The Killing of Feral Camels
- Thread starter dragon(ele)nerd
- Start date
Castration, importing them to other places, I imagine there'd be some type of contraception that could be used. IMO it's quite barbaric for people just to say "kill them". China's seriously over populated by people but they haven't resorted to a cull
who would pay to castrate all of those animals? or for the contraceptives. We have more important things to spend money on then ensuring the survival of feral pests.
This is not quite true nor a sensible approach to the issue in hand.
If one wishes to either exterminate or eradicate camels from the arid interior ecosystem in Australia a 2-pronged approach is called for:
A) an eradication cum shooting and/or capture programme of wild camels
+ transfer of the carcasses to slaugherhouse (for meat consumption)
+ transfer to milk and meat-farming establishments
B) a neutering cum sterilisation campaign of wild camels
Why does one require to implement on top of strategy A) strategy B) as well?
Simply shooting or taking out of the ecosystem will not restrict the reproductive capacity of the wild camel population. In other words, this strategy may take out adult animals, but it will have little effect on the ground on camel reproductive capacity or regeneration (threatening the overall efficacy of this technique). In order to effectively restrict the reproductive capacity of the population neutering and sterilisation are essential.
This phenomenon of simple replacement after eradication is well-known in many species. Prime examples are a predator like the fox or the opportunistic cane toad.
In Australia at least the latter should ring a bell or …!
It would cost considerably less to hold a cull every few years then to castrate the animals. I do agree that the meat should be transferred to doggers or abbattoirs but again is there a market for it. maybe the pet food industry could look in to this. But the big issue here would be cost. a cull uses a helicopter, shooter and pilot. Castrating requires the same and a team on the ground.
They could shoot the camels and the offspring and have the same exactly result and it would be much cheaper and better for the environment in the short term.
CASTRATING will prevent those camels from breeding BUT so will shooting them.
If you are worried about costs ... your method is woefully inadequate. It is like foxes with camels, after you shoot 1-2 they will simply be replaced short term by other immigrant camels. In the end, it will cost the Earth to do it simply by eradication method.
If you do not prevent continued reproduction, you will be shooting camels even in 50 years time. After all, think of the numbers involved and how many camels could be shot by hunting. This operation would go on for yonkers years'.
The examples of fox and cane toad indicate that a simple eradication programme will not work at all, unless you do something about the reproductive capacity of that population.
Like these, camels are opportunistic feeders and users of the more developed Mammalia-free environment that is Australia. Hence, they have been so successful as a species.
Suffice: eradication will not work, is not cost-effective and will ultimately fail to reach its objectives. Just check all the eradication manuals on the subject ... and mind you, these have been written on the back of small island environments (in Australia it will be near impossible to achieve even close to 90-95% eradication rates given the vastness of territory and the species' numbers).
If you do not prevent continued reproduction, you will be shooting camels even in 50 years time. After all, think of the numbers involved and how many camels could be shot by hunting. This operation would go on for yonkers years'.
The examples of fox and cane toad indicate that a simple eradication programme will not work at all, unless you do something about the reproductive capacity of that population.
Like these, camels are opportunistic feeders and users of the more developed Mammalia-free environment that is Australia. Hence, they have been so successful as a species.
Suffice: eradication will not work, is not cost-effective and will ultimately fail to reach its objectives. Just check all the eradication manuals on the subject ... and mind you, these have been written on the back of small island environments (in Australia it will be near impossible to achieve even close to 90-95% eradication rates given the vastness of territory and the species' numbers).
Steralisation
I just knew that would come up
If they can't kill them all they definitely can't sterilize them all. How will sterilizing some stop the rest breeding. A sterilized camel does as much damage as a not sterilized one.
Since when does shooting foxes not work, I have never had a fox I shot kill any more wildlife afterwards. You can't say the same thing about a sterilized one.
Those who promote fertility control only have one example of a success to quote. It is a fenced army property in the US which was overpopulated with Deer. They caught and sterilized as many deer as they could and the population fell. But when the study is looked at hunting was also used at the same time and if not for the hunting, numbers would have continued to increase. If they can not control deer with sterilization in a fenced enclosure how will it work with camels over half of Australia.
