ZooDoo Wildlife Park Yet more White Lions!
- Thread starter Nisha
- Start date
ZYBen
Well-Known Member
Not even Tawny and White?
truth is no zoo that houses white lions tells the truth that white lions are indeed an anomaly that have failed to establish themselves in the wild and that they instead breed them simply for aesthetics.
From this statement , I would assume that white lions occur naturally within a pride but do not survive ????
If this is the case surely we are brreding naturally occuring animals, who are we to then decide that a mutation/throwback should not be breed because it wouldnt survive in the wild.
I am sure there are plenty of ARAZPA approved parks out there that house a few albino specimens of birds and reptiles....how is this any different ?
I'm not sure I said that, but now you mention it maybe you can tell me what they can contribute, I am certainly struggling to figure that out. Maybe a lesson in genetics, but a few pens of budgies could cover that far more effectively.
I'm sure it is possible to use any animal in an educational context, but do we need to produce large numbers of animals expressing a rare recessive mutation for educational use?
Now I know I didn't say that. I've never seen a white lion, so I don't know if they are amusing or not. What I did say is that If you think that it is OK for zoos to be solely places of entertainment, with animals simply there as objects of amusement, then fine why not white lions? . And let me say if you want to argue that zoos should exist purely as places of entertainment you are perfectly entitled to do so.
White lions, white wallabies, two-headed snakes, any freak of nature, is sure to capture the attention of a section of the public. And I guess as far as they go we all like a good freak show. But at the end of the day that is all it is.
Have just read another post which stated that Weribee open range Zoo is breeding from a male who carries the white gene. His father was apparently a wild white.
Can anybody shed some light on this, I know the possibilities of white lions from this matting is rare, but..............
I thought Weribee were interested in conservation, obviousily I was mistaken from reading other peoples post regarding white lions.....
Can anybody shed some light on this, I know the possibilities of white lions from this matting is rare, but..............
I thought Weribee were interested in conservation, obviousily I was mistaken from reading other peoples post regarding white lions.....
It appears that there would be a small number of white lions existing in the wild at any one time. Reading the Wikipedia article (it that is reliable) the suggestion would be maybe 10 or 20.
If this is the case surely we are brreding naturally occuring animals, who are we to then decide that a mutation/throwback should not be breed because it wouldnt survive in the wild.
I am sure there are plenty of ARAZPA approved parks out there that house a few albino specimens of birds and reptiles....how is this any different ?
A lot fewer mutations than there used to be. And yes if one turns up in a litter, or an albino magpie gets handed in, no great harm. But what we are talking about is deliberately breeding animals with recessive genes to create a population of mutants. We would not deliberately breed to produce animals with say a club foot, why then a colour mutation?
A lion carrying the recessive white gene may also be carrying other genes important to the population. Unless it was mated to another lion with that gene no white cubs will result. If it so happens that the best suited lion to mate with also carries that gene, and a white cub is produced, that would be ok. But over the breadth of the program the number of white cubs produced would be very small, if any at all.
However if Werribee turned round and decided not to mate with the most suitable mate, but deliberately seek out other lions with the gene to produce white lions, then we have a problem.
and a white cub is produced, that would be ok.
You cant have it both ways, your previous comments have been very against.
What should be done with this white lion cub, Cull, desexing, keep off exhibit for ever........be made to ride a different bus, attend different school, swiming pools, bars etc.......all based on the naturally occuring colour of its fur ???
I understand your argument is against breeding for white cubs only, but as you stated they do naturally occur. Yes , they are a rareity, but aslong as they are managed correctly i can not understand why anyone would have an issue. You sepak of their non conservational value, zoos are filled with animals that are facing very little risk in the wild (Meerkats for example, yet every zoo has an abundance of them).
A zoos purpose is to conserve species and educate the public, if this is done by displaying white lions , then so be it.
You cant have it both ways, your previous comments have been very against.
What should be done with this white lion cub, Cull, desexing, keep off exhibit for ever........be made to ride a different bus, attend different school, swiming pools, bars etc.......all based on the naturally occuring colour of its fur ???
I understand your argument is against breeding for white cubs only, but as you stated they do naturally occur. Yes , they are a rareity, but aslong as they are managed correctly i can not understand why anyone would have an issue. You sepak of their non conservational value, zoos are filled with animals that are facing very little risk in the wild (Meerkats for example, yet every zoo has an abundance of them).
A zoos purpose is to conserve species and educate the public, if this is done by displaying white lions , then so be it.
their odds are significantly less as the white coat likely offers a disadvantage when it comes to hunting. sometimes some animals survive in the wild to adulthood, but largely the mutation persists in the wild population as animals that carry the gene, yet do not display it (ie; have natural tawny colouration) are not disadvantaged and they pass the gene on.
yes. but ther eis nothing natural about what we are doing. instead all we are achieving is skewing the captive population of african lions to have a far greater percentage of white lions. in the wild the gene is naturally, slowly going extinct through natural selection. in captivity, its on the rise.
who are we? well hopefully we are smart people who realise that polluting the global captive lion population with a defect is not a smart thing to do. since the odds of a white cub surviving in the wild is lower than that of a regular lion, we are effectively breeding-in a higher than natural mortality rate into our lion gene pool. its worth remembering that this gene is unique to one small wild population of african lions and even there its rare. there are now four zoos in australasia with white lions and i suspect from some of the staunch arguments around here that might soon be five.
i'm not saying cull all white lions. i'm saying overall, their propagation on-mass should be discouraged. because it inevitably ends up becoming mixed with the regular lion genepool. whats happening at werribee right now is a case in point.
its actually no different from the issue that faces so many birds in aviculture. mutations are so common and propagated and crossed into the general population so carelessly, that finding pure normal coloured birds is actually really difficult. the true colouration is endangered.
