Bronx Zoo "The Bronx Zoo Controversy Thread"

[johnstoni]

There are many factors as to why an animal does not use the exhibit space.

I don't think you can make the assertion that an individual 'likes' to be in its holding area simply because you witness it choosing to occupy that space repeatedly. Olfactory, aural and visual over-stimulation from visitors, vehicles or adjacent species, or lack of shade, shelter from wind or rain etc can all contribute to an animal choosing a barren holding area rather than being out on exhibit. Also, if an area is shared on rotation, a less confident animal may not be comfortable in a space which smells strongly of other individuals it is not directly mixed with.

With the level of cooperation between institutions these days, is there really any need to hold 5 okapi or 7 Indian rhino if you have to rotate them on exhibit? Are the off-exhibit holding spaces as large?

Temperate zoos holding tropical/desert/warm grassland species already have a problem keeping their animals outdoors through the winter, with temperature and light levels being low.

I haven't seen animals on rotation since London zoo did it with its antelopes until the 1990s. Even then, the animals not given access to the outside paddock were still on display. I find it slightly disingenuous for any institution to present an animal as if, to the average visitor, it occupies the display area most of the time, rather than as one of a relatively identical 'cast' of individuals of the same species. I think this kind of rotation is completely different from managing a breeding group in a largely off-exhibit facility, with a display enclosure attached simply to demonstrate a small part of the group and the work of the zoo. Which is it at the Bronx?

 

[Zooplantman]

Surely then this begs the questions, why don't they like being outside? and what can we do to improve it? so that they can enjoy more time outside.

And I am also curious:
why is this a priority?
I'm not saying it isn't, but I would like someone to explain, and some scientific backing would be much appreciated, why they assert that being outside is important for the animal's well-being?

My fear is that is an anthropomorphic projection ...which ranks it on a par with "animals do not belong in zoos, they should be free."

Am I wrong?

 

[Dan]

Spontaneously - as the amateure I readily confess to be - I find johnstonis arguments very convincing. More views?

 

[taun]

And I am also curious:
why is this a priority?
I'm not saying it isn't, but I would like someone to explain, and some scientific backing would be much appreciated, why they assert that being outside is important for the animal's well-being?

My fear is that is an anthropomorphic projection ...which ranks it on a par with "animals do not belong in zoos, they should be free."

Am I wrong?

Why bother providing a wasted outdoor space then?

Why do doctors say that we need to get out and about? Exercise maybe or am I just simplifying this situation.

Yes if they could provide a suitable indoor space then great, but I have seen Jaguars that prefer the outdoor enclosure than there indoor one, Bonobo's that like their barren outdoor enclosure more than even more barren inside accommodation.

Indoor accommodation can be too sterile, it’s good for all animals to be in context with unsterile environments, to continue to have a healthy immune system.

 

[Zooplantman]

Why bother providing a wasted outdoor space then?

Why do doctors say that we need to get out and about? Exercise maybe or am I just simplifying this situation.

Yes if they could provide a suitable indoor space then great, but I have seen Jaguars that prefer the outdoor enclosure than there indoor one, Bonobo's that like their barren outdoor enclosure more than even more barren inside accommodation.

Indoor accommodation can be too sterile, it’s good for all animals to be in context with unsterile environments, to continue to have a healthy immune system.

My whole career is about creating natural green living spaces for animals (and one of my intentions with Congo was to give the gorillas plants they could mangle as well as ones to leave alone - I like animals to be who they are and to do what they need to do), so I don't want them inside....but IF they prefer it and IF they are fully healthy and IF they are breeding well and IF they have good longevity...then why ought they to be outside?

After all, the comment about getting them outside came in response to a statement that the rhinos prefer their indoor space.

 

[taun]

After all, the comment about getting them outside came in response to a statement that the rhinos prefer their indoor space.

How many natural planted indoor area's have you seen for Rhino's then?

I feel its important that an animal can express natural behaviours even in an unatural setting but how can a rhino express any in a stall?

IF an animal can be provided everything indoors then great but I don't think this could ever be acheived.

Am not saying they should be outside, all am saying is that we should provide them with options.

 

[Zooplantman]

How many natural planted indoor area's have you seen for Rhino's then?

I feel its important that an animal can express natural behaviours even in an unatural setting but how can a rhino express any in a stall?

IF an animal can be provided everything indoors then great but I don't think this could ever be acheived.

Am not saying they should be outside, all am saying is that we should provide them with options.

