Zion Wildlife Gardens Craig Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens

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As usual you post the same links , the same documents and reports. We have all read them ,I can assure you, but after this sorry mess is over I think that the new ones will make a much more interesting and fantastic read![/QUOTE]


And as usual Crazy-cat you can come up with nothing but the same line and have nothing to back up your statements with.. The difference is I back up my statements with the proof. Have you read the High Court Judgement Summary? Fascinating read isn't it.:D
 
Having read the MAF de-clawing report I'm left wondering about the competance of the MAF officials in this case and that of the veterinarians involved.

But here is ********** reasons for justifying the de-clawing of the cats

" * Protecting the trees in the enclosures (erm secondary fencing / hotwire, or accepting the fact that there is inevitable damage to some foliage in enclosures!!
You wouldn't cut your kids hands off to prevent them from drawing on your wall paper would you?? this sounds drastic but the long term psychological effects are the same, they are maimed for life!)

* enhancing the animals environment by permitting interaction with him. ( bigger better enclosures with adequate space, feeding regimes and enrichment would be much better)

* permitting interaction with the public on interactive tours (leaving the public with an unforgetable feeling of a close encounter without having to tell them you have had major surgery carried out on the cat so that they can be part of the interaction leaving it maimed for life)

* limiting the ability of the animals to do damage to each other in the enclosure (again bigger enclosures would suffice, but in over 10 years experience with big cats there was only 1 injury caused to a cat by a cat that required surgery ( a ripped lip) and even that didn't leave a scar)

* limiting the ability of the animals to do damage to each other when traveling for promotional purposes (erm basic crate training and seperate traveling crates!!)

And from a DR XXXXXXXXXXX

* He knew other felids at the zoo had been declawed without adverse publicity or comment (so that makes it ok..how??)

* there was no known MAF view and no opposistion or objection from MAF (and MAF never thought to ask the established zoos in NZ about this or even do there home work!)

* The declawing of Gandor and shakira was done by him whilst under quarantine with MAF contracted veterinarian present (and neither of them questioned it!!! SHAME!)

* No adverse effects appeared to exist with injuries healing quickly and no complications arising (other then the cat ver being able to sharpen its claws on a log etc ever again, or being able to eat properly again as it cannot pin the meat down using its claws)

* XXXXX and he both opposed regular sedation and saw declawing as a better option for the animals (unless required for major surgery most cats are knocked out yearly for routine health checks, and even this is evolving with animal training for husbandry purposes)

* The animals were being used commercially to permit the financial survival of the zoo (so how do the thousands of other zoos in the world manage??)

* Close contact with handlers & film crew was required and personale safety was an issue ( a) these animals are meant to be trained b) what about blue screens to limit access to the set / film crew )

* Commercial drivers enhanced the zoos enclosures and the overall animal environment (obviously this wasn't picked up over all the series of lion man then)

* Money was needed by the zoo to improve the zoo and animal conditions (in the old days this was done with chimps tea parties, elephant rides and parrots on bikes, they weren't right and neither is declawing!)

* Declawing permitted close interaction for handlers and facilitated veterinary treatment (declawing did not remove the animals strength, weight and canine teeth which ended in an inevitable tragedy that could have been easily avoided by not being in with the cat in the first place!)

* The animals enjoy the close interaction with operators and handlers permitted by declawing ( more then sufficient footage exists to dispute this claim)

* declawing permitted regular contact with animals which assisted operator and veterinarian safety ( how neccesary was this 'close contact' from a veterinary point of viewand what research has it provided?? and other then looking good for the camera how has the 'lion man' educated his audience to the threats to the survival of the remaing susb-species of lions, tigers and other big cats held at zion park?)
 
Easytigger, i agree with you that you wouldn't cut your childrens hands off to stop them drawing on the wallpaper, in a similar vein i was given two cats, who weren't really wanted in their previous home, despite going out and buying a really expensive scratch post activity centre, one of the lil buggas still persists on trying to shred my bedroom carpet :eek: its not even something i would consider, its a bad habit, along with purring like a 747 in my earhole while i'm trying to sleep that i deal with as its part of him.

