Bronx Zoo "The Bronx Zoo Controversy Thread"

Dan

Dan

Well-Known Member
Zebraduiker´s recently uploaded, big and splendid set of pictures from Bronx Zoo has generated a whole bunch of of interesting debates in the gallery. Most Zoochatters seem to regard Bronx Zoo as one of the best in the world, but apparently there are dissidents.

Personally, I have never been to the zoo, but I have been deeply impressed by most of what I have read and seen about it on ZooChat, Zoolex and other sources. I still am. However, an argument like this from Zebraduiker intrigues me:

"A great exhibit for indian rhinos, no question, but they have 7, and they can use it just for one animal at the same time ! The same for okapis, theyy have 5, and use the little exhibit, which is nice LOOKING, but animals don'tc are about NICE LOOKING exhibits, but they can use the yard just for one animal."

Arguments like these are now and then put forward by members of ZooChat (most often with regard to zoos in general) and I am always saddened by them. The only zoo that I can claim to be extremely familiar with is Copenhagen, and as critical as I am of certain enclosures there, I am sure (and glad to be able to be sure) that there are no such "hidden shames" in that zoo. The general layout is so transparent that it would simply not not be possible to hide away anything.

Anyway, returning to Bronx:

Did the debates in the gallery cover everything or would it be appropriate to open up a thread in the forum, like I am doing now?

I know that I am in a way playing the Devil´s advocate here, as there seems to be a consensus of Bronx´s greatness, except for a few dissidents. But I am the type of person who is always interested in the arguments of dissidents.... :rolleyes:

Feel free to speak your mind!
 
I was there for 1 1/2 days in summer 2001. Although it was certainly a good zoo, it was not spectacular - there are a lot of zoos that are better overall. Of course, the Congo Gorilla Forest is outstanding as everyone here agrees. And there was nothing terrible elsewhere, just nothing truly outstanding. Given the reputation of this century old zoo and the highly esteemed Wildlife Conservation Society, I was expecting a lot more. I was expecting it to be the best or one of the best in the country, and came away disappointed because my expectations were set too high.

I was also frustrated that the tigers and indian rhinos could only be viewed from the monorail. I LOVE monorails in zoos, I just thought they should have a had a walking path as well. But I have not been there since they opened Tiger Mountain or Madagascar, which I am sure will improve my overall ranking of Bronx.
 
No zoo is perfect, you can't have all the animals outside in the largest most naturalistic exhibit that they have. For the Indian Rhinos they would have to make 7 huge enclosures, and that isn't realistic. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is why do people get hung up about animals spending longer amounts of time in their holding areas. Most species prefer their holding to their exhibit yards. Our rhinos at Cleveland Zoo much rather spend the day leisurely in their indoor stalls, than outside in our spacious exhibit yard. So why Dan, do you get so upset over animals being in a holding area if the animals like their holding areas? Our leopard at Cleveland Zoo prefers his 5 by 5 indoor holding cage than his 2000 square foot outdoor exhibit. The outdoor exhibit has much more things for him to do, but he still rather spend more of his time in his tiny holding cage.
 
Arizona Docent said:
I was there for 1 1/2 days in summer 2001. Although it was certainly a good zoo, it was not spectacular - there are a lot of zoos that are better overall. Of course, the Congo Gorilla Forest is outstanding as everyone here agrees. And there was nothing terrible elsewhere, just nothing truly outstanding. Given the reputation of this century old zoo and the highly esteemed Wildlife Conservation Society, I was expecting a lot more. I was expecting it to be the best or one of the best in the country, and came away disappointed because my expectations were set too high.

I was also frustrated that the tigers and indian rhinos could only be viewed from the monorail. I LOVE monorails in zoos, I just thought they should have a had a walking path as well. But I have not been there since they opened Tiger Mountain or Madagascar, which I am sure will improve my overall ranking of Bronx.
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Then what zoo truly is outstanding? Not too many zoos have exhibits better than Congo. Also, what you said doesn't make sense, you say nothing truly outstanding, but you say CGF is outstanding. And what about Himalayan Highlands? You say you are a big cat fanatic, and this is easily the one of the best Snow Leopard exhibits in the nation. Both authors of ABZ have said it to be spectacular.
 
Blackrhino - I am not "upset", I am asking questions and I appreciate any input - yours included.
 
Dan said:
Blackrhino - I am not "upset", I am asking questions and I appreciate any input - yours included.
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Well, you often express frustration over animals being kept in holding areas. The animal rights groups also are extremely angry at zoos that keep their elephants indoors overnight.
 
While Himalayan Highlands is the best snow leopard exhibit in the U.S., that's not saying much. Snow leopards are the one big cat that have completely gotten ripped off when it comes to zoo exhibits, so Bronx had no competition there. And while Himalayan Highlands is good, it was not as great as I anticipated it would be (was expecting something bigger).

I am not saying Bronx is bad, it is a good zoo, it's just not the best.
 
I can only give the view of an experienced zoo visitor, of course I don't know all the details of what goes on behind the scenes...

I have only been to the zoo once and have also been to Central Park Zoo. I visited just before Congo opened so it was a while ago... and I really liked it. The only thing that really struck me as being bad was the Jungle World leopard 'tank' and the bear grottoes which were less than ideal but I have seen worse. Otherwise I really liked it. I like the feel of the zoo, the many trees and the feeling of space. I think the snow leopard exhibits are excellent in particular. As some other people have mentioned, it's also important to note the work of the Wildlife Conservation Society in-situ.

I'm looking forward to going back soon I hope.
 
