Melbourne Zoo Melbourne Zoo Developments

[patrick]

O.K. Patrick, so we agree that the hamadryas baboon enclosure is an eyesore, and that the mandrill enclosure is good (yery good, in fact), but let's not ship everything out to the backblocks just yet. When you say that the baboons are underappreciated I assume you mean by zoo authorities - they certainly are appreciated by the public any time I've been there, although THAT enclosure certainly cops it's share of criticism.

backblocks? see, i wouldn't call werribee the backblocks. nor do i think its necessry to have two baboon species at melbourne, especially when the larger group of the two is housed in a substandard enclosure. and i disagree that they are appreciated by the public. the enclosure smells bad, the feaces is obvious due to the concrete floor, it has very little height to it and rusted wire front. its unattractive and its suitability for the animals is (whilst in my opinion, lousy) irrelevant. its an eyesore to the public and moving them should have been a long standing priority.

if the baboons left for werribee they would

a) provide a new, much needed attraction at the park

b) be afforded the space to be housed in a manner that would give them maximum appreciation value. baboons work best when you can see troop dynamics clearly. this isn't so obvious in small cages.

c) remove the need to create a large space consuming exhibit at melbourne is better focusing on other expansion of existing precincts in which the baboons do not fit in thematically.

d) free up those baboon cages to temporaily house species that would be more suitable. with all the development going on, the ability to "shuffle" species is very important. if the concrete is jacked-up and the cages planted out, they could easily suit small cats or smaller primate species short term.

of course, it means setting aside money, and there are three other species living in unsuitable enclosures in melbourne in my opinion... bears (to be phased out), batchelor gorillas and seals (to be addressed shortly).

 

[Pertinax]

baboons work best when you can see troop dynamics clearly. this isn't so obvious in small cages.

there are three other species living in unsuitable enclosures in melbourne in my opinion... bears (to be phased out), batchelor gorillas and seals (to be addressed shortly).

1. Absolutely correct. Best if the troop is 50 plus in size and with a ratio of one adult male per 2/3 females, each then has its own little harem. You then get the full range of behaviours for the species.

2. If the baboons were to stay in Melbourne, both the Ape Grottoes or the Bear enclosure would make admirable homes for a large troop, if they were first landscaped for this species. Possibly the Ape Grotto area would lend itself the best as it already looks like a plateau on a mountainside...

3. Couldn't they build a much smaller version of the Gorilla enclosure, for the three batchelors? It would be far more suitable for them longterm than the old Ape grottoes.

 

[Pertinax]

very few in britain, only paignton and south lakes

Also at Flamingo Park, a moated enclosure, a bit scruffy.
Of the three UK ones, only Paignton is what I class as a good exhibit though. My only critisism there is you can't get near enough to the wall to look over or just lean on it to watch them. I know that's done for safety reasons though. The best ones are probably still in Europe.

(That Primate sanctuary in Wales almost has a colony too, I believe)

 

[kiang]

of course flamingo park, i think that primate sanctuary has a group of olive baboons from a zoo in portugal, i believe the males in that group are being castrated.

 

[Coquinguy]

melbourne zoo's baboon enclosure is a real sticking point on this forum isnt it? get rid of them to weribee for all the reasons Pat said, and one more crucial reason! the baboon enclosure is the worst enclosure of any Australian zoo in one of the best Australian zoos Ive ever seen.
it gives people a bad impression, a very bad impression and takes up space in a zoo that isnt escatly overwhelmed by lots of space.
with Melbourne increasingly focusing on forest species relocating the baboon to Weribee would be a wise decision, and a new enclosure would assure this species long-term regional viabilty.

 

[kiang]

does anyone have a picture of this enclosure to let us all judge.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

There's still a number of Hamadryas baboon colonies in European Zoos(e.g. Cologne, Artis, Munich(?) Paignton etc) too. Despite the move toward endangered species and conservation, zoos that have them know they are a very good exhibit. I've always enjoyed them, for one.

Artis don't. They keep Japanese macaque on a primate rock.

 

[Pertinax]

of course flamingo park, i think that primate sanctuary has a group of olive baboons from a zoo in portugal, i believe the males in that group are being castrated.

They've got quite a few Hamadryas too- some came from Causeway Safari Park in Ireland where they were just abandoned when it closed. Other single ones were rescued from dreadful tiny cages in places like Lebanon and the middle East. I think they have a simple island for some of them to live on as a group (or in pairs), but presumably with some sort of birth control in force.

 

[Pertinax]

Artis don't. They keep Japanese macaque on a primate rock.

I stand corrected... When I visited I saw a primate rock but I have the wrong species...

Can you name me the European Zoos you know of that still keep Hamadryas baboon groups nowadays?

