White Lions and Tigers - Yay or Nay

captive tiger programs

This debate could go on forever. I never said that captive programs have no value. Certain species have benefitted from them. They have served as a justification for many zoos to exist. They tell the public what they want to hear without taking real conservation strides. They grasp at straws in trying to make the argument

White tigers do have a place and role in conservation.
 
ptig said:
I never said that captive programs have no value.
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captive breeding programs per se? no you didn't. and i never implied you did. what i did do however was respond to your very clear statements that big cat breeding programs specifically offer no conservation benefit other than that of education, unless of course this can be taken any other way....

ptig said:
I have to disagree with portions of Patrick's recent post. There seems to be a confusion about breeding tigers or lions in captive situations as being a conservation effort. Captive tigers, for instance will never be returned to the wild in any meaningful way, just is not going to happen. Zoos have hidden under the cover of endangered species programs for far too long.

There are exceptions with certain species but big cats are not among them.

The value of captive tigers or lions is to raise awareness and funds for in-situ conservation. White tigers and lions are probably even better draws and as such better at raising funds and getting attention to issues.
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but to ask you a question relating to this last statement...

ptig said:
White tigers do have a place and role in conservation.
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can i ask what is it white tigers (or any other non mutant or hybrid) offer conservation that say a purebred tiger doesn't? the way i see it. purebreds offer all the educational benefits of white hybrid bengals as well as the bonus of also preserving the genetic integrity of their race and species.

see, like i said if a tiger race ever goes the way of the amur leopard captive purebreds can be called apon to contribute their genetics. white tigers however offer very little in this scenario.

thats why your employer, dreamworld, is phasing out its hybrid tigers (be they white, tabby or otherwise) in favour of sumatran tigers. is this not something you support?
 
Just a small point,

patrick said:
(and it probably will be just a little bit with less than ten captive founders!)
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I thought there was 17 founding Tigers..?

patrick said:
thats why your employer, dreamworld, is phasing out its hybrid tigers (be they white, tabby or otherwise) in favour of sumatran tigers. is this not something you support?
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I didn't know this... Is it confirmed..? That is great news, they have room for a lot of Tigers don't they..?
 
Hope I don't sound like a cracked record saying this over and over, but isn't there some way that the region can get fresh sumatran tiger blood from Indonesian zoos? (Animal exchange or something ?)
 
NZ Jeremy said:
I thought there was 17 founding Tigers..?
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actually jeremy, i'm not 100% sure. i have read there were 8 original founders but then have also read its more like 18. in any event there is not much eh?

Ara - melbourne tried years ago, but obviously gave up. i don't think the indonesians are too keen on sharing their animals with international breeding programs. usually there is a bit of "we can preserve our own animals" pride involved. currently the international program for javan (silvery) gibbons is stalling due to the same issues...
 
patrick said:
actually jeremy, i'm not 100% sure. i have read there were 8 original founders but then have also read its more like 18. in any event there is not much eh?
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Very true, especially if the management was not spectacular from the out set...

ZooPro said:
Watch this space.....;)
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Gotta love a place that has the inside word..!
 
White tigers

@Patrick- Dreamworld does not have plans to phase out current Bengal tigers. Not sure where you got that one. Dreamworld supports both the Sumatran program and the current Bengal Tiger Island as do I.
 
ptig said:
Dreamworld does not have plans to phase out current Bengal tigers
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the idea behind "phase-outs" is that it doesn't affect the "current" animals ptig.

but if what your saying is that tiger island intends on breeding its hybrid bengals, then geeze!! now thats a shame, i had thought that when dreamworld imported a breeding pair of sumatran tigers the aim was to eventually, via attrition, replace all the "bengals" with more valuable purebred sumatran tigers. now i know otherwise, i'm really disappointed. i guess all those spaces would have been pretty valuable to the sumatran tiger breeding program (something australia's zoos are well known for being active participants in) long-term.

so tell me, have there ever been reports of "tabby" tigers in the wild?
 