Yes, taun, this I understand

 

[Yassa]

I strongly believe that boredom is the biggest problem with keeping wild animals in zoos, and to prevent them being bored, they need a stimulating environment that keeps their bodys and minds busy. Different smells and sounds, sun and rain, vegetation, ponds, climbing/hiding places ect. ect. I simply do not think indoor quarters can offer enough stimulation, because creating a complex habitat for larger animals indoors is difficult to impossible. If individuals don`t like to go outdoors, there can be many reasons, and I don`t think the conclusion that they don`t need larger outdoor areas is right. For example, the older tigers in Leipzig zoo don`t like the new outdoor enclosures because they`ve spent all their lives in small cages. The young animals have no problems with the new, much more spacious outdoor exhibits full of vegetation. Gorillas often don`t like their outdoor enclosures because they are too open. Does this mean gorillas don`t need outdoor areas? Hell no, it just means the enclosures need to be better equipped to their needs.

 

[BlackRhino]

I NEVER said animals don't need an outdoor enclosure, I am just saying as a generalization that probably 70% of zoo animals prefer their indoor sterile holdings to their outdoors. I also know that it is a pain in the neck to get our female rhino to go out into the exhibit from her indoor stall. Her daughters go out no problem, but she doesn't like going outside. I am not sure whether the Gorillas at Congo prefer in or out, but the outdoor exhibit they have is not wide open. Its very dense with plants, climbing trees, etc. as all of you can see in the photo gallery. It also has a full canopy.

 

[Arizona Docent]

What is the best? Im not talking about some wildlife park, I mean a zoo.

My favorites actually are a couple wildlife parks, so if we exclude them and stick with traditional zoos, Bronx moves up higher. Since I have not been since Tiger Mountain and Madagascar opened, I will hold off on rating. Perhaps if I went back now and we didn't count wildlife parks, then Bronx might move up into the #1 position for me. (If they opened a few new small cat exhibits, that would close the deal! )

 

[redpanda]

I NEVER said animals don't need an outdoor enclosure, I am just saying as a generalization that probably 70% of zoo animals prefer their indoor sterile holdings to their outdoors. I also know that it is a pain in the neck to get our female rhino to go out into the exhibit from her indoor stall. Her daughters go out no problem, but she doesn't like going outside. I am not sure whether the Gorillas at Congo prefer in or out, but the outdoor exhibit they have is not wide open. Its very dense with plants, climbing trees, etc. as all of you can see in the photo gallery. It also has a full canopy.

Sorry, but vast genaralisations and anecdotal experiences neither convince me or are very helpful for this discussion. Yes, animals will want to spend some of their time in holding areas (that's why they're there), but to say that the majority of animals prefer what are generally sterile and unenriching environments suggests either that the enclosures at Cleveland are unsuitable for their inhabitants and offer a lack of privacy or that you are basing this on an old rhino and the testimonies of a couple of keepers. As I said, I am unconvinced especially having read replies by proffesionals who disagree you.

 

[tigertiger]

My favorites actually are a couple wildlife parks, so if we exclude them and stick with traditional zoos, Bronx moves up higher. Since I have not been since Tiger Mountain and Madagascar opened, I will hold off on rating. Perhaps if I went back now and we didn't count wildlife parks, then Bronx might move up into the #1 position for me. (If they opened a few new small cat exhibits, that would close the deal! )

I'd agree!

 

[mweb08]

Well I'm going to try to go there on friday, so I'll give my opinion after that.

 

[cwenwyn]

I think the important part, as Taun mentioned, is options. Most humans prefer a house with a yard but spend most of their time inside. (Yes, I know I'm anthropomorphizing...) We are disturbed when the houses are close and the yards non-existent (i.e. apartment living) and long for the yard, whether or not we use it. If we were confined to the rooms we live in, however nicely furnished or equipped, and lived and worked there, the majority of us would go stir crazy. We must get OUT! To the yard, or the park, or the store or someplace.

I like it when zoo animals can be offered indoor or outdoor the majority of the time. The more options we can give them for control over their own selves, especially in the higher intelligence species, the better. I personally believe gorillas are higher evolved than homo spaiens, but that's a conversation for another day.

 

[mweb08]

Well I went today, the Gorilla exhibit is tremendous! However, I have no clue what the indoor holding area is like, same for the other animals. That is a problem with northern zoo's, and I do wonder if it should be considered when ranking exhibits, and if so, how much? I think I'll actually start a thread on this topic.