San Diego Zoo San Diego Zoo News 2009

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State your sources, please.
 
All of the hoovestock that was dispositioned went to reputable breeders. Almost all of the breeding of endangered hoovestock has been occuring at these private facilities, not in zoos.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information but San Diego isn't selling their collection. They are dispositioning animals to give them the opportunity to breed elsewhere. And unfortunately most of the species you mentioned are being phased out of US zoos, but many still exist in the private sector. Do not jump to conclusions when you do not possess all the facts.
 
Safari Park said:
Does anyone else think its strange that San Diego has sent out nearly all of their rare species that other zoos dont have an interest in and simply gave them away to dealers and private facilities.
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Couldn't they just have sent all of those species to the Wild Animal Park
 
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Safari Park, without going over whether 100% of your info is correct or not, the bulk of what you stated is correct.
Mostly done to make way for what is now Elephant Odyssey, (in my opinion one of the worse modern zoo exihibits of all times), but you will not get many supporters in this forum, especially the americans, they do not believe in stamp collections, or rare species, and are content with large spaces for the animals, they are more of a peta group or animal rights enthusiasts than real zoo fans.
I consider myself a zoo fan, and do understand your point and agree with you on the species downsizing being a horrible thing, and what is even more important for what? to make way for the insult that is EO.
 
One perfect example of this is Berlin Zoo, they fight until the last animal species, and do not give any rare or last animals to anybody for any reason, (few exeptions) but what do they get in return, negative comments from the Peta bulk of Zoochat, a bulk that increases every day.
 
Animal welfare and captive breeding for the purpose of saving endangered (or "rare", as you say) species will always be more important than cramming as many different varieties of animals into one zoo as possible.
 
Miniaturezoo954 said:
One perfect example of this is Berlin Zoo, they fight until the last animal species, and do not give any rare or last animals to anybody for any reason, (few exeptions) but what do they get in return, negative comments from the Peta bulk of Zoochat, a bulk that increases every day.
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So you're saying it's better to let an entire species die off than to try and save it?
 
Miniaturezoo954 said:
Safari Park, without going over whether 100% of your info is correct or not, the bulk of what you stated is correct.
Mostly done to make way for what is now Elephant Odyssey, (in my opinion one of the worse modern zoo exihibits of all times), but you will not get many supporters in this forum, especially the americans, they do not believe in stamp collections, or rare species, and are content with large spaces for the animals, they are more of a peta group or animal rights enthusiasts than real zoo fans.
I consider myself a zoo fan, and do understand your point and agree with you on the species downsizing being a horrible thing, and what is even more important for what? to make way for the insult that is EO.
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I fear that you are living in the world of a century ago, where conservation did not exist and zoos were purely for the public to marvel at the curiosities of nature. Yes, EO may not be very imressive, but I would imagine it is far more popular with visitors then the old Horn and Hoof Mesa. And, in the end, zoos need to get visitors through the turn-styles and make money, without it they wouldn't exist. It is worth pointing out that whilst San Diego is able to open a new mega exhibit (although, I agree, EO stretches this definition) whilst Berlin is practically broke. And to say the majority of zoochatters are members of PETA is simply ridiculous, we are all interested in zoos and the vast majority of us believe they can have great benefits if certain conditions are met - on the contrary, you seem to be the one who wants zoos closed down.

In regards to San Diego's shady dealings, there was a great scandal back in the nineties (I think) where three major American zoos, San Diego being one of them, were caught selling their animals to private individuals. However, I'm pretty sure this practice has now stopped.
 
redpanda said:
In regards to San Diego's shady dealings, there was a great scandal back in the nineties (I think) where three major American zoos, San Diego being one of them, were caught selling their animals to private individuals. However, I'm pretty sure this practice has now stopped.
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The issue never was zoos selling animals to private individuals. This happens all of the time. This still happens, and really isn't a big deal. The issue was selling them to dealers who then sold them to hunting ranches. This is the practice that has supposedly stopped.
 
Well i seemed have hit a sensitive spot to a few people. To answer some of you questions "djaeon" my sources are 30 years working in the animal business, hauling animals and knowing what actually happens to everything. I don't like to toot my own horn but i know alittle bit about the zoo world and hoofstock in my specialty. I know the who, how, where, and why about pretty much every species in private and public domains. To your other comment i don't think every zoo should have a huge diversity in their collections but different zoos should have different animals. Talk to any curator who has been in the zoo business for 20-30+ years and they get sick about losing the diversity. Really look at the hoofstock collections in major zoos and everyone is basically the same. If your a curator or director you know exactly what i'm talking about.

