South Lakes Wild Animal Park Finally!!

Nisha

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
Finally six years after they were paired together the Sumatran Tigers at South Lakes have produced there first cub! She is a female who was born in the early hours of 7th September. Her mother Alisha wasn't looking after the cub as well as her keepers expected her too so the cub was removed from the den and bottle fed before being given back to Alisha in the hope that she would start to take better care of her. She has been named Kadi and is not being handreared at this stage. The father is Padang who was born at Dudley in 2002
 
Not even a day old and its been subject to being having a camera pushed into its face and held by children. Very unwise for them to announce the cubs birth so soon (literally day of birth!) Wouldn't be surprised if it didn't survive. I think the excitement has gone to South Lakes head on this one.
 
I know it is unwise to announce a felid birth so soon, but lets all just keep our fingers crossed that it does survive :).
 
It is having to be fully hand fed as mum has no interest. What a supprise:mad:! Thats what u get for handleing it on the day of birth!
 
Looks like it's all kicking off on their facebook page. Lots of people unhappy about the whole handraising situation.

Welcome to Facebook

There is only one person that's actually said anything. I mentioned about it being unwise to name the cub so early, but I tried to stay neutral in opinion on the subject of handrearing.
 
Experts everywhere

You all talk like you are experts on this site.... the fact is you know nothing.
It would make me laugh if you didnt do so much damage to the whole zoo world with your incessant "expert" opinions. I see that facebook has taken the details off the site but have you looked at the support for David Gill and the comments telling you "experts" to keep your noses out. the public certainly support his actions to save a animals life when there was no other option left.

When you have done as much as South Lakes and its staff to protect and conserve Sumatran tigers then you can comment but leave this zoo out of your sad back seat comments. Davids son Indi has been in the zoo since the day he born as have his other children and is involved in everything and all of us who regualrly visit know just how dedicated he is and his family.

You all sit and make your negative contributions. but what have you all done to further conservation of species or raise over £1.5m in 14 years for Wild tiger conservation, get a life, or maybe a job and then learn that there is no specific way to do anything in life and give the staff at the park the respect they deserve for the decisions that have to be made and the success they have. they may be a zoo but they have been very succesful having another record year by doing things in a different and most peoples opinions better way than most zoos. I for one find the whole content of this web chat site fit for the kids corner.
 
You all talk like you are experts on this site.... the fact is you know nothing.
It would make me laugh if you didnt do so much damage to the whole zoo world with your incessant "expert" opinions. I see that facebook has taken the details off the site but have you looked at the support for David Gill and the comments telling you "experts" to keep your noses out. the public certainly support his actions to save a animals life when there was no other option left.

When you have done as much as South Lakes and its staff to protect and conserve Sumatran tigers then you can comment but leave this zoo out of your sad back seat comments. Davids son Indi has been in the zoo since the day he born as have his other children and is involved in everything and all of us who regualrly visit know just how dedicated he is and his family.

You all sit and make your negative contributions. but what have you all done to further conservation of species or raise over £1.5m in 14 years for Wild tiger conservation, get a life, or maybe a job and then learn that there is no specific way to do anything in life and give the staff at the park the respect they deserve for the decisions that have to be made and the success they have. they may be a zoo but they have been very succesful having another record year by doing things in a different and most peoples opinions better way than most zoos. I for one find the whole content of this web chat site fit for the kids corner.

Wow, that is quite a rant considering only two people have actually said anything in that 'debate' (and quite a generalisation, many people on here are keepers/lecturers etc, so can be considered experts [not myself unfortunatly :p]. As I've already stated, my comment wasn't a criticism, simply answering a question. Somebody asked something along the lines of: "Why would it be unwise to name the animal" and I answered along the lines of "It is considered unwise by some incase it doesn't survive." I hope that you can't see criticism in that, and I'm sorry if that is how it came across. I was simply trying to answer a question and using text isn't an easy way to do so :p. I am a supporter of South Lakes and really wish I lived near enough to visit more often, and I wish them all the best with not only the cub, but with all other projects that they have. As you may have even read earlier in this topic
I know it is unwise to announce a felid birth so soon, but lets all just keep our fingers crossed that it does survive .
was a comment that I made.

Again, I hope my answering didn't come across as a criticism. I certainly didn't mean it to, and all I can say is sorry if it did sound that way :)
 
what have you all done to further conservation of species or raise over £1.5m in 14 years for Wild tiger conservation

We pay the entrance fees and spend more money once inside the zoos. Where do you think the £1.5m given to conservation ultimately comes from? I think that entitles us to an opinion (whether that opinion is right or wrong is another debate).

