Mountain Gorilla

G

Gary

Well-Known Member
Watching the wonderful BBC2 documentary series on Sunday, the thought struck me, "Why are there no Mountain Gorillas in captivity?"

Given their existence in 2 of the most war-torn countries on earth, home of the deadly Ebola virus, where they are hunted as bushmeat, and that they live on a volcanic mountain range, they really do have the odds stacked against them!

Given the fairly successful breeding of Lowland Gorillas in captivity, surely it would not be too hard to maintain a breeding population 'in reserve'?

There are animals (ie-Amur Leopard) that are even rarer than the Mountain Gorilla that are held in captivity, so that can't be the reason?

Anybody amongst my learned colleagues who can advise me?
 
I believe it was because they were too hard to maintain in captivity. They have been held at zoos in the past (not recently). However, there are 2 Eastern Lowland Gorillas (G. b. graueri) at Antwerp Zoo. These are closely related to Mountain Gorillas.
 
There are both mountain gorilla and Eastern lowland gorilla in D.R. Congo rescue centers for rehabilitation. :cool:

The ZOO Antwerpen gorillas are 0.1 mountain (Rwandan/Ugandan? stock - questionmark) and 0.1 Eastern lowland gorilla. Time to do DNA testing on all 2 ssp. in captivity and from original source populations (mountain - Rwanda/Uganda/D.R. Congo and Eastern lowland - D.R. Congo) for verification.
 
I was told they often suffered chest problems due to the lack of high altitude.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
The ZOO Antwerpen gorillas are 0.1 mountain (Rwandan/Ugandan? stock - questionmark) and 0.1 Eastern lowland gorilla. Time to do DNA testing on all 2 ssp. in captivity and from original source populations (mountain - Rwanda/Uganda/D.R. Congo and Eastern lowland - D.R. Congo) for verification.
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How on earth can DNA testing on two individuals, save an entire subspecies?
 
It would be interesting to know the true provenance of the Antwerp female 'Amohoro' who is thought to possibly be a true Montain Gorilla (though she does not fully resemble one). This is largely academic though as its unlikely Antwerp will get any more Eastern Lowland/Mountain gorillas after these two females die. Their record with keeping and breeding them has been extremely poor anyway with only the current female 'Victoria' having survived to maturity and then remaining unbred from.

Very few (probably only 4) true Mountain Gorillas have ever left Africa. No zoos have enough experience in keeping them to warrant any future imports. I doubt they will ever enter Zoos again.
 
Zambar said:
I was told they often suffered chest problems due to the lack of high altitude.
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Then why can other mammals originating from the same habitat as the mountain gorillas (including different subspecies of colobus, red-tailed, vervet monkeys etc.) be kept in zoos without such problems? And why is nothing like this reported about the currently kept mountain gorillas (Antwerp certainly isn't located at "high altitude")?

If I remember correctly, at least one of the two mountain gorillas kept at Cologne zoo in the 1970s had some respiratory problems-but that is rather related to the hygiene problems of the requirement and transport of the animal than to any mysterious general "low altitude chest pain problem"...

"Why are there no Mountain Gorillas in captivity?"
The reason is quite simple: politics.
Remember how Dian Fossey made a public fuss when two of "her" gorillas were sent to Cologne zoo?
Today's local African politicians don't want any white "neo-colonialist" organisations to steal "their" profitable, tourist-attracting gorillas...while most zoos don't want to burden themselves with the red tape and public animal right activists' outcry linked with the import of wild-caught apes for their shrinking collections; especially when the current lowland gorillas are enough to draw visitors in and the problem of surplus lowland males hasn't be solved yet.

@Pertinax: Must be more than 4; zootierliste mentions at least 6, and there was a thread on this forum about mountain gorillas kept in a now closed facility in Canada.
 
Sun Wukong said:
@Pertinax: Must be more than 4; zootierliste mentions at least 6, and there was a thread on this forum about mountain gorillas kept in a now closed facility in Canada.
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I think your summation of why no more Mountain Gorillas are coming into captivity is a pretty good one.