To your comment "columbuszoo001", i've got all the facts friend i'm dealing with hoofstock every single day no exceptions. I'm on the phone 4-6 hours a day talking with dealers, breeders, parks, zoos, you name it for all sorts of information. Veterinary questions, tranquilization info for different species, hauling animals, moving animals you name it. I never said they were selling their collection....there giving it away. So all those animals they have sent out are still in the private sector and breeding. Just to inform you that is not the case. Try looking for tur, blesbok, beisa oryx, congo buffalo, hartebeest, indian muntjac, dorcas gazelles, hog deer, chinese water deer, etc. These are all animals that have been in large numbers in the zoos then all sent to the private sector....well they are all gone. I could go on forever but it would be like writing a book.

"Ituri" the hunting sector is alive and well. You think the dealers who are getting hoofstock would turn down a hunting ranch dealer if they offered top price and kept their mouth shut. They really can't get caught. If a dealer comes to them, tranquilizes, takes it to a hunting ranch, client shoots it, then mounts it how could they get caught? Well there really is no way. The dealers that got caught in the 90's took them to animal auctions and they is all kinds of proof to show then. Well all the dealers are back in their circles and they stay well away from the auctions. Now they simply sell to one of their "buddies" who then takes them to the auction if they really want to get rid of them and they can't get in trouble.
 
"djaeon"
"So you're saying it's better to let an entire species die off than to try and save it?"

That is not what i'm saying at all, but that is how some members in this forum make it out to be, why can there be a middle area? everything can't be black and white, San Diego Zoo has done incredible things when it comes to the conservation of many species granted, so has Berlin, Antwerp and many other zoos that try to display as many species as possible.
Conservation will allways be there in any modern zoo, if no it would be a means to an end, i understand this very well.

But my point was, not every zoo has to be following the same goals, and San Diego seems to be heading in the direction of every other US Zoo, it used to be the one Zoo that followed a different path showcasing a very large number of species, but my fears are that in the very near future this will be no longer, and i think EO is a fine example.


"redpanda"

Actually redpanda i think you are the one living not one, but two century's ago, what sets a zoo apart from another in today's modern world is not only the incredible exhibit it creates, but the animal species that it can show, just look at the giant pandas, and what they have done for certain zoos. There is lot more that factors in Berlin's lack of funds than poor attendance (this one is not a factor, get your facts right)
Maybe you should bring your progressive mind and visions to your capital's zoo (London Zoo) they seem to be having the living in the last century problem as well, mind you is not because of a very large number of species, but very little good taste
 
Futhermore i still believe San Diego Zoo is one of the finest in North America, and still has the most impressive collection together with the WAP, but as Safari Park points out, sending away their core hoofstock collection at the zoo, mainly species you could not find in any other US zoo is close to being a criminal offence, and once again it all comes down to what you have to show for:

If let's say today the area that currently was Horn and Hoof Mesa, was a state of the art, atractive elephant exhibit, and maybe a couple of other mixed species exihibits areas (An Australian and Andean zone to start), maybe there could be some justice here, but as it stands, it is just a big massive time machine in the zoo, they should take the metal trees and send them back packing.
 
Ituri, I saw the ornate hawk eagles and they are gorgeous, yes they are in one of the Raptors exhibits on the edge of Lost Forest, although I am not sure what they replaced. One of them was perched right near the front, and its crest was swept back in a point not unlike some cockatoos have!

I think you saw my 'new map' post, but if not, Urban Jungle former rhino exhibit space has a Sicilian donkey in one half and flamingos in the other. Someone else commented that the whole zone seems to be transforming into a contact area for the Backstage Pass tour, I know one of the features of which is scratching an Indian rhino with brooms and they are held in the former elephant exhibit. By the way, the giant anteater exhibit nearby is still occupied and the baby is BIG and still riding on mom, its hilarious.
 
Thanks for the update of the hawk-eagles. I'm pretty sure they replaced the lammergiers, because I think the Steller's sea-eagles, harpy eagles, and Andean condors are all still there right?

Yeah, in the new map thread I posted a link to a Zoo Blog about the donkey. I think the former cat enclosures on Elurbiphant Mejungsa might also now be used to hold Backstage Pass animals. Do you recall what species of flamingo?
 
Safari Park said:
To your comment "columbuszoo001", i've got all the facts friend i'm dealing with hoofstock every single day no exceptions. I'm on the phone 4-6 hours a day talking with dealers, breeders, parks, zoos, you name it for all sorts of information. Veterinary questions, tranquilization info for different species, hauling animals, moving animals you name it. I never said they were selling their collection....there giving it away. So all those animals they have sent out are still in the private sector and breeding. Just to inform you that is not the case. Try looking for tur, blesbok, beisa oryx, congo buffalo, hartebeest, indian muntjac, dorcas gazelles, hog deer, chinese water deer, etc. These are all animals that have been in large numbers in the zoos then all sent to the private sector....well they are all gone. I could go on forever but it would be like writing a book.
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I do not doubt your credentials but many species are doing very well in the private sector, among them: muntjac, asian deer, and oryx. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I believe you should research the population demoraphics more because like I said some species are doing quite wonderfully in the private sector.
 
