the healthiest I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. Visitors are not ignored either. There are ample shady spots, with benches, and drinking fountains are present at the restrooms.

If you visit, watch the big cats for a while. You'll notice a couple of things. Not only is there NO pacing behavior whatsoever, but the critters are actually WATCHING THE PUBLIC as much as the public is watching them (probably more so, in some cases). Just as one example, my wife and I have watched one of the tigers actually interacting, of their own free will, with groundskeepers who are working outside their enclosure.

The keepers will readily and honestly answer any question put to them, no matter how politically twitchy or uncomfortable it might be, and the degree of caring they all show for the animals is something I think any zoo could learn from.

Does the place have shortcomings? Of course they do, mainly related to available space. Most of that aspect will likely be addressed when they move to their new (and more hurricane-resistant) spot in 2012.

Now, for all this goodness, for all the enrichment they provide their animals, and for the fact they've been entrusted with (and eminently successful at) raising some of the rarest and most endangered tiger species in the world, one interesting fact stands out.

They are not accredited by AZA.

Why? Mainly because one of the requirements AZA imposes for accreditation is that you cannot, under any conditions, hand-raise any animal outside of domestics or orphan rehab. This zoo has been incredibly successful at hand-raising tigers for as long as they've been in existence, and I know they're doing so for other critters as well.

At the time we were there, they had a publicly-available tiger-cub encounter program that not only helps raise funds to keep the zoo going (they're a registered non-profit), but was second to none in program quality and allowed time with the cats. They're also in the process of developing similar programs for (to start with) lemurs and kangaroos.

Whatever you may think of such pay-to-play programs, they serve at least two extremely valuable purposes, outside of fund-raising, IF they are well done (and this zoo does do them right): They greatly increase a visitor's appreciation of the animal(s) involved and, perhaps more importantly, they make for an animal that will be much better socialized to strangers in any sort of public presentation environment.

This makes for a calmer animal overall, which makes for greater safety for handler and public alike in the long run. Tell me that's a Bad Thing, and I'll happily tell you you're out of your gourd. :D

Let's take another example: The "Zoo of Northwest Florida," formerly known as the Gulf Breeze Zoo. Although they are greatly loved by many of the locals, and have done a fair job of weathering the same hurricanes that battered the Alabama park, to visit the place is an exercise in learning how NOT to run a zoo.

First problem: Pacing behavior. You'll likely see it any time their leopard or lions are awake and roaming their enclosures. If the cats are asleep, just check the ground along the perimeter of the fence. You'll see a generous assortment of well-worn areas just about the right size for a cat walking endlessly around.

Second: No drinking fountains anywhere in the park, and only ONE (overpriced) soda machine at the far end. Very few benches or shady spots to sit.

Third: Massive problems with internal politics and power struggles, both to the overall detriment of the animal residents. Details on these and other issues can be found at this link:

http://www.pensapedia.com/wiki/The_Zoo_Northwest_Florida

Googling will locate other material, I'm sure.

Fourth: If you can find a keeper, they'll probably be reasonably honest in answering questions. Finding one (or ANYone who can answer questions), however, is the problem. If the zoo has volunteers or docents, I didn't see any. Answering some specific questions I had about their raptors took a radio call from the gift shop and a 20 minute wait. Even then, it turned out the info I got was wrong. It took a follow-up E-mail to the lead keeper to get my questions accurately answered.

Fifth: Descriptive signs for many exhibits are missing completely, or been so poorly maintained they're illegible. Empty exhibits are widespread.

And yet, for all these issues, this zoo presents a deceptively "cozy" appearance to the uninitiated visitor. Granted, many people don't stay that long, especially during the summer season when heat exhaustion is a real threat. However, the place does not look that bad on initial entry. It takes a reasonably skilled eye to see the real problems.

Here's the interesting part: They used to be AZA-accredited, years ago. They lost it, due to poor practices that flared when the original owner gave up the place, and never got it back.

The moral of the story: When you plan to decide if a zoo is "good" or "bad," don't fixate on one factor: Look at more than just the enclosures. Look at more than just the grounds. Look beyond accreditation, or lack thereof. Look at how healthy (or not) the animals are, both physically and mentally. Look at how the staff does their jobs. Look at everything you can think of, and then try to think of something more.

Then, and only then, will you really have enough info to make a judgment call.

Happy travels.
 
"Look at how healthy (or not) the animals are, both physically and mentally."

I've not visited either of those zoo's but am of the opinion that a hand reared animal is unlikely to be as mentally healthy as a parent reared one. You can tell me I'm out of my gourd as much as you like but I've seen a lot of hand reared animals. I would also suggest that animals being very focused on people is perhaps something to be viewed as unnatural as opposed to a virtue. I love seeing an animal sitting very close to me and totally ignoring me. It makes it feel more "real" I don't know how to explain it, and I'm sure it's a feeling near enough 100% of zoo visitors don't share with me.

But yeah with the handrearing we'll have to agree to disagree. No matter how much money it raises for the zoo and good enclosures it doesn't make up for depriving an animal of the social stimulus of being brought up by their own species.

But I guess it aises the point of what is the lesser evil when discussing how bad a zoo is? Moving away from your examples above should some negative things have more weight then others? Which is worse? Enclosure size or lack of enrichment? Poor hygene or poor social groupings? Everything is daminging in it's own way.
 
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