I can not see your logic. Why would sterilizing camels restrict the reproductive capacity any more than killing them. Like dead foxes dont kill wildlife, dead camels dont breed either. Killing is just a different method of sterilazation. Feed and water are not limited in the Australian desert, before that happens it would look like the Sahara. Our deserts are well vegetated with plants camels love.
As I have stated I do not agree. Some may not breed if the population is high enough, but by those numbers they are devastating to wildlife.
I recently saw on TV one property where they shoot 1000 camels a year. If someone was full time they may shoot 10,000 a year. 30 or 40 people employed full time doing this will drop numbers. The problem is the area is so vast as numbers drop the numbers able to be shot will also drop. They will never be eradicated, but numbers can be controlled to levels which the environment can survive. That is the only possibility and those who think they will be eradicated are dreaming.
I just knew that would come up
If they can't kill them all they definitely can't sterilize them all. How will sterilizing some stop the rest breeding. A sterilized camel does as much damage as a not sterilized one.
Since when does shooting foxes not work, I have never had a fox I shot kill any more wildlife afterwards. You can't say the same thing about a sterilized one.
Those who promote fertility control only have one example of a success to quote. It is a fenced army property in the US which was overpopulated with Deer. They caught and sterilized as many deer as they could and the population fell. But when the study is looked at hunting was also used at the same time and if not for the hunting, numbers would have continued to increase. If they can not control deer with sterilization in a fenced enclosure how will it work with camels over half of Australia.
I can not see your logic. Why would sterilizing camels restrict the reproductive capacity any more than killing them. Like dead foxes dont kill wildlife, dead camels dont breed either. Killing is just a different method of sterilazation. Feed and water are not limited in the Australian desert, before that happens it would look like the Sahara. Our deserts are well vegetated with plants camels love.
As I have stated I do not agree. Some may not breed if the population is high enough, but by those numbers they are devastating to wildlife.
I recently saw on TV one property where they shoot 1000 camels a year. If someone was full time they may shoot 10,000 a year. 30 or 40 people employed full time doing this will drop numbers. The problem is the area is so vast as numbers drop the numbers able to be shot will also drop. They will never be eradicated, but numbers can be controlled to levels which the environment can survive. That is the only possibility and those who think they will be eradicated are dreaming.
How many people are their which have such small hearts?
And you'd put a price on somethings life...?
Edit: I realise it happens, I know it's not going to change I just think it's sad that think this way. At the end of the day, if it was feral domestic dogs and they organised a cull there'd be blue murder. They manage sterilising feral cats and dogs in Asia, surely that's on a much larger scale than the camel problem.
Edit: I realise it happens, I know it's not going to change I just think it's sad that think this way. At the end of the day, if it was feral domestic dogs and they organised a cull there'd be blue murder. They manage sterilising feral cats and dogs in Asia, surely that's on a much larger scale than the camel problem.
taun
Well-Known Member
You have to be cruel to be kind, and do some research on the problem. A simple animal came upset a delicate ecosystem and destroy many other species in doing so.
Shoot them all I say.
I would be very interested to know where sterilisation of cane toads was successful in reducing an introduced population.
Please cite your source.
Hix
I seem to be agreeing with all of the aussies...A mass cull is the best method. We already do it to our national emblem so why not a pest that is destroying habitat for our native species. And shooting big camels in the huge plains of low shrubs from a helicopter is a hell of a lot easier then shooting cunning foxes that can easily hide.
Re camels: for this adaptable aridland species I was advocating a 2-pronged approach whereby contraception would be a complimentary method (of preventing the population from reproducing any further). I have never advocated using the contraception method alone (with camels that is). Given that an eradication programme for the species is going to be very costly (both in numbers and long-term commitment to exterminate), one would more easily achieve a total population crash of camels by additionally reverting to contraceptive methods.
In foxes I would say you are never going to realistically exterminate foxes without trying to prevent reproductive regeneration. It pretty well-known example from our shores is that simple shooting of fox pairs to prevent predation on sensitive wetland, wading and dune habitat birdlife will only allow immigrant pairs to reclaim the open territories. The net result of shooting foxes is thus a small, but insignificant reduction.
As for cane toads, their eradication by conventional means has not been very effective to date given their opportunistic nature. Cane toads have been a pest animal in Australia for a good number of years and it would be worthwhile to try some new techniques on eradication. To find a method which is species specific and whereby cane toad reproduction might be compromised or even fully prevented would seem a worthwhile experiment (obviously trials first in the lab, as previous field experiments have done more damage than is scientifically sensible) in reducing cane toad populations in Australia.
