ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Keeper hurt by elephant in Whipsnade

[John Dineley]

You cant go from FC to PC with some Elephants because it's not fair on them they get a lot from keeper contact you get things like this happening all the time anyway you just don't hear about it. I have worked with Elephants FC and sometimes when there wasnt enough keepers in that day you would have to work PC which just comfused them. Having worked with Elephants for a number of years FC I think that it should be up to the Elephant Keepers themselves if they want to work FC or PC not someone sitting in a office having never worked with Elepants FC before. It's mainly bunny huggers that like PC!

Having worked in zoos and aquariums for some years and also had some hands on experience during this time covering elephant sections I have to disagree.

Indeed, just moving from one style of handling to another is exactly what you do not want to be doing and if you move from Free Contact (FC) to Protected Contact (PC) it has to be undertaken slowly and in stages as you would in training any behaviours and there has to be planned consent from the keepers taking part. It also requires prober staffing levels. If, as you say, management where not supplying suitable staffing levels for PC to operate effectively which meant staff had to resort to FC that is basically down to bad management and clearly animals would become confused.

One thing, of course, you have overlooked is that many collection may well have to move from FC as insurance companies may soon not cover zoo staff handling animals in what is considered a risky manner when safer methods i.e. PC are considered available.

I have to say in all honestly that I have never been impressed with the treatment I have seen by *some* elephant handlers where corporal punishment seems to be normal in getting animals under control. It doesn't surprise me in the least that when you establish such dangerous dominant hierarchies that keepers are attacked and/or killed at some point

BTW: Protected Contact is not being used just for elephants and been successfully used on primates and big cats and also Stella sea lions which can be too dangerous to train in a Free Contact environment.

 

[easytigger]

You cant go from FC to PC with some Elephants because it's not fair on them they get a lot from keeper contact you get things like this happening all the time anyway you just don't hear about it. I have worked with Elephants FC and sometimes when there wasnt enough keepers in that day you would have to work PC which just comfused them. Having worked with Elephants for a number of years FC I think that it should be up to the Elephant Keepers themselves if they want to work FC or PC not someone sitting in a office having never worked with Elepants FC before. It's mainly bunny huggers that like PC!

Its not the keepers that have their names above the door when it comes to the fall out from these kind of incidents, in serious incidents such as fatalities charges drawn up by prosecutors can range from health and safety to manslaughter, which will carry a custodial sentence.

I'm not a bunny hugger not by far, but 3 of the four elephants I work with have scars caused by the over zelous use of an ankus in their past (all 3 of which have spent time in circus's or made to do circus style shows in other zoos)

I can also see the appeal of FC, riding a 10 year old bull elephant is an experience that will stay with me forever, but I've lost friends to elephants and having experienced both worlds, I know which side of the fence, or indeed PC barrier I stand.

Change is inevitable those keepers that want to stamp their feet and threaten to quit if the collection goes into PC will in the end be told not to let the door hit them on the way out, surely its better to remain and give the elephants the best possible care you can give them rather then not be with them at all?

 

[EmmaE]

I think that the best way for elephants is PC, as they have a choice, they can take part in the training session for a reward or they can decide for themselves that they don't want to partake in a training session today therefore no reward but also they receive no negative unlike FC where the choice for the elephant is taken away.

I think FC is probably more rewarding for the keepers as they have contact with the animals, but at the end of the day as keepers, we are there for the animals and i would rather not have contact with animals then the animals getting punished!

I think PC is the way forward and any collection working PC is leading the way in elephant management.

 

[Jabiru96]

i sorry, what is pc?

 

[Meaghan Edwards]

PC = Protected Contact.

 

[Jabiru96]

protected contact=cages,chains???

 

[Gajah69]

Unfortunately there have been some giraffe sized stories being told on this thread.Not everything that is achieved in FC is achievable in PC.For me it shows individuals inexperience to see or rather not to see that both forms of management have advantages for elephants,keepers and are suited to respective facilities.Obviously training and skill levels are very relevant to the results achieved and this could be said for all animal handling.The biggest problems facing elephant management are keeper training,daily supervision and management support.Unfortunately alot of zoo's believe they understand elephant management but things couldn't be further from the truth.I hope that people learn to use either form of management to gain the best for their charges at their facility.

 

[CZJimmy]

protected contact=cages,chains???

more like gates and fences

 

[John Dineley]

Unfortunately there have been some giraffe sized stories being told on this thread.Not everything that is achieved in FC is achievable in PC.