Ituri said:
The issue never was zoos selling animals to private individuals. This happens all of the time. This still happens, and really isn't a big deal. The issue was selling them to dealers who then sold them to hunting ranches. This is the practice that has supposedly stopped.
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Yes that's what I meant, thanks for specifying it.

Miniaturezoo954 said:
"redpanda"

Actually redpanda i think you are the one living not one, but two century's ago, what sets a zoo apart from another in today's modern world is not only the incredible exhibit it creates, but the animal species that it can show, just look at the giant pandas, and what they have done for certain zoos. There is lot more that factors in Berlin's lack of funds than poor attendance (this one is not a factor, get your facts right)
Maybe you should bring your progressive mind and visions to your capital's zoo (London Zoo) they seem to be having the living in the last century problem as well, mind you is not because of a very large number of species, but very little good taste
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So they had "incredible exhibit" two centuries ago - I think you will find they were barred cells or barren pits. What's that about getting facts right...

There may be other factors to Berlin's lack of funds (and I know that they have a reasonable attendance for a European zoo) but if they had modern (know what that is?) exhibitry I'm sure they would attract more and, not only that, but they wouldn't be financially crippled by however many thousand of animals they currently have to look after.

And you can insult London (and my intelligence) all you like, but your local Miami isn't exactly the peak of exhibit design (or diversity of species for that matter). And, what's more, I'd rather have a mediochre zoo with animals that are well looked after representing my country than one with javan rhino and giant panda in cages too small to stand up in.
 
Ituri, yes the other 3 raptors were still there.

I think the flamingos were Caribbean but can't remember...
 
Redpanda, there is no insult, and i do agree with you that MMZ is not the best example in zoo exhibit design, that is why i did not used it as one, you did.
My point is we need diversity of species in zoos, and we need zoos to be different from one another, if not you would end up with a chain of zoos all looking very similar.
In the case of San Diego Zoo they were doing really good before EO, sure the Horn and Hoof mesa needed to be updated like many other areas in the zoo, but the end result is much worse than what was there to begin with, and now you just end up with a great lesser number of species.
That is why i praise zoos like Berlin, that do things in their own way and update exhibits as they go, without feeling the pressure of i'm sure many minds like yours, i'm happy the way the zoo looks, and if they feel there is a need for updates in certain exhibits i'm sure that when the funds are available it would be done, and hopefully they find a way to keep as many species as possible.
And about the attack on London Zoo, do not take it personal, i think London is a fine city, gorgeous museum of Natural History, but as far as the zoo, for london they should have done 1000 times better than this, come on? it looks like a farm, even the entrance looks like a small town zoo. So it really was not about you, i just hoped London would have done better for a city of its magnitude.
 
Miniaturezoo954 said:
Redpanda, there is no insult, and i do agree with you that MMZ is not the best example in zoo exhibit design, that is why i did not used it as one, you did.
My point is we need diversity of species in zoos, and we need zoos to be different from one another, if not you would end up with a chain of zoos all looking very similar.
In the case of San Diego Zoo they were doing really good before EO, sure the Horn and Hoof mesa needed to be updated like many other areas in the zoo, but the end result is much worse than what was there to begin with, and now you just end up with a great lesser number of species.
That is why i praise zoos like Berlin, that do things in their own way and update exhibits as they go, without feeling the pressure of i'm sure many minds like yours, i'm happy the way the zoo looks, and if they feel there is a need for updates in certain exhibits i'm sure that when the funds are available it would be done, and hopefully they find a way to keep as many species as possible.
And about the attack on London Zoo, do not take it personal, i think London is a fine city, gorgeous museum of Natural History, but as far as the zoo, for london they should have done 1000 times better than this, come on? it looks like a farm, even the entrance looks like a small town zoo. So it really was not about you, i just hoped London would have done better for a city of its magnitude.
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Apologies for taking some of what you said as an insult then. And, I brought MMZ into the argument as you said how bad London is when many of the big american zoos are not much better.

I agree we need diversity, and I am just as pleased as anyone else when I see a species for the first time. Today I went to Newquay Zoo and got my first look at Owston's Palm Civets which was an absolute joy. However, I don't agree that if every zoo had the same species list they would all be the same. I was almost as happy today when I saw Newquay's meerkat exhibit, as it is a large and well-landscaped enclosure with a variety of substrates and lots for the inhabitants to do - very different from all the others I have seen. I can's see how cramming in as many animals as possible is more important than that.

I do not take your dig at London as a personal insult - I have no emotional attachment to the place and have not been now for several years (next summer hopefully). I agree that the city should have a better zoo, however in my opinion this should be by having a few large species and the rest small and charismatic animals. If all of these are displayed well, the zoo could be excellent.

But as our opinions on what makes a good zoo are so very different, we shall have to agree to disagree.
 
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