I think your reaction to an opinion different to yours is overtly aggresive and suggest your energies might be better used explaining why those opinions might not be correct rather than a scatter-gun, school yard, rant. Otherwise you just come across as a blinkered zealot (see the old Cefn-yr-erw thread, if still available, to see the pointless waste of energy this attitude/approach can lead to).
 
I can see and appreciate where yorik is coming from. Generally, I do agree with his opinions on those commenting on FB or otherwise on the pros/cons of Sumatran tiger cub handrearing.

Most people - even here - do not know the full facts. It is thus hardly possible to derive a sound and even opinion based on assumptions and hearsay alone. :(

And yes ... lest people forget - South Lakes (and David Gill) - is perhaps one of the most prominent and important Sumatran tiger in situ conservation fundors around! :cool:
 
yorik said:
You all talk like you are experts on this site.... the fact is you know nothing.
It would make me laugh if you didnt do so much damage to the whole zoo world with your incessant "expert" opinions. I see that facebook has taken the details off the site but have you looked at the support for David Gill and the comments telling you "experts" to keep your noses out. the public certainly support his actions to save a animals life when there was no other option left.

When you have done as much as South Lakes and its staff to protect and conserve Sumatran tigers then you can comment but leave this zoo out of your sad back seat comments. Davids son Indi has been in the zoo since the day he born as have his other children and is involved in everything and all of us who regualrly visit know just how dedicated he is and his family.

You all sit and make your negative contributions. but what have you all done to further conservation of species or raise over £1.5m in 14 years for Wild tiger conservation, get a life, or maybe a job and then learn that there is no specific way to do anything in life and give the staff at the park the respect they deserve for the decisions that have to be made and the success they have. they may be a zoo but they have been very succesful having another record year by doing things in a different and most peoples opinions better way than most zoos. I for one find the whole content of this web chat site fit for the kids corner.
can I ask why you are even on this site if you, as you put it, "find the whole content of this web chat site fit for the kids corner"? I realise you have a vested interest in defending South Lakes but you seem intent on simply abusing the other members of the forum. Maybe if you posted some useful information that would provide answers to peoples' thoughts and questions, instead of just going off on vitriolic rants, then you might feel better.
 
We pay the entrance fees and spend more money once inside the zoos. Where do you think the £1.5m given to conservation ultimately comes from? I think that entitles us to an opinion (whether that opinion is right or wrong is another debate).

I think your reaction to an opinion different to yours is overtly aggresive and suggest your energies might be better used explaining why those opinions might not be correct rather than a scatter-gun, school yard, rant. Otherwise you just come across as a blinkered zealot (see the old Cefn-yr-erw thread, if still available, to see the pointless waste of energy this attitude/approach can lead to).
I ask myself the same question. I was invited to join a long while ago and did feel then that the content was not reasoned or balanced by real knowledge on behalf of many as i sat and read so much that i knew was not true .I am not abusing, in fact i am asking why the other members are abusing the forum by making sly comment when they actually dont have an educated view point and are simply speculators with a clear need to down some zoos. It never ceases to amaze me the amoutn of "experts" we have on this subject , this is not a viriolic rant as you put it but a reality check for all those who think that their words dont affect others who dedicate ther lives day to day with the work they do.
 
We pay the entrance fees and spend more money once inside the zoos. Where do you think the £1.5m given to conservation ultimately comes from? I think that entitles us to an opinion (whether that opinion is right or wrong is another debate).

I think your reaction to an opinion different to yours is overtly aggresive and suggest your energies might be better used explaining why those opinions might not be correct rather than a scatter-gun, school yard, rant. Otherwise you just come across as a blinkered zealot (see the old Cefn-yr-erw thread, if still available, to see the pointless waste of energy this attitude/approach can lead to).