It amazes me, and i'm not having a pop at anyone, but the effects of the declawing have been trivialised by many of his fans, due to a press released statement from him, and some have even questioned whether its all a lie, there is a part in there where it talks about the declawing of gandor and shakira, its been a while since i read it, however i believe theres a part in it that states he was filming round about the time they were declawed and didn't want it made public because he knew it was a sensitive subject! that speaks volumes to me, to endevour to undertake that level of surgery surely must have taken some thought and research, if he had, he would have known what it involved! i guess we have to ask ourselves was it really so important to have human interaction with these cats at the expense of their future health?
 
One thing about it the Vet MAf consulted on declawing and declawing outcomes had cited gait issues and long term arthritic problems as the animals aged. And the it should be immediately curtailed (page 2 if anyone is wondering) All were answerable for those procedures being done. But the one who asked for them to be done is just as responsible. What is sad is the animals have to live with that for the rest of their lives. That is unfortunate:(
 
phoenix said:
You know you're a Bogan if .....you know the lyrics to cold chisels kay san (and shout them at teh top of your lungs at the pub)
Click to expand...

You know you're a Bogan if you can't spell Khe Sanh.....


:p

Hix
 
I wonder if Peter Dickinson would be kind enough to inform us of what his qualifications are please ?
Thank you in advance.
 
Hi

I wonder if you could help me clear something up, ive been reading a lot on this forum about the white tigers and lions not being of any conservational use.

I understand why the white tigers would'nt be as from everything ive read they are not naturally accuring in the wild, but what about white Lions?

Thank you.
 
Lola said:
Hi

I wonder if you could help me clear something up, ive been reading a lot on this forum about the white tigers and lions not being of any conservational use.

I understand why the white tigers would'nt be as from everything ive read they are not naturally accuring in the wild, but what about white Lions?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

White tigers are naturally occuring, however none have been observed in the wild since the 1960's. The problem with them is that they are horribly cross- and in-bred.

In the UK at least, white lions are actually the only pure-bred lions and therefore of great conservational value. However, breeding them simply for the white gene is pointless and serves no conservational purpose.

I hope this answers your question and welcome to the site.
 
crazy-cat said:
I wonder if Peter Dickinson would be kind enough to inform us of what his qualifications are please ?
Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

Hello Crazy-cat. I note that you have stillfailed to answer the questions I asked of you. However if you want to know about me then do a google search as "peter dickinson"+zoo I think you will find enough there.
 
Peter Dickinson said:
Hello Crazy-cat. I note that you have stillfailed to answer the questions I asked of you. However if you want to know about me then do a google search as "peter dickinson"+zoo I think you will find enough there.
Click to expand...

Definitely Peter. :) There is plenty there with that search tag. Hope you've been having a great day. Thoroughly enjoy your articles very comprehensive, informative and well referenced. My middle daughter has been soaking it all up like a sponge. Determined kid wants to be a wildlife vet. Great ambition and she's well on her way few years yet to university..
 
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redpanda said:
White tigers are naturally occuring, however none have been observed in the wild since the 1960's. The problem with them is that they are horribly cross- and in-bred.

In the UK at least, white lions are actually the only pure-bred lions and therefore of great conservational value. However, breeding them simply for the white gene is pointless and serves no conservational purpose.
Click to expand...

the gene does exist in the wild in both species - however its a disadvantageous gene. animals displaying the white coat have a higher mortality rate than normal coloured cats. this is proven by the fact that in neither cases the coat type has become established in the general population (compare to melanism in jaguars and leopards. this is advantageous and thus has naturally become established). putting the ethics of severe inbreeding aside, what captive breeding of white cats does it does, is it add a disproportionately large number of animals carrying white gene into the general population, thus somewhat compromising the populations ability to survive in the wild should they ever be introduced.

fortunately virtually all white tigers are subspecies hybrids. and so they have now been excluded from bengal breeding programs. however white lions are, as you said, a purebred african lion. the danger is that those white lions be considered part of the coordinated breeding program for african lions.

i've given up on the idea of wiping out the mutation in captivity. i accept that some individuals will want to maintain white cats. but any mixing of bloodlines should be a one way street. non-mutation tawny lions can top up the genetics of white lions, but it should not happen the other way round.
 