By 'Mountain' I refer to G.g. beringei- the 'true' shaggy-coated Volcano gorillas. Only four of these are definately known to have entered captivity-a female Miss Congo to the Bronx Zoo and later Yerkes in the 1920's, a shortlived male Reuben to London Zoo early 1960's, and the two Diane Fossey females, Coco & Pucker, that went to Cologne Zoo 1970's.

All other references usually refer to the bigger, shorter coated, but still jet-black Eastern Lowland 'Graueri species, of which there have been a scattering in zoos in the past, though AFAIK there aren't any others anywhere in zoos nowadays apart from the one/two at Antwerp, so I believe Zootierlist is either wrong or reporting misidentified animals.
 
Sun Wukong said:
If I remember correctly, at least one of the two mountain gorillas kept at Cologne zoo in the 1970s had some respiratory problems-but that is rather related to the hygiene problems of the requirement and transport of the animal than to any mysterious general "low altitude chest pain problem"...
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You are somewhat quick to judge others and jump to conclusions. It is commonly known, as I am sure you are aware, that no pure-bred domestic yaks can live below an altitude 10,000ft.

And before you suggest I look on "zootierliste" and look at how many lowland zoos keep yaks, these animals are yak X domestic cattle.

High altitude species have developed a larger lung tidal volume and less dense lung parenchyma compared to their lowland relatives. This coupled with thinner pulmonic vessels which have lost the hypoxic vasoconstrictor responce allows many species to survive at height. These adaptations have been seen in both the yak and the Andean mountain viscacha (Lagidium peruanum).


I would be less hasty in future to disregard other forum-users suggestions, when the animals in question live at altitudes up to 14,100ft. How could they not suffer when suddenly brought down to sea-level almost overnight?
 
Dear Shoebill,


I could start discussion with you on high altitude species, but that will go to off-topic, if you want I can send you some species being succesfully kept in activity although I must admit my focuss will be on birds (but I must admit I do understand the difficulty of adapting them to a sealevel climate).
In the case of mountain gorilla's do no forget that there natural habitat is not that high (they were as well recorded at 2000 meters). Also there were orphans kept succesfully at Rumangabo which is at an altitude of 1500 meters. So adopting mountain gorilla's to a sealevel climate should be feasible. The reasons for not keeping them are mainly political instead of potential husbandry problems.
 
Shoebill said:
It is commonly known, as I am sure you are aware, that no pure-bred domestic yaks can live below an altitude 10,000ft.
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Can you quote a scientific & factual back-up for this "commonly known" claim?
Believe it or not: wild yaks were kept at Beijing zoo a few years ago. And Beijing lies, as it is commonly known, below 10,000 ft, doesn't it? Too bad you couldn't find that on zootierliste.

Shoebill said:
These adaptations have been seen in both the yak and the Andean mountain viscacha (Lagidium peruanum).
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Thank you for providing this incredible new information I was sooo unaware of.
But have these and similar adaptions also been observed in Mountain gorillas? I don't think so. If you know otherwise, then please enlighten me.
Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions either, as you might end up comparing oranges and apples. And you shouldn't fall for (incorrect) generalisations.

Shoebill said:
I would be less hasty in future to disregard other forum-users suggestions, when the animals in question live at altitudes up to 14,100ft. How could they not suffer when suddenly brought down to sea-level almost overnight?
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And if I were you, I'd be less hasty to quote inappropriate examples-and first think whose toes you want to step on before doing so. Otherwise, you might receive more than you can deal with...

Oh, btw:
ZootierlisteHomepage
Ever seen the last Mountain viscachas at Halle Zoo? Funny enough, they died of old age, and never complained about any chest pain...:rolleyes:
 
Shoebill said:
High altitude species have developed a larger lung tidal volume and less dense lung parenchyma compared to their lowland relatives. This coupled with thinner pulmonic vessels which have lost the hypoxic vasoconstrictor responce allows many species to survive at height. These adaptations have been seen in both the yak and the Andean mountain viscacha (Lagidium peruanum).
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A large group of Lagidium peruanum have been doing fine at Hamerton in low-lying Cambridgeshire for many years, so I'm not sure they're the best argument to support your case.
 