From my understanding the £1.5 m is not from you paying entrance fees etc.as it is a private company that operates the zoo and all that goes to its operating costs. It is raised by dedicated and constant work by the staff every day during talks and special events and via regular donators and by the large personal donations of Mr Gill himself who gives his time and money to the project and has done constantly for 14 years. So whilst you may be entitled to an opinion thats fine, but it isnt because you contributed unless you put in the hard work to raise the funds as many special and generous individuals also did over this time. I think that this zoo is an example to all in that it is a privatley operated limited company, yet it is so succesful it can contribute in so many positive ways not just with tigers by the way, its other charity The Wildlife Protection foundation gave over £100,000 last year alone to its other projects in Africa, madagascar, south america etc.
my reaction to opinion is one of upset and yes sometimes anger as when i read blatently negative comment , factually incorrect or just plain wrong statements I do not feel it appropriate that these should be posted as thye simply convey the wrong image, facts and then create wrong images for others to read. so defending the zoo is something that needs to be done in these posts to recify and highlight some of the false comments and perceptions aired by people with axes to grind or simply inexperienced people who put mouth first and without any experience to back up comment. the web has become a place to critise without need to justify in every aspect of our world and zoos are no different. the blinkered zealot is the person who does not read but then calls names sir.
I have provided factual inforemation to answer the comments being made and will back them up as I am a regular visitor and supporter of the charitable works of the zoo. I certainly will not allow the good name of a very positive establishment be damaged by people who sit hidden behind computer screens and fire off loaded guns without thinking of the collateral damage and upset it causes professional staff who read it.
if you voice an opinion then give quality arguments, reasoned and balanced evidence and then a fair debate can be had. I dont see much of that on this site sadly. how many of the regular commentators on here I wonder are decision makers who have to balance it all as their job and it seems no matter which way they decide someone out there will pull them apart for it.
 
It is raised by dedicated and constant work by the staff every day during talks and special events and via regular donators and by the large personal donations of Mr Gill himself who gives his time and money to the project and has done constantly for 14 years.

And who donates at the talks, us the visitors! Additionally I don't know (as I'm not acquainted with his personal finances and where his income/wealth comes from) but it's possible that some of his donations come from income from the company (again paid by us the public). By the way, I've enjoyed the staff talks during my visits -they're very good, if arguably a little overlong.

I think that this zoo is an example to all in that it is a privatley operated limited company

I agree that what has been achieved in around 20 years, from scratch, is very impressive and wish that other collections were able to develop so rapidly in a reasonably good style. Personally I think South Lakes going into bears when no-one else was interested was a bold move which caused other places to consider and later hold them (which I am very happy about).

my reaction to opinion is one of upset and yes sometimes anger as when i read blatently negative comment , factually incorrect or just plain wrong statements I do not feel it appropriate that these should be posted as thye simply convey the wrong image, facts and then create wrong images for others to read. so defending the zoo is something that needs to be done in these posts to recify and highlight some of the false comments and perceptions aired by people with axes to grind or simply inexperienced people who put mouth first and without any experience to back up comment. the web has become a place to critise without need to justify in every aspect of our world and zoos are no different.

I agree largely with what you saying, but personally believe that, by and large, the website polices itself and inaccuracies are corrected.

the blinkered zealot is the person who does not read but then calls names sir.
I have provided factual inforemation to answer the comments being made and will back them up as I am a regular visitor and supporter of the charitable works of the zoo. I certainly will not allow the good name of a very positive establishment be damaged by people who sit hidden behind computer screens and fire off loaded guns without thinking of the collateral damage and upset it causes professional staff who read it.
if you voice an opinion then give quality arguments, reasoned and balanced evidence and then a fair debate can be had.

Absolutely agree with most of that again, especially the bold -however, your initial post which I reacted too was nearer a rant than an argued position. Additionally you have to accept that South Lakes have made, and will continue to make, mistakes and enact policies some people will disagree with (all zoos do). The mixed South American exhibit may be impressive to the general public but I understand there are inherent dangers to some of the species involved -that doesn't necessarily mean the exhibit shouldn't be done that way, but it's not unreasonable to expect differing views either.

how many of the regular commentators on here I wonder are decision makers who have to balance it all as their job and it seems no matter which way they decide someone out there will pull them apart for it.

Whilst not working in a zoo, my job includes all the factors you mention and I know it's hard balancing everything and pleasing everyone. However, I've learnt that just calling someone an idiot or fool (as your post basically did) rarely achieves anything positive.

Finally, don't take the above personally, I'm sure you're knowledgable and very passionate about South Lakes, Mr. Gill, etc. I just stepped in to pour some water on the rising flames.

Absolutely finally, contrast your reaction to fans (for want of a better word) of Twycross or Colchester, two zoos that get a lot of criticism but no-ones overreacted (yet)........
 
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I was voicing my opinion on fb. If people think I was trying to sound like an expert then fair enough. I just don't have the energy to argue any more.
 