phoenix said:
the gene does exist in the wild in both species - however its a disadvantageous gene. animals displaying the white coat have a higher mortality rate than normal coloured cats. this is proven by the fact that in neither cases the coat type has become established in the general population (compare to melanism in jaguars and leopards. this is advantageous and thus has naturally become established). putting the ethics of severe inbreeding aside, what captive breeding of white cats does it does, is it add a disproportionately large number of animals carrying white gene into the general population, thus somewhat compromising the populations ability to survive in the wild should they ever be introduced.

fortunately virtually all white tigers are subspecies hybrids. and so they have now been excluded from bengal breeding programs. however white lions are, as you said, a purebred african lion. the danger is that those white lions be considered part of the coordinated breeding program for african lions.

i've given up on the idea of wiping out the mutation in captivity. i accept that some individuals will want to maintain white cats. but any mixing of bloodlines should be a one way street. non-mutation tawny lions can top up the genetics of white lions, but it should not happen the other way round.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phoenix I found that very informative and helpful as well.:)
 
Peter Dickinson said:
Hello Crazy-cat. I note that you have stillfailed to answer the questions I asked of you. However if you want to know about me then do a google search as "peter dickinson"+zoo I think you will find enough there.
Click to expand...

Thank you , I will do a google search for this information .
 
Phoenix,

I'm just throwing this out there for you to consider. I have no proof, just an hypothesis I'm toying with.

Recent studies seem to indicate that P.t.amoyensis was the first tiger, evolving two million years ago in eastern China and then populations migrated north, south and west through various routes, where they persisted through many pleistocene glaciation events.

It is also beleived that geneflow between populations has existed until fairly recent times.

My hypothesis - actually, supposition is probably a better word - is that the original tigers were white (advantageous in a snowy habitat like China, and especially during glaciation events). At some point a mutant gene occured producing orange tigers, which were better adapted to the warmer regions. Between glaciations, the orange gene flowed between different tiger populations and during these warmer times the orange tigers predominated as they were better suited to the environments at that time. During glaciations the white tigers were prevalent. Essentially, tigers alternated between orange and white in the same way the Peppered Moth in the UK went from pale to dark, it's just the tigers do it over a much larger time scale.

If my supposition is correct, I would expect to find white tigers in wild populations of the other subspecies. Logically there would be a higher frequency of them in the Amur population. The reason none have been seen may be because the population of that subspecies is so low that the gene is unable to express itself (or is already extinct in the altaica genome).

At this point, I don't believe my idea can be proved.

:p

Hix
 
Hix said:
Phoenix,

I'm just throwing this out there for you to consider. I have no proof, just an hypothesis I'm toying with.

Recent studies seem to indicate that P.t.amoyensis was the first tiger, evolving two million years ago in eastern China and then populations migrated north, south and west through various routes, where they persisted through many pleistocene glaciation events.

It is also beleived that geneflow between populations has existed until fairly recent times.

My hypothesis - actually, supposition is probably a better word - is that the original tigers were white (advantageous in a snowy habitat like China, and especially during glaciation events). At some point a mutant gene occured producing orange tigers, which were better adapted to the warmer regions. Between glaciations, the orange gene flowed between different tiger populations and during these warmer times the orange tigers predominated as they were better suited to the environments at that time. During glaciations the white tigers were prevalent. Essentially, tigers alternated between orange and white in the same way the Peppered Moth in the UK went from pale to dark, it's just the tigers do it over a much larger time scale.

If my supposition is correct, I would expect to find white tigers in wild populations of the other subspecies. Logically there would be a higher frequency of them in the Amur population. The reason none have been seen may be because the population of that subspecies is so low that the gene is unable to express itself (or is already extinct in the altaica genome).

At this point, I don't believe my idea can be proved.

:p

Hix
Click to expand...

Interesting supposition. My thoughts would be that I have never heard of historical accounts of white Amurs (when they were more plentiful) and, strangely, predominantly white cat species are pretty thin on the ground. I can only think of snow leopards, and they are really blue-grey rather than white. Odd though when you take into context mainly white species of other carnivore groups: northern subspecies of wolves, arctic foxes, stoats and polar bears.

Maybe it is due to the fact that cats are mostly solitary hunters (thus by stealth) and do not tend to stay only in snowy habitats (ie. a mottled coat is better for broken forest).
 
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