Arizona Docent said:
While Himalayan Highlands is the best snow leopard exhibit in the U.S., that's not saying much. Snow leopards are the one big cat that have completely gotten ripped off when it comes to zoo exhibits, so Bronx had no competition there. And while Himalayan Highlands is good, it was not as great as I anticipated it would be (was expecting something bigger).

I am not saying Bronx is bad, it is a good zoo, it's just not the best.
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While I agree with Bronx as one of the top 2 US zoos, I agree with your snow leopard comment entirely.
 
BlackRhino said:
No zoo is perfect, you can't have all the animals outside in the largest most naturalistic exhibit that they have. For the Indian Rhinos they would have to make 7 huge enclosures, and that isn't realistic. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is why do people get hung up about animals spending longer amounts of time in their holding areas. Most species prefer their holding to their exhibit yards. Our rhinos at Cleveland Zoo much rather spend the day leisurely in their indoor stalls, than outside in our spacious exhibit yard. So why Dan, do you get so upset over animals being in a holding area if the animals like their holding areas? Our leopard at Cleveland Zoo prefers his 5 by 5 indoor holding cage than his 2000 square foot outdoor exhibit. The outdoor exhibit has much more things for him to do, but he still rather spend more of his time in his tiny holding cage.
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I love your rhino exhibit! I spent almost an hour there 2 weeks ago. I got to see them up close because they were near the door to go inside! LOL
 
zoogeek said:
I love your rhino exhibit! I spent almost an hour there 2 weeks ago. I got to see them up close because they were near the door to go inside! LOL
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Not to get off topic, but thank you. I have had the privilege of working alongside our head rhino keeper, and I might be interning with them next summer. They are really fun to take care of, and I have two paintings by them.
 
I've never heard of anyone on ZooChat ever declaring that the Bronx Zoo wasn't anything less than one of the 5 best in North America, but I suppose that anything is possible What zoos are better? Maybe San Diego and San Diego Wild Animal Park to some people, but after that....?? Exhibits like Congo Gorilla Forest, Himalayan Highlands, Tiger Mountain, African Plains, Wild Asia, World of Birds, Baboon Reserve, MouseHouse, JungleWorld, Madagascar, etc, are all much more impressive than what is at most other zoos, and I only just described a portion of the 265 acres that make up this superb zoo.

To quote from the book "America's Best Zoos": "The San Diego Zoo is one of the world's best. In the United States, only New York's Bronx Zoo is in the same league". That says it all right there.:)
 
BlackRhino said:
... One thing that never ceases to amaze me is why do people get hung up about animals spending longer amounts of time in their holding areas. Most species prefer their holding to their exhibit yards. Our rhinos at Cleveland Zoo much rather spend the day leisurely in their indoor stalls, than outside in our spacious exhibit yard.... Our leopard at Cleveland Zoo prefers his 5 by 5 indoor holding cage than his 2000 square foot outdoor exhibit. The outdoor exhibit has much more things for him to do, but he still rather spend more of his time in his tiny holding cage.
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I just re-read this post and I find it very interesting. I honestly and genuinely love it if these observations are correct. They do surprise me, though.

"Most species prefer their holding to their exhibit yards."

I do find it a bit hard to believe. I have seen many zoo animals pace in their exhibit yards. So has everyone who ever visited a zoo. Most of these pacing animals would be happier in their much smaller holding areas?

Gee, I don´t know! I am not convinced.
 
Dan said:
I just re-read this post and I find it very interesting. I honestly and genuinely love it if these observations are correct. They do surprise me, though.

"Most species prefer their holding to their exhibit yards."

I do find it a bit hard to believe. I have seen many zoo animals pace in their exhibit yards. So has everyone who ever visited a zoo. Most of these pacing animals would be happier in their much smaller holding areas?

Gee, I don´t know! I am not convinced.
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You would be convinced if you have taken care of these animals. I have cared for our leopard and our rhinos at Cleveland Zoo before and I can assure you they would much rather be inside than out. All the keepers at Cleveland Zoo have told me the animals prefer their indoor holding areas. So why do animals pace in their outdoor areas Dan? Usually it's because they are eager to go in.
 
BlackRhino said:
You would be convinced if you have taken care of these animals. I have cared for our leopard and our rhinos at Cleveland Zoo before and I can assure you they would much rather be inside than out. All the keepers at Cleveland Zoo have told me the animals prefer their indoor holding areas. So why do animals pace in their outdoor areas Dan? Usually it's because they are eager to go in.
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Surely then this begs the questions, why don't they like being outside? and what can we do to improve it? so that they can enjoy more time outside.

I really think that we should not be blind, while CGF looks good its not perfect and constructive criticism should be welcomed as its the only way things will improve.
 
I was just going to ask the same questions that taun does, but then I read his post.
 
Dan said:
I was just going to ask the same questions that taun does, but then I read his post.
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It's scary, were starting to think a like!

The zoo industry needs to be constant evolving, there may be a few methods that work but there could be better ways of doing things, I hope they continue to think outside the box.
 
Amen to that, taun!

And BTW, I don´t think that our views have really clashed that much anyway... different opinions on details, perhaps... but you seem to be pretty keen on the question of animal welfare at zoos.

And that is my main concern, as you know.
 
BTW: I put quotation marks around the title of this thread just because of the fact that there seems to be a consensus at ZooChat about Bronx Zoo being one of the best zoos in the world - except for a few dissidents thinking otherwise.

But none of the dissidents have written anything in this thread so far. Feel free to do so, if you like.

I have no hidden agenda. I am just curious.
 
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