AZA Animal Exchange

zebedee101 said:
Sorry for the confusion and we are in total agreement on all of your points. What I was trying to get across is that unfortunately it seems that the zoo is really just a store front and everything has a price tag on it, even the rare and endangered animals, in my eyes that makes it a store, not a zoo. My english (uk) sometimes doesn't translate to english(usa) as well as I'd like! Animal Kingdom in NJ is a place I have never visited and was suprised to see that they giraffes there. Having lived in NJ for 8 years and worked at an AZA accredited zoo for that time, it was an establishment that I had never heard mentioned. Therefore it doesn't even appear known about to the zoo community. The animal underworld book previously mentioned highlights the issues with surplus zoo stock, especially when new exhibits dictate the loss of other species to make room. It seems that rare and exotic animals are treated as saleable commodities and that if no other accredited zoo wants them they are offered to none accredited zoos and then down the chain to exotic auctions where they can end up in pet stores or canned hunts.
Click to expand...

Oh I'm sorry I just go frustrated because I thought you were defending them. Thanks for understanding and I'm glad you agree with me on the issue. :) Their Mandrills, Brazilian Tapirs, Siamangs, Gibbons, Many Guenon Species, and Giraffes are all proof they have been working with accredited zoos recently.
 
Holding space at accredited zoos is obviously the problem. I don't see why virtually all zoos think they can only have one exhibit for each type of animal. What's wrong with having two or three different tiger exhibits? Use one just for babies and juveniles and leave it empty when it's not needed. Or why not build more holding space behind exhibits, especially for big cats and other carnivores that sleep a lot. Rotate them onto exhibit for an hour at a time and let them sleep in a night house the rest of the time. Animals get a peaceful break away from public and public gets to see an active animal at any time of day.
 
Arizona Docent said:
Holding space at accredited zoos is obviously the problem. I don't see why virtually all zoos think they can only have one exhibit for each type of animal. What's wrong with having two or three different tiger exhibits? Use one just for babies and juveniles and leave it empty when it's not needed. Or why not build more holding space behind exhibits, especially for big cats and other carnivores that sleep a lot. Rotate them onto exhibit for an hour at a time and let them sleep in a night house the rest of the time. Animals get a peaceful break away from public and public gets to see an active animal at any time of day.
Click to expand...

Interesting idea, I can imagine though it would be exspensive keeping more than few tigers.
 
Arizona Docent said:
Holding space at accredited zoos is obviously the problem. I don't see why virtually all zoos think they can only have one exhibit for each type of animal. What's wrong with having two or three different tiger exhibits? Use one just for babies and juveniles and leave it empty when it's not needed. Or why not build more holding space behind exhibits, especially for big cats and other carnivores that sleep a lot. Rotate them onto exhibit for an hour at a time and let them sleep in a night house the rest of the time. Animals get a peaceful break away from public and public gets to see an active animal at any time of day.
Click to expand...
And speaking of big cats, they are actually overstocked in US zoos, at least according the AZA. The AZA is trying to convince more zoos to increase their capacity for large cats because there is no point in handing out breeding recommendations if there is nowhere for the offspring to go.
 
That's good. I believe the most endangered animals should be in higher supply and less endangered like African Lions, African Leopards, White Bengal tigers etc. They are important because they are the animals the majority of the public wants to see. I believe Sumatran and Malaysian Tigers should take the place of Bengals. African Lions should be switched with either Asian Lions or Cheetahs. African Leopards should be switched with Amurs and Snows. Just an idea.
 
Arizona Docent, this type of theory is in place in the Grizzly Discovery Center in West Yellowstone, MT. I'm not sure how often they rotate them in and out but the bears are always active. This is a bit off topic but one of their enrichment is the testing of bear proof containers. It's fun to see the ones that didn't make the grade. I think the idea of displaying juveniles is important like you said. I'm wondering if the Henry Doorly Zoo does that. Their tiger exhibit (with four subspecies) has indoor and outdoor spaces in it.
 