You think animals which are severely inbred and are taking the place of endangered animals have their place in a serious zoological institution..?

I disagree...

Could it have something to do with the fact you work at a place with these animals..?
 
I haven't been to Dreamworld. Is "tiger island" basically a show area for tourists to get their photos taken with the cats or is it a whole section of enclosures?

If its the former then it makes sense for the place to get Sumatrans for breeding and just keep the trash cats (white, hybrid, whatever) for the tourist interaction. But they certainly couldn't pretend that the hybrids or whites had any sort of conservation value.
 
ptig,

would it be safe for me to suggest your saying "white and hybrid tigers still educate people and can raise conservation dollars?"

because i'm not arguing with that.

what i'm saying is that there is nothing a hybrid or mutant cat can do for education/conservation awareness that a purebred can't. and a purebred has the added benefit of contributing to the preservation of its subspecies genetics.

i'm not expecting dreamworld to go out an euthanise half its tigers either. just stop breeding them.
 
White tigers

As someone that knows a little about displaying tigers, working with tigers, and doing assorted other activities with them there is a difference. I would not expect others to understand who are not closely across the subject, Believe me when I say that white tigers gather greater audiences and attract more public donations towards conservation than Sumatran tigers.

Dreamworld will have donated one million dollars towards tiger conservation by the middle of this year. People come to see tigers and white tigers are of interest to the average zoo/theme park goer. Having talked to a few million people over the years I have a pretty good handle on what visitors think.

The spaces some of you are referring to were not intended to be for the Sumatrans in the program. Tiger Island was originally built with 14 off exhibit enclosures for the Bengals. Spaces have been added and some of those have been allocated for program animals. Dreramworld is a serious zoological institution that does more for tiger conservation than almost any other company or zoo in the world. Sounds pretty serious to me!
 
ptig said:
As someone that knows a little about displaying tigers, working with tigers, and doing assorted other activities with them there is a difference. I would not expect others to understand who are not closely across the subject, Believe me when I say that white tigers gather greater audiences and attract more public donations towards conservation than Sumatran tigers.
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Really..? Do you have a single fact or figure back this up..? The Sumatran Tigers are by FAR the biggest attraction at Auckland Zoo, have you worked at any other instutition that has Whites v. Sumatrans or figures to back up these claims..? I think not...

ptig said:
Having talked to a few million people over the years I have a pretty good handle on what visitors think.
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I realise this is an exageration but if your wan't to be taken seriously don't randomly make up numbers and facts...

ptig said:
Dreramworld is a serious zoological institution that does more for tiger conservation than almost any other company or zoo in the world. Sounds pretty serious to me!
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Once again, anyone can make random generalisations but do you have any sources you can cite..? Any figures to back what you say up..? I'd be suprised... Your argument isn't convincing me so far...
 
I think i have to agree with ptig- really look everyone- we are zoo-freaks, some of us i personally belive like ptig and zoopro, are zoo professionals, and as professionals can not state who or what they perceisely work for and do. then there is a thrid ignorant zoo perosn- zoo average joe, who is out to see the werid and wonderful cretures that ihabit this earth, and the ones that really make them look are variations on species- whites tigers, king cheetah and pink elephants.

And if the avergae joe wants to see white animals- why not let them - whilst really abusing them, ripping all there money on over priced photo ops and stufffed animals representing zoo freak shows- zoos then funnel all this money into conservation projects that ptig has mentioned.

Quite simply, there may be no edu value in white animals, but as media relation and money getting animals- great! If a single institute can get a million bux for in-situ conservation work- who are we to judge.

Dreamworld has these aniamls in displays, but off exhibit, are endamgered sumatrans! BREEDING sumatrans. The money from the whites, has gone also in to regionally devloping porgrams. How many other zoos do you know have the resources to house breeding animals of this calibure and resource draining permentally off-exhibit- NONE.

I think if a zoo can raise money, and even get through to a few people that tigers are endagered great! Even if it uses whites!

Now before you start picking the **** out of me just think about it.
 
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