I think that depends on the training and skill of the keepers. But, as you rightly say, this is down to training and understanding on all levels in including zoo management. And before you ask, yes I have worked with elephants so speak with some hands-on experience.

 

[wibbs]

Unfortunately there have been some giraffe sized stories being told on this thread.Not everything that is achieved in FC is achievable in PC.For me it shows individuals inexperience to see or rather not to see that both forms of management have advantages for elephants,keepers and are suited to respective facilities.Obviously training and skill levels are very relevant to the results achieved and this could be said for all animal handling.The biggest problems facing elephant management are keeper training,daily supervision and management support.Unfortunately alot of zoo's believe they understand elephant management but things couldn't be further from the truth.I hope that people learn to use either form of management to gain the best for their charges at their facility.

just a quick note to say im glad someone has finaly started to talk sense . I couldnt agree more with what Gajah69 is saying well said

 

[EmmaE]

I agree with you Gajah69 too; and your right there is advantages of both management types, but i still prefer PC especially in terms of the training (PRT), i have seen first hand and been involved in the training and daily management of both FC and PC so understand how both management techniques work.

 

[easytigger]

Unfortunately there have been some giraffe sized stories being told on this thread.Not everything that is achieved in FC is achievable in PC.For me it shows individuals inexperience to see or rather not to see that both forms of management have advantages for elephants,keepers and are suited to respective facilities.Obviously training and skill levels are very relevant to the results achieved and this could be said for all animal handling.The biggest problems facing elephant management are keeper training,daily supervision and management support.Unfortunately alot of zoo's believe they understand elephant management but things couldn't be further from the truth.I hope that people learn to use either form of management to gain the best for their charges at their facility.

I am interested to hear what can't be achieved via PC that can be achiveved in FC when it comes to basic an importand husbandry. Foot care both front and back, presenting ears for blood sampling, leaning in for injections and basic medical procedures, are all easily achieved. Some other things might require an ERD (elephant restraint device) which all PC elephant facilities have or are working towards, to aid veterinary procedures when required, in the meantime then I accept that this is a downfall in the PC arena as in most cases its collections adapting facilities to PC rather then creating PC orientated housing, but adaptions will continue to be made and when new facilities are constructed they will be built with PC 100% in mind

I fully appreciate that this incident is close to home for you, and that you as free contact keepers get lots out of being with the elephants, so things like taking the elephants out on to the downs are things that would have to stop in a PC situation, but they could be replaced by enclosure based enrichment equally as stimulating, and PC sessions with the elephants.

One of your colleagues at the recent BIAZA protected contact workshop at Dublin perhaps didn't do your cause much good when asked by Alan Roocroft 'Why do we train elephants?' His answer was 'For fun!'

So PC collections don't make elephants stand on their heads or balance on things or sit up etc in, but those behaviours could be taught and shaped should it be desired but don't they belong with chimps tea parties and parrots on bikes, firmly in the past?

PC is a relatively new comer to elephant husbandry is it goign to be a passing fad that will come and go or the shape of things to come, the shift in collections that have shifted to PC speaks volumes, and even ones that were recently commited to free contact like Krefeld in Germany are now changing to PC.

By all means cling on to the past, but at least try and embrace the future

 

[elliegirl]

I am a little curious as to what behaviors cant be trained in pc? I have trained over 46 different behaviors including lie downs and stretches. We have never had a problem training husbandry behaviors that arise. As for our elephant/ keeper relationship I dont understand why you think keepers in a fc system have better relationships than those of us in pc. Our ellies come over all the time for attention... even when we dont have food Our bull comes over for "butt drums" and likes to have his tongue scratched. Im not sure how pc is done in England, but where I work we are extremely close to our guys. We climb up on the gates and bars right next to them. We work them at thin cable wires. Im not going to lie, I have hugged my elephants around the trunk.

Oh the reason I was looking at your zoo chat page in the first place is i am coming over to London in a few weeks and was wondering which zoo I should check out... preferably one with elephants

 

[Zambar]

If you're coming to London, then the absolute certainties to visit will be Whipsnade just to the North and Howletts just to the South-East. Whipsnade has a large breeding group of Asians (which is the original focus of this thread lol) and Howletts has the biggest African herd in the UK, over a dozen individuals.

 

[elliegirl]

If you're coming to London, then the absolute certainties to visit will be Whipsnade just to the North and Howletts just to the South-East. Whipsnade has a large breeding group of Asians (which is the original focus of this thread lol) and Howletts has the biggest African herd in the UK, over a dozen individuals.