I meant to say I wonder if the Henry Doorly Zoo rotates their cats between inside and outside exhibits, not displaying juveniles.
 
kbaker116 said:
That's good. I believe the most endangered animals should be in higher supply and less endangered like African Lions, African Leopards, White Bengal tigers etc. They are important because they are the animals the majority of the public wants to see. I believe Sumatran and Malaysian Tigers should take the place of Bengals. African Lions should be switched with either Asian Lions or Cheetahs. African Leopards should be switched with Amurs and Snows. Just an idea.
Click to expand...

Actually almost all big cats are in healthy supply right now except for a few tiger and leopard subspecies. Take a look at the NA tiger populations:

Amur Tiger: 60 institutions with 64.87.4
Sumatran Tiger: 25 institutions with 42.27
Indochinese Tiger: 7 institutions with 7.8 - NEEDS ATTENTION
Malayan Tiger: 15 institutions with 22.19
Bengal Tiger: 24 institutions with 34.49.2

Twenty years ago almost every institution would have Bengals but other subspecies needed attention and they have received it. Also note the SSP is really working hard to boost the North Indochina population with some success (its still in the early stages).

Cheetahs, Snow Leopards, and Amur Leopards are doing quite well right now and are in larger supply in the US than most people think. However, Clouded Leopards have seen a more recent population drop and need more breeding to secure their captive population.

As for Asian Lions, unless the EEP gets the ball rollin' (and I completely understand their hopeless position) the Asian Lion captive population will have to be "diluted" in order to be saved or lose the subspecies completely.
 
ColumbusZoo001 said:
Actually almost all big cats are in healthy supply right now except for a few tiger and leopard subspecies. Take a look at the NA tiger populations:

Amur Tiger: 60 institutions with 64.87.4
Sumatran Tiger: 25 institutions with 42.27
Indochinese Tiger: 7 institutions with 7.8 - NEEDS ATTENTION
Malayan Tiger: 15 institutions with 22.19
Bengal Tiger: 24 institutions with 34.49.2

Twenty years ago almost every institution would have Bengals but other subspecies needed attention and they have received it. Also note the SSP is really working hard to boost the North Indochina population with some success (its still in the early stages).

Cheetahs, Snow Leopards, and Amur Leopards are doing quite well right now and are in larger supply in the US than most people think. However, Clouded Leopards have seen a more recent population drop and need more breeding to secure their captive population.

As for Asian Lions, unless the EEP gets the ball rollin' (and I completely understand their hopeless position) the Asian Lion captive population will have to be "diluted" in order to be saved or lose the subspecies completely.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully asian lions will be brought to the U.S. along with Javan Rhinos, Golden Monkeys etc.

Going back to animal kingdom zoo if anyone is interested I found their USDA report and it didn't look good. Many bad situations for animals. I will post their collection and numbers of animals in a little bit.
 
Asian lions do need more attention. It would also be good to get some Javan Rhinos. I remember reading an article in National Geographic about how zoos regretted not obtaining Javan tigers before they went extinct. As far as Indochinese tigers; are there fewer of them because a lot were found to be Malayan?
 
Yes Cincinnati used to have Indochinese Tigers but now they are Malayn did they switch or did they find out they are actually malayn?
 
They were found to be malayan. According to a letter I got from the SSP coordinator (Mike Dulaney, Cincinnati Zoo) a couple years ago, ALL so-called indochinese tigers in U.S. were from the newly established malayan subspecies. However, a previous post from this thread says there are 7 or 8 north indochinese in the U.S. If so, that is very interesting, although I'm not sure the AZA can support an entire SSP for a fourth subspecies. In fact, I don't know of any other SSP's where there are more than one SSP for different subspecies of the same animal (I could be wrong).

As for asian lion, there is an entire passage on this very topic in the book Sailing With Noah by St Louis Zoo director Jeffrey Bonner. He tells how the lion SSP was established and it was decided to let the entire U.S. population die out and be replaced by founders from Africa, not India. He strongly disagreed with this decision (being director of Indianapolis Zoo at the time) but was overuled.
 
That seems pretty counterproductive to let the entire US population of a critically endangered subspecies die out to let in another more common one.
 
@ elefante - Let me clarify one thing. They did not let indian lions die out (I assume that's what you mean by "critically endangered subspecies."). The so-called asian lions in U.S. (and there weren't many) were found to be asian-african hybrids. Most of the population were african, but since they did not have good breeding records with regards to origin and inbreeding, it was decided to let them naturally die out and start from scratch. However, it was Bonner's opinion that since they were starting from scratch, why not use the endangered subspecies instead of the more common one.
 