If the mother has no interest in the cub, or if the milk supply is not plentiful then hand rearing the cub may be the only viable option. Knowing that it is a Sumatran tiger, and that there are so few left in the wild, and only about 100 in European zoos, I would expect that South Lakes would have sought confirmation from the studbook keeper to hand rear this individual before continuing, after all there would be no point hand rearing a tiger cub that was not wanted within the studbook. The fact that they bred them at all must mean that they had a breeding recommendation from the studbook. Having seen the pictures on Facebook the main concern an outsider would have would be the risk of disease transmission between the persons holding the newborn cub, and the cub itself. As we all know, the first 24-48 hours are crucial for any neonate, as this is the period in which it receives colostrum from the mother (and with it the vital antibodies required to fight infection). Exposing any newborn to possible infection would be risky, but particularly any animal which is not receiving colostrum (presumably receiving an artificial alternative). Therefore, one might expect the persons in the picture to be wearing at least some PPE.

At least that is my kids corner view of it anyway (for what it is worth)
 
Firstly I know they have had a breeding recomendation for all their Sumatran tigers ever since 1996 whatever pair they have had. Second my understanding is that the EEP was consulted and gave advice. Third what possible disease transmission are you thinking of? In the wild a cub would survive or not without anti bacterial gels and aprons on the mother. This is traditional zoo talk of over protectionism and sadly again what business is it quite honestly of any of us what tequniques are used by any zoo with their own animals, do zoos interfere in our choices in our homes with dogs and cats etc? no so why is it that so many people like to interfere with comments about a very respected zoo who has numerous excellent results with hand rearing of rare animals , in particular of note Babirusa where the same people have reared more than any other zoo in Europe in the past years. I would like to think that we could let them get on with it in any way they seek fit and whether a child has the wonderful experience of holding a tiger cub or the keeper or the owner in the process of saving its life and feeding it is for them to decide and give them respect to know all the posibilities and allow them to do a vital job without critisism by people who certainly do not have the expertise to do the same.
the sad part about the web is its ability to feed and support negative comments about everything rather than give support and thought to the people left to do the job every2 hours throught he day and night. by the way she is doing great by the latest post.
 
I think that you are over reacting to Blossom's perfectly reasonable post. You are showing your own ignorance regarding possible infections. Of course in the wild there is no antibacterial gel etc, but then many baby tigers die early. The whole point of hand-rearing is to maximize its chances of survival.

If you think the previous poster (along with the rest of us) does not deserve to have their opinion listened to, then why should anyone listen to yours? You undermine your own position. If someone has their facts wrong, then educate them, don't rant.
 
Firstly I know they have had a breeding recomendation for all their Sumatran tigers ever since 1996 whatever pair they have had. Second my understanding is that the EEP was consulted and gave advice. Third what possible disease transmission are you thinking of? In the wild a cub would survive or not without anti bacterial gels and aprons on the mother. This is traditional zoo talk of over protectionism and sadly again what business is it quite honestly of any of us what tequniques are used by any zoo with their own animals, do zoos interfere in our choices in our homes with dogs and cats etc? no so why is it that so many people like to interfere with comments about a very respected zoo who has numerous excellent results with hand rearing of rare animals , in particular of note Babirusa where the same people have reared more than any other zoo in Europe in the past years. I would like to think that we could let them get on with it in any way they seek fit and whether a child has the wonderful experience of holding a tiger cub or the keeper or the owner in the process of saving its life and feeding it is for them to decide and give them respect to know all the posibilities and allow them to do a vital job without critisism by people who certainly do not have the expertise to do the same.
the sad part about the web is its ability to feed and support negative comments about everything rather than give support and thought to the people left to do the job every2 hours throught he day and night. by the way she is doing great by the latest post.

A few points from my perspective:
- 'In the wild a cub would survive or not without anti bacterial gels and aprons on the mother' - i find this irrelevant to the most part. We are not on about wild conditions, this is about zoo's doing the best they can to raise animals sucessfully ... if this requires antibacterials etc then so be it. surely it is better to have this and raise healthy animals then to potentially expose the animals to dangerous diseases.
- 'This is traditional zoo talk of over protectionism and sadly again what business is it quite honestly of any of us what tequniques are used by any zoo with their own animals' - There is nothing wrong with this 'over proectionism', Im all for giving the public an awe inspiring contact with wildlife but not with such risks. You are arguing against genuine concerns not 'over protectionism' as if some extravagent dillusional idealology.
- 'give them respect to know all the posibilities and allow them to do a vital job without critisism by people who certainly do not have the expertise to do the same' - the whole point of this forum is to discuss and debate idea's. This doesn't mean just letting zoo's to get on with it, many people on here have valid and informed opinions. I think it unwise to simply discount ideas that could be coming from an relevant expert (we do not know the people behind the usernames and therefore we cannot disregard their statements).
- And finally, it is good to here the cub is doing well :D
 
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