Alladale, the next step

You can watch 4 parts of the documentry about Lister and his plans for Alladale on youtube





I think the plan is to increase to 50,000 and have them roaming freely together. He went to Shamwari in Africa to see how they manage large game out there.
 
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OK, thanks forumsters redpanda and Vulpes! I will check out the videos with great interest, but it will have to be tomorrow as it is now getting late here in Sweden.

Just a final question for tonight: someone mentioned the laws on the right to ramble in a post above. Would anyone like to explain this expression to me?
 
Dan said:
Just a final question for tonight: someone mentioned the laws on the right to ramble in a post above. Would anyone like to explain this expression to me?
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I'm sure our scottish members will know more about this than me, but from what I can ascertain the Rambler's Association got a right to roam act which allows them free access to large areas of the highlands. As Alladale sits on a number of trails, the rambler's are (as is, rather unflatteringly, shown in one of vulpes' videos) not too pleased.
 
Hmmm... this has something to to with the fact(?) that large parts of UK land (forests, mountains etc etc) are privately owned and that people in general are not allowed to be there without permission from the land owner, or?

I believe this is the case in many countries whereas here in Sweden (and all other Nordic countries?) it is not so. Here you can walk anywhere as long as you do not trample on growing seeds or walk into someone´s private garden. You may own a forest but you cannot forbid anyone to be there or forbid them to pick mushroom and berries etc.
 
I think the problem at Alladale is specificially if they enclosed the land with a fence to keep in the introduced species they would be interrupting the 'right to roam' on ancient tracks and footpaths. Also of course the problem of walkers coming into contact with these animals.
 
Ultimately I don't think it is right to fence off a large area of an estate when the public have a legal right of access. But I would like to see this project succeed and foster a growing desire in the public to have some large mammals reintroduced, principally because of the positive aspect of their ecological impact.

The really grown-up approach would be for ramblers to be able to access the full reserve (not the 500-acre site) along with the animals, as this would potentially do more to demonstrate the negligible risk to humans than any PR campaign. It would serve as a model for the eventual reintroduction of these species to the countryside. In a strange way, maybe this is why this is happening, if the rambler issue is solved it may really start to give this movement some headway.

I think it is dangerous to see 'rewilding' as something that must be done by keeping humans out, by fences or even gunpoint, as has happened in some parts of the globe. There is the potential here to change the scottish countryside in such an amazing way, and I don't believe electric fences separating people from animals will achieve that.

However, in light of what I just said, I think the one species Paul Lister should not attempt to bring to this project is the brown bear.
 
I like the idea of the public also having access but I cant see in happening. Especially as there must be some commercial part of the whole project which would really take away business if you can walk through for free.

Although I cant really see a problem with brown bears what issues do they cause Johnstoni?

The main problem with this project in my mind is that if a single person gets hurt. Animals or humans fault there will be calls too close the place down which is unfortunate.

However I for one do not like the rights to roam act in the first place and hope is gets re-addressed.
 
It is to do with the amount of acres that you want to fence in. Highlands Wildlife park is not anywhere near big enough to worry about the right to roam act.

As the act says you do not have the right to roam on developed land and the Park is developed land so it is not effected by the act.
 
I think its a pity that laws created in the dark ages are keeping us in the dark ages. I can understand why the laws are there and why people want to maintain them but I think that exception should be made in the face of progress!
 
The right to room act is pretty recent law implemented in Scotland in 2003. Back in the dark ages in Scotland you were more likely to get Shot by the gamekeepers for trespassing!
 
I like how people think that the Wolves will only eat Red Deer. How many times have we released 'beneficial' species to other parts of the world only for that species to completely decimate another? Of course Wolves will take Red Deer, but what about other things? Like people have already said, the forests are already under immense pressure, why pile more species on there to make it even worse? The ecosystem has balanced itself without Boar and Wolves for 300 years. It always does, but throw those animals back in, you can do more damage. I am very much against the release of these animals. Not only for the existing wildlife, but for the animals themselves. If they go into total release (where they have full roam of Scotland) if they get into a farm or into a town or anywhere with humans, what's to stop them getting shot? Not very much.
 
If wolves are introduced they will not be wild in Scotland they will be in a confined large reserve. This is really a experiment to see what would happen if the Scottish highlands had species re-introduced but in a controlled setting.

Scotland does have problems with Deer numbers and it will be interesting to see if wolves in a controlled environment can help solve the need for culling deer in Scotland. Area's like Yellowstone park and Sweden have successfully re-introduced wolves and I have not see any reports on them having a negative impact on local flora and fauna well except maybe the deer....
 
I for one would love to see wolves back in not just Scotland but all over the UK.
As being talked about alot on this thread the Ecosystem of these areas or the Ecosystem of all areas over the years as had a much more damaging animal in them then a wolf will ever be.
The damage caused by this animal as sent many animal/reptile/insect and fish into extiction yet I here no one arguing about that animal on this thread.
I would love to see that animal fenced off and banned from destroying whats left of our woods and forrests so the animals that are left can enjoy the area they choose to occupy.
Oh and by the way the animal that's destroying the Ecosystem that is precious in our country are Humans not wolves
 
BadWolf09 said:
The ecosystem has balanced itself without Boar and Wolves for 300 years.
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Not in its original form it hasn't. The original Caledonian Pine forests and birch/sallow river valley woodlands have all been decimated, partly by clearance and also from overgrazing by the enormous overpopulation of Red Deer. Boar improve the conditions for seedling tree growth by rooting through the forest floor. Wolves would reduce the number of grazing animals. A greater diversity of vegetation, and therefore a richer ecosystem, would be the longterm result. Of course in reality, this could only be done under semi-controlled conditions, as is proposed under the Alladale scheme.
 
Muggins said:
I like the idea of the public also having access but I cant see in happening. Especially as there must be some commercial part of the whole project which would really take away business if you can walk through for free.

Although I cant really see a problem with brown bears what issues do they cause Johnstoni?

The main problem with this project in my mind is that if a single person gets hurt. Animals or humans fault there will be calls too close the place down which is unfortunate.

However I for one do not like the rights to roam act in the first place and hope is gets re-addressed.
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Because wolves and lynx are not really a threat to humans even in a large enclosed space, but bears are a very different story. Wild boar are also dangerous but again there have been no attacks to my knowledge in the forest of Dean or Sussex Weald. I would think breeding elk or bison would be more of a threat that wolves or lynx.

I disagree about the Right to Roam act. People can coexist well with nature and wild space, we are taught that humans are a disease on this planet and its that attitude which allows human rights abuses and woeful neglect of impoverished communities in the name of conservation (I'm not suggesting Ramblers are an impoverished community).
 
Bears would be the most dangerous out of the group of animals introduced I admit. But the chances of bear attacks are slim bears usually attack either if they are with cubs or are weak bears that are getting old or struggling to bulk up for winter.

Also data shows in America recorded fatal bear attacks between 1900 and 2003 was around 50. More people died from walking in fields of cattle the risks are small.

The problem with the right to roam act at Alladale will be fences and gates some muppet will either accidently or on deliberately leave them open if people to have the right to roam.

I have personal issues with it with the amount of people that leave rubbish all over my families farm land. Also someone tried to claim against my father for falling in a rabbit hole and breaking there ankle can you believe it!
 
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