just read your first post Xerxes. regarding the great apes you say that you have hardly watched a group for more than a few minutes. is this enough time to guage the adequacy of the enclosure and level of social cohesion within the group? in my opinion great apes are ideal candidates for captivity, given the right conditions. their status in the wild underpins the importance of what are, for all 4 species highly succesful international programs.
I said I rarely watch great apes for a long time. I usually do not have the time when at the zoo ; usually these exhibits are also overcrowded, and if I hate one thing, it's busy and overcrowded viewing areas.
On topic ; I usually pay more attention to the exhibits then to the apes themselves. I may have so far been a bit neglectant about them, that's true.
I have seen enough exhibits for them and I believe I have seen some good ones and some bad ones. I spent enough time to judge these.
Considering the groups : I've clearly seen very unusual behaviour, including getting into contact with visitors and such. That's my biggest problem : the simplicity of them getting into close contact. Many zoos happily forbid this contact or prevent it from happening.
I've also read a few ethological studies about primates in capitvity and the wild.
This convinces me their social behaviour and intelligence might be to complex and elevated to provide them a suitable environment.
I'm aware of the state of primates in the wild ; which might underline the need for captive breeding, however I believe always in-situ research and protection is needed in the first place.
Breeding for all for is usually quite easily done (as in ,in some here they've had to give their apes birth control) ; maybe captive breeding is an option.
I was gesturing to the fact that many groups may have unnatural numbers or gender-ratio's. Not a problem an sich, but it may become.
I was gesturing more to the lack of space ,climbing structures and enrichment in many exhibits I've seen.
Look, I'm - besides cetaceans - not very much really against the keeping of certain species. I'm only tired of seeing these species being kept in environments that are not suitable.
im also all for rhinos being in captivity. here in Australian zoos we have 3 species, and the standards of the exhibits for all 3 species are exceptional across the region. once again, global breeding programs are becoming more and more succesful with the rhino species and rhinos as a whole benefit from insurance programs. they are also a group of animals which could be reintroduced from zoo breeding programs in the future or at least benifit immensely from the assisted reproduction work zoos are conducting.
I understand the argument of the breeding programs, but their use is often debated, sadly. I do believe in the use of breeding programs.
I've seen high standard exhibits as well for rhinos.
I understand the need of breeding ; maybe I choose a wrong title. Some of these species I am against, others I have some troubles or second thoughts with.
But my greatest complaint is many still do not understand everything about keeping them. It disturbs me often stables are far too small; many zoos that have for example the indian - solitary - species do not have acceptable seperation pens or multiple exhibits.
Also, often the solitary ones are kept together. I've only seen the white rhino besides that; I believe this species is acceptable and doing pretty well.
Considering rhinos, I think they're a species that can be continued to be kept; just a few major changes are needed.
when it comes to elephants i think there is ALOT of room for optimism. in North America the African Elephant SSP is reaching its targets and despite the setbacks the Asian Elephant program is improving. A vigoruos roll out of enclosure redevlopments, constantly revised husbandary and other strategy's including retirement sanctuaries should see the SSP in that region executed sustainably long term. again, I have no problem with elephants being kept 'well' by zoos. in Europe much has been made of recent Asian Elephant births. German, Dutch, UK and Irish zoos all experiencing success of late. these represent big and quick steps towards a better future for this species. considering just a few years ago the IZN reported this species risked zoo extinction its a positive reversal. hopefully soon the Australasian zoo community will add to the international network of zoos keeping elephants well and breeding them.
I think there is some room for optimism when it comes to elephants, but my main thought is that a lot of change and thinkin is necessary.
Vigorous rethinking of exhibiting ,care and breeding are very much necessary, as well as more studies on actually what elephants need in captivity and wether they are suitable is needed.
It comes to be that I remember how dangerous they are. Look, in fact protected handling or hands-on is needed in elephants to provide health monitoring and care. This is also a very dangerous job; keepers are still getting killed by elephants on an all to regular basis.
I'm not sure, but I think that if a species is a danger to keepers, some serious considering is needed.
I'm not saying they cannot be kept well. I've seen a few pretty good enclosure, e.g. for african elephant in Hilvarenbeek and Wuppertal and for asian elephant a huge and very well made enclosure at Emmen.
My great complaints are the inner housing (which is necessary in many areas) and the lack of space in almost any elephant exhibit.
I'm rather unsure whether it's possible for many zoos to provide them the space and care they need.
Some are doing an excellent job though ,Emmen and Keulen for instance.
I heard about the breeding - I've seen some of the babies myself.
They have made big steps, though breeding still is not going easy. There's still too much stillbirths and deaths of young.
also far too common are deaths of adult elephants, which I believe to be partially due to inadequate keeping or care.
Big steps have been made already, but I'm convinced more steps are needed.
It's not for nothing some are aiming for elephant-free zoos. They do not exactly thrive in captvity so far (or at least, that's my thought).
I believe a positive reversal in elephant keeping is possible, but there's a long way to go.
And even then, I still have some issues with them, e.g. the fact they even in large exhibits sometimes still show stereotypes (I've seen it) and are animals in great need of space and movement.
I believe some zoos can do it well, but some others better do not continue elephant keeping.
I'm not saying all should get rid of elephants, but some zoos should.
when it comes to whales and dolphins in captivity my opinions are a little mixed. in the case of Sea World on the Gold Coast, Australia, where third generation calves are being born, i think keeping dolphins is ok. but in general marine parks, particularly those close to the coastline should do more to provide these animals with better environemnts, ie mesh sided exhibits and sea walls jutting out to create enclosures within the sea. in Western Australia such a facility was in place for dolphins at an aquarium called AQWA and i cant help but feel it was a good idea.
