Zoo Aquarium de Madrid Barbary Lions at Madrid Zoo?

[Pertinax]

I've heard that the Lions at Madrid Zoo are believed to be Barbaries, as they are descended directly from Lions originally imported directly from the wild in North Africa.

Does anyone know whether there are any plans to DNA test these Lions to discover their ancestry?

Any news about them would be welcome.

 

[James27]

I haven't heard about this before, but I can't help but feel they must have got cross bred somwhere along the line. It just seems unlikely that any of the are actually Barbary.

 

[Pertinax]

more than likely but it is not impossible if the stock have remained inbred since they arrived. And even if outcrossed, if they were from genuuine Barbary stock originally they may still carry the genes. (The difference being they didn't originate from Rabat Zoo)

 

[MARK]

more than likely but it is not impossible if the stock have remained inbred since they arrived. And even if outcrossed, if they were from genuuine Barbary stock originally they may still carry the genes. (The difference being they didn't originate from Rabat Zoo)

You can try emailing Madrid zoo about them

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I hope our Spanish correspondents can shed some light on the situation?
I do think their connection to the wild is far more realistic than the Rabat Zoo as the Spanish formerly occupied Western Sahara and have been the mainstay also for preserving the Mhorr dama gazelles ....

The PL and continental "Barbary" stock have all proven to be not pure-bred Barbaries or even something proximating that - as observed by Pertinax -. You can freely consult the previous DNA/genetics studies on the subject.

K.B.

 

[Pertinax]

I wonder if there would be language problem?

 

[Pertinax]

the reason I asked about these Lions now is that there has been a rather brief report in the latest BBC Wildlife magazine that hinted that 'Wildlink International' are again funding some tests on Lions and results would be known 'this month'. Maybe they are resurrecting this project?

It did not say whether they have tested any Lions from other locations(i.e. not descended from Rabat/Port Lympne stock) such as Madrid or some of the other possible claims. I'm also wondering exactly how accurate/foolproof the DNA testing which has been done so far, really is, and whether they are proposing to try other techniques as well.

 

[KEEPER]

The barbary lions acording ISIS:

Panthera leo leo
Barbary lion (extinct 1942)
Range: NORTH AFRICA


Institution Males Females Unknowns Births (last 12 months)

MADRID Z 1 3 0 0


Panthera leo nubica
Synonym of Panthera leo leo, Barbary lion
Range: TANZANIA


I read long ago, there in Madrid, Rabat and Washington are of the same genetic line...and very closely.

 

[Cat-Man]

The barbary lions acording ISIS:

Panthera leo leo
Barbary lion (extinct 1942)
Range: NORTH AFRICA


Institution Males Females Unknowns Births (last 12 months)

MADRID Z 1 3 0 0


Panthera leo nubica
Synonym of Panthera leo leo, Barbary lion
Range: TANZANIA


I read long ago, there in Madrid, Rabat and Washington are of the same genetic line...and very closely.

that means the PL ones are along that line to, they came from washington!, Mabey, Just mabey, The barbary lion genes are preserved

 

[zoogiraffe]

that means the PL ones are along that line to, they came from washington!, Mabey, Just mabey, The barbary lion genes are preserved

Some how i doubt it but if they do still exist what a brilliant story!

 

[Cat-Man]

Some how i doubt it but if they do still exist what a brilliant story!

Eh????

 

[Pertinax]

that means the PL ones are along that line to, they came from washington!, Mabey, Just mabey, The barbary lion genes are preserved

The Port Lympne Lions are a mixture of Lions bred at Washington(which in turn came from Rabat Zoo), Lions imported directly from Rabat and Lions bred at Port Lympne from these. This Rabat zoo line was in 2006 scientifically proven by DNA analysis NOT to contain any 'Barbary' genes so that would include Port Lympne's too.

If the Madrid lions are related to them, the same (presumably) applies to them. If they originated from a different source and have not been tested, it could be a different matter however.

 

[zoogiraffe]

Eh????

In a nut shell Barbary Lions are extinct in the wild and in zoo`s,so all it is a nice story but sadly not true.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

zoogiraffe,

Re. most purported Barbary lions you are right. Where a possibility for the contrary exists is the lions in Ethiopia and Yemen. All others to the best of my knowledge are a genetic dead end and do not even proximate to true Barbary lions.

However, I do value the research by Wildlink in that we do need to shed light on all the African and generic lions in our zoos. Generics have no conservation value and should never be bred in the future. If zoos are to really contribute to in situ conservation we must strive to have pure-bred individuals for which we are able to delineate and confirm their ancestry to wild founders.

The first steps towards an EAZA wide lion breeding strategy have yet to be taken. There has been talk, notably Rotterdam Zoo with very endangered West African (and for some reason did not follow through with required imports and decided then on Asiatics instead ... as to be had).

The only current conservation breeding programme for lions is the Asiatic Panthera leo persica. Even this programme now requires infusion of new genes from India and that should be our main focus (to persuade the Gujaratis to send some 5.5 or 10.10 wild Asiatic lions to the EEP before long (they have the numbers and most just languish at the moment and are not being used for breeding due to space issues et al).

Quite possibly, Angolan and Namibian lions might be an ESB and would benefit from closer management as most derive from too few founders. Imports from in situ are not necessarily a bad thing when done with the fullest cooperation with range countries and as being part of a full lion conservation programme encompassing both in situ and ex situ populations. I am convinced it can be done, just do we have the will to do so?

As for the extinct Cape and Barbary lions: as above make an effort to establish whether genes of both exist globally by comparing purporteds with museum specimens (the technique to research ancient mtDNA and microsatellites is now a more or less done deal). And lo and behold, we do find no genes exist at all, bow our heads in a humbling moment to acknowledge us humans have managed to truely hunt them to extinction.

 

[Pertinax]

However, I do value the research by Wildlink in that we do need to shed light on all the African and generic lions in our zoos.

Do you have any links or specific information on whether Wildlink have become active again recently, or what exactly they are doing in respect of Lions?