It would make sense to start from scratch with the Asian subspecies, which in nature is critically endangered.
 
elefante said:
It would make sense to start from scratch with the Asian subspecies, which in nature is critically endangered.
Click to expand...

BTW this thread has gotten way off topic. Yes it would make more sense but this is kind of the EEP's project. The SSP naturally went with African lions because there were already abundant numbers in the US even after the hybrids died off. Why transfer a bunch of lions that are breeding very well in Europe to the US where they might not breed at all? You would only be further endangering the captive population. There may come a time when the US can acquire Asian lions but why risk the success the EEP is having?
 
and.... African lions aren't quite "sitting pretty" in the wild like nearly everyone on this thread seems to think. There population in the wild has seen a significant decrease over the last 15 years.
 
Ituri said:
and.... African lions aren't quite "sitting pretty" in the wild like nearly everyone on this thread seems to think. There population in the wild has seen a significant decrease over the last 15 years.
Click to expand...

I am afraid this is where logic and emotion clash ...!!!

Most people do not realise that virtually all mega vertebrates survive by a long thread and might well be considered endangered.

In the case of lions: in Kenya predictions are that within 20 years the species may be extinct, even inside reserves.

Now to all the complacent people out there think about the Kenya example and where that lets us sit ...!!! :eek:
 
ColumbusZoo001 said:
BTW this thread has gotten way off topic. Yes it would make more sense but this is kind of the EEP's project. The SSP naturally went with African lions because there were already abundant numbers in the US even after the hybrids died off. Why transfer a bunch of lions that are breeding very well in Europe to the US where they might not breed at all? You would only be further endangering the captive population. There may come a time when the US can acquire Asian lions but why risk the success the EEP is having?
Click to expand...

To get back on topic,

I found a copy of the USDA report of the zoo. Here is a list of the species as of 2006, they have more Japanese Macaques now, more spotted hyeanas, a tapir was born, a giraffe, and a camel.

Common Marmosets 4
Black Capped Capuchin 10
Weeper Capuchin 1
White Faced Capuchin 8
Squirrel Monkey 6
Bush Baby 1
Black and White Ruffed Lemurs 12
Red Ruffed Lemur 2
Ring Tailed Lemur 8
Blue Monkey 2
Debrazza Monkey 3
Diana Monkey 3
Grivet Monkey 3
Mona Guenon 3
Spot Nosed Guenon 2
Sykes Guenon 2
Patas Monkey 5
Mangabeys 4
Celebes Macaque 2
Gray Armed Macaque 4
Japanese Macaque 1
Tonkean Macaque 1
Colobus Monkey 1
Hamadryas Baboon 2
Olive Baboons 4
Mandrill 4
Spider Monkey 11
White Handed Gibbon 2
Siamang 6
Gray Wolves 4
Spotted Hyeana 1
Striped Hyeana 1
Coyote 3
Arcitc/Silver Fox 2
Arctic/Blue Fox 2
Fennec Fox 6
Addax 3
Camels 4
Giraffes 7
Reeves Muntjacs 4
Beisa Oryx 1
Scimatar Horned Oryx 5
Yaks 2
Tapirs 4
African Crested Porcupine 2
Coatimundi 2
Red Kangaroo 6
Patagonain Cavies 3
Two Toed Sloth 3
Pot Bellied Pigs 2
Alpaca 1
Llamas 4
Goats 2
Sheep 3

As you can see their primate collection is large and many are almost impossible to come by without the help of zoos. The Mandrills and Japanese Macaque came from the buffalo zoo. They used to have a Masai Giraffe 2 year old Micheal which came from the National Zoo he was killed by the Zoo's sire giraffe. Burton Sipp is the founder of the facility and has been a dealer/middleman for zoo animals in America.

The Zoo was even offered for sale (similar to Dartmoor Zoological Park) but I believe it didn't sell. It was offered for 5 million dollars, along with a house and their pet store. Wouldn't it be nice to buy the zoo and fix it up. I'm sure it would have cost a fortune though.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top