Indeed. White Lions (certainly the UK/Europe ones) are pure Panthera leo krugeri. Breeding pure P. l. krugeri is something I approve of. White P. l. krugeri are a natural part of that population, so shouldn't be excluded if available.
The problem is that the captive population has no 'tawny' P. l. krugeri at all, and so is a) nonrepresentative of the taxon as a whole and more seriously b) getting repeatedly inbred, due to the limited genetic diversity of white specimens.
I suspect that the odds of any individual white lion surviving in the wild is considerably higher than that of white tigers, given that lions are social animals and disadvantaged individuals can be supported by the rest of the pride.phoenix said:
However, and this is one of the reasons why phoenix is not president of the white lion fan club, if either of those males were bred to their daughter a percentage of white cubs would ensue. There are zoos who do this solely for the purpose of having white cubs to display.
I am sure that Werribee would never do such a thing. However, the problem in the future may come from Werribee's progeny that then go on to other zoos. Not all of them may have Werribee's scruples.
Writing about jaguars, British author David Alderton (in his book Wild Cats of the World) stated,"...and possible albinos,with white claws, are also known."
Wow! A white jaguar! Hey, phoenix, there's an animal you could REALLY have a love/hate relationship with!
Better still, we could have an all-white zoo! White lions and tigers (AND jaguars!) Polar bears, white wallabies and water buffalo, white peacocks and kookaburras, white pythons and alligators. I have an old Melbourne zoo guide with a photo of a white rattlesnake.
Better not though; the place might turn out to be a bit of a white elephant.
Wow! A white jaguar! Hey, phoenix, there's an animal you could REALLY have a love/hate relationship with!
Better still, we could have an all-white zoo! White lions and tigers (AND jaguars!) Polar bears, white wallabies and water buffalo, white peacocks and kookaburras, white pythons and alligators. I have an old Melbourne zoo guide with a photo of a white rattlesnake.
Better not though; the place might turn out to be a bit of a white elephant.
What proportion of white lions are there in the wild population one in 10,000? Or less? I don't know but let's be very generous and say there are one in 1000. So if the zoo population is to reflect the wild population there should not be more than one white lion in zoos for every thousand normal lions. How many lions are there in Australia? Certainly not one thousand, and yet we now have how many white lions?
Zoos do have a need to hold common species, for public entertainment, for education, and for research. It is to be hoped where they can they would choose to hold an endangered species against a similar common species. In the case of the meerkat, it is unlikely that Australian zoos would be able to import another mongoose species. so the meerkat is it if Aussie zoos want to display that interesting family. Besides which meerkats have an interesting social life, which is useful for education. And lastly they do entertain the public.
Remember we are not talking about a species, or even a subspecies, but a recessive mutation. To compare white lions with, say, meerkats, is way off beam.
What is wrong? If the occasional white lion turned up in a litter, and signage explained how they occasionally occur, nothing. But that is not what we are talking about. So what actually happens?
1. White lions are the product of recessive mutations. That means to breed more white lions you need to breed them with others carrying that gene. What animals are most likely to be carrying the gene? Their siblings and parents. To maintain their "investment" in white lions these zoos will have to engage in inbreeding if they don't want to loose the gene.
2. Why would a zoo have them? Primarily for the publicity, and the gate they generate. PR is going to use phrases like "rare white lions", sure beats "recessive mutant lions". Right away without even claiming they are endangered the impression these are "special" and somehow more important than other lions. Not a good educational message. Then there are those zoos (not here in Australia, glad to say) who outright lie and claim they are protecting an "endangered type" of lion.
3. Ignoring whether these zoos are part of a program or members of ARAZPA, at the end of the day there are going to be a substantial number of spaces in zoos in Australia taken up with inbred lions with no conservation, and minimal educational value. That is sad.
So if a zoo's role is really to conserve species and educate the public then, no, white lions are not part of the equation.
Actually, White/Blonde/Pale Lions have been found in Kaokoland, Botswana, Umfolozi and Kruger, as well as Timbavati. And some recent research I heard about suggests that a pride of white lions maybe better hunters than normal lions. The white colour does not disadvantage them as they tend to hunt in sandy areas (near rivers) where normal tawny lions are obvious.
MRJ said:
Are you suggesting normal coloured lions in Australia have considerably more conservation value?
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The gene appears in the wild, and although it has a low frequency it is not extremely rare in this population (as attested by the number of white animals being born in the wild). Therefore, the gene needs to be conserved. It's possible this is the beggining of an evolutionary radiation within the species, which we are interfering with - the current selection pressure upon this gene appears to be Homo sapiens.
Hix
So if a zoo's role is really to conserve species and educate the public then, no, white lions are not part of the equation.[/QUOTE]
Surely 3 pages of posts and growing prove their role in education......I know i am more educated on the exsistence of white lions.....and have even changed my opinion on their breeding.
Ok yes i said it, you guys win.......I know better understand and comprehend the issues with breeding white lions.
Point proven
Surely 3 pages of posts and growing prove their role in education......I know i am more educated on the exsistence of white lions.....and have even changed my opinion on their breeding.
Ok yes i said it, you guys win.......I know better understand and comprehend the issues with breeding white lions.
Point proven