As for kangaroos, IMO the technique of indiscriminate shooting of kangaroos and wallabies is not very effective either given that the agricultural business was the accomodating factor for kangaroo and wallaby populations to explode by simply creating more grassland habitats for them (designed only to be used for sheep farming). Thus, if wildlife managers do not restrict grassland habitat, kangaroos and wallabies will simply recolonise those habitats continuously.
I just knew that would come up
If they can't kill them all they definitely can't sterilize them all. How will sterilizing some stop the rest breeding. A sterilized camel does as much damage as a not sterilized one.
Since when does shooting foxes not work, I have never had a fox I shot kill any more wildlife afterwards. You can't say the same thing about a sterilized one.
Those who promote fertility control only have one example of a success to quote. It is a fenced army property in the US which was overpopulated with Deer. They caught and sterilized as many deer as they could and the population fell. But when the study is looked at hunting was also used at the same time and if not for the hunting, numbers would have continued to increase. If they can not control deer with sterilization in a fenced enclosure how will it work with camels over half of Australia.
I can not see your logic. Why would sterilizing camels restrict the reproductive capacity any more than killing them. Like dead foxes dont kill wildlife, dead camels dont breed either. Killing is just a different method of sterilazation. Feed and water are not limited in the Australian desert, before that happens it would look like the Sahara. Our deserts are well vegetated with plants camels love.
As I have stated I do not agree. Some may not breed if the population is high enough, but by those numbers they are devastating to wildlife.
I recently saw on TV one property where they shoot 1000 camels a year. If someone was full time they may shoot 10,000 a year. 30 or 40 people employed full time doing this will drop numbers. The problem is the area is so vast as numbers drop the numbers able to be shot will also drop. They will never be eradicated, but numbers can be controlled to levels which the environment can survive. That is the only possibility and those who think they will be eradicated are dreaming.
Phew. Thanks Monty. You seem to understand. Culling will have exactly the same effect as steralisation but with more short term benefits, camels can live a long time so steralising them will achieve very little. even if they don't reproduce - A dead camel can't reproduce either.
And to the person that brought up dogs in Asia. That is completely different i think you'll find the majority of even feral dogs live in urban areas in Asia. This means they are easier to catch, and they are not causing anywhere near as much damage to the environment.
Most hunting tourist operators offer camels. I have a mate who paid to shoot 2 camels in South Australia. He did not say how much it cost him.
I have also talked to a bloke in Alice Springs about camel shooting. He goes out onto local properties shooting and takes all the meat he can eat and leaves the rest. Sometimes they can be difficult to find while other times you see them everywhere. He had some people up from Victoria and took them camel shooting. They drove away for days and never even saw one. That's when You need a plane to locate them.
The problem with this is if you cant shoot them how are you going to give them a contraceptive.
I do not think either foxes or camels will ever be exterminated from Australia. We need to manage these species and keep their numbers as low as possible. The only way eradication could ever work was a disease and this could escape and wipe out foxes worldwide. This would not be popular where foxes are native. They have the same problem with the daughterless technology with carp. It has been suggested that if this is successful and it was spread overseas it would have devastating effects to where carp are native. I can only think of one introduced species which was sucessfuly exterminated from Australia. That was the Canadian Goose and they were in small numbers when eliminated.
I would be very interested to know where sterilisation of cane toads was successful in reducing an introduced population.
Please cite your source.
Hix
Since 1994 CSIRO has been researching pathogens and virus specificity in cane toads. From 2001 they have looked at gene technology as a method for control.
Other research groups have done likewise. The research I was referring to is on sex pheromones in order to disrupt the breeding cycle.
When talking islands the introduction of wildlife disease is the worst candidate for options. Wildlife disease can jump species and thus any conscious introduction needs to look at how it will perform in the wild on other species in lab conditions. In other words it needs to be species specific.
Hi Jarkari and Monty,
I know my invasive species and methods of control. Re camels: I am with you guys on camel shooting and its short term benefits over other methods.
All I am suggesting is we do need to look at other methods of population control in order to maximise the benefits to the Australian outback arid ecosystems of any camel extermination programme.
K.B.