Thanks! I'm excited to see Howletts! I work with Africans Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it!

 

[Gajah69]

easytigger

I am interested to hear what can't be achieved via PC that can be achiveved in FC when it comes to basic an importand husbandry. Foot care both front and back, presenting ears for blood sampling, leaning in for injections and basic medical procedures, are all easily achieved. Some other things might require an ERD (elephant restraint device) which all PC elephant facilities have or are working towards, to aid veterinary procedures when required, in the meantime then I accept that this is a downfall in the PC arena as in most cases its collections adapting facilities to PC rather then creating PC orientated housing, but adaptions will continue to be made and when new facilities are constructed they will be built with PC 100% in mind

I fully appreciate that this incident is close to home for you, and that you as free contact keepers get lots out of being with the elephants, so things like taking the elephants out on to the downs are things that would have to stop in a PC situation, but they could be replaced by enclosure based enrichment equally as stimulating, and PC sessions with the elephants.

One of your colleagues at the recent BIAZA protected contact workshop at Dublin perhaps didn't do your cause much good when asked by Alan Roocroft 'Why do we train elephants?' His answer was 'For fun!'

So PC collections don't make elephants stand on their heads or balance on things or sit up etc in, but those behaviours could be taught and shaped should it be desired but don't they belong with chimps tea parties and parrots on bikes, firmly in the past?

PC is a relatively new comer to elephant husbandry is it goign to be a passing fad that will come and go or the shape of things to come, the shift in collections that have shifted to PC speaks volumes, and even ones that were recently commited to free contact like Krefeld in Germany are now changing to PC.

By all means cling on to the past, but at least try and embrace the future

If you can explain to me how a PC collection will attempt to take care of a herpes positive calf without its mother being beside it,then I will be bothered to take note of your comments rather than your grandstanding.That's for starters.

 

[John Dineley]

FC= Full Contact I.E elephants and keepers are in close proximety without barrier.

PC= Protected Contact mean the keepers never actually go in with the elephants as it were contact is through bars and barriers usually done by target training.

This is a misconception regarding PC. I found some of the original papers on-line which are interesting read regardless of your position on this matter.

About Active Environments

Tim Desmond and his colleagues did a lot of the original work at San Deigo Zoo I believe.

 

[elliegirl]

If you can explain to me how a PC collection will attempt to take care of a herpes positive calf without its mother being beside it,then I will be bothered to take note of your comments rather than your grandstanding.That's for starters.

So I am curious what is involved with the care of the calf? What exactly are you doing? How old is the calf? I assume you work with Asians since this is a herpes issue. We do seperate our calves from their mothers all the time for weights, urine collection, and other things. But what are you doing that would require the mom and calf to be seperated? I am truely interested.

 

[Gajah69]

You will require venous access if any attempt is to be made to save the calfs life and from a pc point of view I believe this would be very difficult to achieve and to begin with the calf will need to be restrained so that again will be difficult if not unachievable in pc management.As I originally said in the beginning both forms of management have merit depending on the situation but I cannot forbid those that ridicule fc due to a lack of knowledge and experience.Every credit to you and your team for achieving 40+ behaviors in pc but as you know this is rare rather than the norm.

 

[easytigger]

If you can explain to me how a PC collection will attempt to take care of a herpes positive calf without its mother being beside it,then I will be bothered to take note of your comments rather than your grandstanding.That's for starters.

With the cow by its side? well that defeats the objectives of PC, you wouldn't treat an ill tiger cub in free contact with its mum or an ill gorilla. By seperating the calf from its mum you allow the maximum amount of veterinary care, while keeping the cow and calf within visual, oral and aural contact, with the minimum amount of stress, in a minimum space of time.

Antibiotics can be taken orally or, depending on PC training the calf might have learn't to lean in for husbandry, due to desensitization, they may be able to take subcutaneous or intramuscular injections to allow the administration of drugs, depending on the onset of E.E.h.V. the the use of an E.R.D or at worst a light standing sedative might be needed to administer the rectal medicine required, or fluids required by drip, as the first 46 hours are critical in the treatment of E.E.H.V then all treatment is progress.

As an individual it would be impossible for me to give you the answer you want as it depends on the collections facilities and contigency plans for such an emergency, I'm happy to research it and post the relevant reponsenses here though.

How were medicines administerd during the cases as whipsnade? Where was the cow in relevance to the calf i.e. free contact / chained etc? I'm asking purely for education reasons, E.E.H.V will continue to hit calves and herds, the more we know the better we as a pachyderm keeping community can act.