 

[Pertinax]

the baboon enclosure is the worst enclosure of any Australian zoo in one of the best Australian zoos Ive ever seen.

Agree.. and Agree.

I was amazed to see it was still there on my last visit to Melb. and that was about fifteen years ago now! What I don't understand is that this isn't a major enclosure so to remove it(and rehouse the occupants somewhere elswe) isn't a major undertaking - like the new Orangutan or Elephant complex. It seems odd Melbourne didn't make it a priority years ago to do something about this cage (irrespective of what species live in it).

 

[Pertinax]

does anyone have a picture of this enclosure to let us all judge.

Its just a grotty concrete and mesh affair- the type of thing that was common in UK zoos up until the 1960's say.

 

[patrick]

thats a very good point about one of the worst enclosures in one of the best zoos. i agree.

Couldn't they build a much smaller version of the Gorilla enclosure, for the three batchelors? It would be far more suitable for them longterm than the old Ape grottoes.

actually whilst the ape grottoes themselves are not at all appropriate for gorillas nowdays, the site itself is ideal beause the inside quarters are as far as i know part of the same building as the night quarters for the main gorilla troop. no doubt there is probably a need to renovate some of this night den areas also, but for gorilla management it would be good if both troops are maintained in the one building.

so, despite is ideal design for baboons at present, long term the site is very valuable as a location for a batchelor group - which is going to become a permanent feature of melbournes gorilla management approach.

i suspect the reason why the zoo has delayed in rehousing the baboons, is much the same as it is for so many animals with lame enclosures. if the zoos is going to do it, they want to do it right and thus the new exhibit becomes a rather grandiose plan costing millions that need to be raised.

 

[Zoo_Boy]

uploading pic of babbons now!

 

[jay]

Pat, is it possible to view the bachelor gorillas or do they still have that path blocked off?

 

[Coquinguy]

the closest comparison i can make is the old row of cages at london near the komodo house where the macaws, lemurs and coati live, except its completely concreted unlike Londons

 

[Pertinax]

so, despite is ideal design for baboons at present, long term the site is very valuable as a location for a batchelor group - which is going to become a permanent feature of melbournes gorilla management approach.

Yes, I imagine upgrading the ape Grottoes is now not a priority. Is made more difficult by the fact its now already occupied by 3 Gorillas. I suppose they could still refurbish them by doing one grotto at a time and then knock down the dividing walls afterwards ?.

Looking ahead, What they really need is a similar but smaller area to the main group. But, of course,they will probably just stay in the grottoes longterm as its a ready-made home and the dens connect with the rest of the accomodation.

 

[kiang]

zooboy seen the pic very bare and open, not nice

 

[patrick]

Yes, I imagine upgrading the ape Grottoes is now not a priority.

actually, i was just saying that although it is a highly suitable substitute for the baboons, it is far too valuable in terms of its location for gorillas long-term and thus although the cirrent enclosure is ideal for the baboons, it will never be utilised by them.

i actually hope very much that the zoo does make a refurb of the grottoes a priority. its very unsuitable for gorillas as there are some safely issues with such deep moats. fill those in and they could easily create a second, smaller "rainforest" exhibit there albeit maybe not as fantastic as the existing one. though a smart move would probably be to divide the grottoes into two outdoor exhibits, thus taking into account any future management issues such as two males not getting along or even a second breeding group.

 

[Pertinax]

.

i actually hope very much that the zoo does make a refurb of the grottoes a priority. its very unsuitable for gorillas as there are some safely issues with such deep moats. fill those in and they could easily create a second, smaller "rainforest" exhibit there

Yes, I didn't make it very clear what I was saying. I accept the baboons won't ever use the Grottoes now the Gorilla males are installed in them.

As you said, I too hope they refurbish them. It could be done 'one by one' with the resident gorillas using whichever enclosure was not being worked on. I'd like to see the moats infilled, the rockwork reduced and perhaps a glass viewing wall around where there is public access (still leaving the back area for the gorillas to retreat if they want) It would be simple to then plant out the level areas with trees, resistant shrubs and bamboo and it would then make a half-decent exhibit for the male group.

I think keeping at least one dividing wall(maybe both?) is important to allow the possiblity of having to seperate them when the two boys become silverbacks. They may find they have one, or even three solitary gorillas again (at Port Lympne they have had problems with the silverback batchelors with fighting- one or two have to be separated permanently nowadays)

 

[patrick]

agree. one you fill in the moats all your left with is a long rockwall concealing the night dens behind it. there are so many possibilities. mesh, similar to the orangutan #1 exhibit at melbourne, fill the moats with water, similar to the taronga exhibit or build high walls similar to tarongas chimp or orang exhibit.

its acyually a bit of a creative challange as i see it and could eventually be an awesome exhibit. especially if that red "mock rock" work got a facelift.