Does any one have any more info on Rueben, the male Mountain Gorilla at London in the early 1960s? I have a guide book from 1962 that mentions him.
 
Bwassa said:
Does any one have any more info on Rueben, the male Mountain Gorilla at London in the early 1960s? I have a guide book from 1962 that mentions him.
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‘Reuben’ arrived at London Zoo in 1960; there is a nice photograph of him in the ZSL Annual Report for that year.

Sadly, according to the Annual Report for 1962, he died of pneumonia during the very cold weather at the end of that year.

(I recall seeing Reuben when I was a very small child.)
 
DNA testing on ZOO Antwerpen gorillas is relevant in order to establish beyond any credible doubt the ssp. for Amohoro.

Never mentioned that DNA testing of these would assist in singlehandedly save the species in situ .... :rolleyes:

Back on topic: in both rescues centers in D.R. Congo the focus is on rehabilitation and release back to the wild as a functioning social group. For scientific purposes it would be interesting to take blood samples for DNA and other genetic tests.

For all good purposes: I do not think that the 3 scattered populations of mountain gorilla G. berengei berengei will qualify for an ex situ captive colony outside range. I cannot see this assisting their long term survival in situ. For Eastern lowlands G. berengei graueri - given that the populations are a little larger - it may be relevant to set up insurance populations in captivity and more swiftly and under near-natural conditions start reproducing gorilla family units. It might just work ....

Why has it not worked in the past: the social and reproductive ecology were poorly understood when the ill-fated first mountains and Eastern lowlands got established in zoos. Even the ZOO Antwerpen group kept singly in small cages ... - IMO - never came even close to allowing for natural social groupings and social behaviour conducive to natural breeding. IMO, hence the re-breeding on several occasions by one graueri female at ZOO Antwerpen was a major feat.

Shame it was never repeated in a full social setting ..., or I would have put my hand in the burning ashes to claim that it would have developed into a normal socially adept family unit with naturally reproducing and mother-raised gorillas ..... :cool:
 
And if I were you, I'd be less hasty to quote inappropriate examples-and first think whose toes you want to step on before doing so. Otherwise, you might receive more than you can deal with...


Surely the moderators are not going to allow SW to threaten people on zoochat for having a opinion.

Time to leave again SW

It is just not necessary to treat people this way.
 
Sun Wukong said:
Can you quote a scientific & factual back-up for this "commonly known" claim?
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I direct you to the second page, third paragraph of this University of Cambridge journal, I hope this is credible enough for a man/woman of your standing.

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/contributions/pdf/CNAS_11_02_03.pdf

Sun Wukong said:
Thank you for providing this incredible new information I was sooo unaware of.
But have these and similar adaptions also been observed in Mountain gorillas? I don't think so. If you know otherwise, then please enlighten me.
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Never did I say that the Mountain gorilla has these anatomical and physiological adaptations. I merely infered that if other species have these adaptions, it is also possible that so does the mountain gorilla. These adaptations may or may not influence it's ability to be kept at lower altitudes.

Also, thanks for the patronising bold. It really drove your point home.

Sun Wukong said:
Otherwise, you might receive more than you can deal with...
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This speaks for itself. Moderator?

Sun Wukong said:
Funny enough, they died of old age, and never complained about any chest pain...:rolleyes:
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Chest pain would be in my professional opinon would not be a manifestation. I would expect coughing, sneezing, regurgitation, ataxia, dysphagia, dyspnoea and tachycardia. But then what do I know, I am only a qualified Veterinary Surgeon.
 
zooman said:
Surely the moderators are not going to allow SW to threaten people on zoochat for having a opinion.
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In this case I think the threat is used in the context of supplying more ammunition for this discussion, not as a personal/ direct threat. However I would ask him to remember the previous agreements he made in order to stay on the Forum, and for the benefit of other people partaking in this discussion to 'cool it' a bit. Thankyou.
 
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