I remember seeing a nice marine park years ago. it was dolfinarium Harderwijk in the Netherlands, I'm sure.
They've got I think about 30 dolphins these days ; some are kept in a large laguna and are thriving.
At that time ,I might myself think it's oké. But then, I can only accept it that way.
Look, I'm not keen on these dolphin shows. I don't like to see these animals do unnatural tricks to get a public cheering and having fun.
Almost always ,these animals are in barren, concrete and glass bassins. I've only seen a few dolphin exhibits so far, but I've read some reports and some websites indicating it might not at all be a good idea.
Many dolphin babies die and many adults die to early.
In some facilities, the dolphins are stressed out and pushed to the limit.
Dolphins don't exactly thrive in most facilities. I think that if being kept, it would not be right or doing them well to keep them in these show exhibits.
Look ,I'd love to visit Harderwijk again, as I loved the lake back then.
But the shows with dolphins in another facility disturb me, so I'm not going there (it's too expensive anyways).
I do not feel right about the keeping of dolphins in barren enclosures (plus, some say their sonars and echolocation might cause them great troubles in these enclosures).
If kept in the future ,they should be in facilities like the one at Harderwijk. The shows that are nowadays the use, I believe do not have a very high educative or other value but mere amusement and money-catching.
If kept in the future, dolphin keeping should have some rigorous re-considering.
I'd rather see cetaceans phased out. Especially orcas. This is a species that just does not belong in captivity. Maybe dolphins can be made something of, but I'm still against.
bears................there is plenty of scope for improvement with bears but as a whole this is one group of animals which pretty much need zoo help. i have never seen a bear pit, and imagine it wouldnt be too good, but I must say that here in Australia most of the zoo bear exhibits are of a good standard. there have been problems with stereotypic behaviours in the Sun Bears at some zoos but this is probably a reflection of their 'rescue origins' more than any fault in enclosure design. Polar Shores in Queensland, the Sun Bear exhibit at Perth and Kodiak Bear Canyon of Taronga Zoo are all good exhibits. in Europe good bear exhibit include Rome Zoo and Emmen. there are probably many more. the situation where bears are kept socially seems to afflict brown bears particularly. I cant help but think this is a reflection of the early stages of the EEP/ management strategy for this species combined with their longeivity and of course the cost to upgrade bear exhibits. perhaps in the future these issues will be ironed out.
I've seen some great bear exhibits. I do not like the one in Emmen too much, but I love the ones at Ouwehands (bear forest, rescueing of bears as well) and Zoom Erlebniswelt.
Huge spaces giving the bears the opportunity to roam free in a natural environment and to display their behaviour to the best possibility.
Look ,the main thing is bears are great migrators and need large spaces in order not to start walking around stereotypically. I've even seen this in large spaces.
The bear pits are these days happily dissapearing in most facilities (for instance, I only know of a few in western europe still having them and have only seen a small amount of bear pits over the last 5 years).
The main issue is that breeding is not working out. In polar bears, some births in recent years have convinced me this species to be a species for the future.
I don't have the same feeling about brown bears.
I still think the husbandry is a problem ,especially in brown bears, as I don't have even a single account of them breeding in recent years.
Maybe I've missed it.
Look ,bear keeping has still got many issues that need to be solved.
If this can be done, I think they have a future in zoos. But I'm unsure.
finally, birds of prey. i cannot see a problem with birds of prey in captivity. in some cases zoo breeding programs have, as pointed out, saved species. having worked for a week behind the scenes in Sydney with the bird department which conducts the presentations I can tell you that there at least the raptors are not tethered and instead live off show in very large aviaires. they are trained by positive reinforcement, their weight monitored twice a day. they are well cared for, breed well and do well.
Look, if programs save species, than nothing against. My own local zoo breeds Eurasian black vultures (a wonderfull animal ,by the way) and have already released at least 5 and probably more in I believe the Cevenne in France, where they seem to so far have survived.
I'm not very well up with the news though, and not much about it is being released.
I haven't said I'm having problem with the keeping an sich. I must say maybe I should have made the title "having seconds thoughts on..." or "having problems with...". I have problems with any species being kept in inadequate housing. All too often, raptors are still.
Maybe falconry is better where you live; I've seen the tethering ,chaining and more in different facilities. However, I've also seen some great facilities.
What surprises me as well, is how these trainers take care of these birds.
They are certainly very much involved with the birds. And I do not mean this in a bad way.
Look, I'm not a falconer, so I'm unknowing on the methods of training in raptors. I've seen some people caring a lot and threating them well, but I've also seen different things.
I think the presentation ought to get some rigorous revisitation. As to letting the birds fly low over the public ,sit on people's heads ,handlers between the public and such, I think these ought to dissapear from the presentations.
If kept further, they should be based on natural behaviour and be educative.
I've seen a few very good tries already.
I know it's possible to establish a future for many raptors in zoos.
Just, some are still troubling me. Maybe's it's emotion in some.
so overall i do disagree with your list. sorry, but i just think that as Western zoos improve exhibits, link CBP with in-situ conservation strategies etc these species have a place in GOOD zoos.
You are obviously allowed to disagree, and no need to be sorry.
I agree to a great hight that improvement , in-situ conservation ,CBP and more are needed and usefull.
I am only convinced a lot more change is needed in zoos and in their relation to public and outside world.
There still is far too much too criticize. But good zoos do exist, even with species on my list. I mean, my favourite has most of them besides elephants and cetaceans.
I believe most species can have a place, other than cetaceans. But this needs a lot of work.
