White Lions and Tigers - Yay or Nay

Hey Zoo Boy I understand where you're coming from but as you say:

Zoo_Boy said:
zoo average joe, who is out to see the werid and wonderful cretures that ihabit this earth,
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A tiger is a weird and wonderful creature to the average zoo visitor, (indeed to myself) you seem to think the average zoo visitor is looking for something pretty, etc... Do you really think they'll be more impressed by a white tiger than a Sumatran, especially if they have never seen any tigers before..?

I don't, I've seen how they don't at my local zoo, when you factor in the inbreeding/crossbreeding and limited space at zoos I think keeping white tigers is a fools erand, it is nothing more than the fact humans found one white tiger over a half a century ago, purposefully and immeaditely inbred it for nothing more than power and curiousity's sake...

I'm still waiting for some facts to back the "white tigers superior donation power" too...
 
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White tigers

Quite frankly Jeremy I am not interested in convincing you. Dreamworld is unique in handling tigers and as a result I have a pretty good insight into what the differences are. Maybe you have knowledge that I am not aware of.

Dreamworld has two white tigers and when neither one is on display within 15 minutes someone will ask where the white tiger is? Sounds to me like there is a bit of interest.
 
ptig said:
Quite frankly Jeremy I am not interested in convincing you.
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Well that is quite a sad attitude, I'm happy to change my mind but so far you haven't given me a single reason to do so apart from assuring me white tigers earn more donations with not a single fact to back it up...

ptig said:
Dreamworld is unique in handling tigers and as a result I have a pretty good insight into what the differences are. Maybe you have knowledge that I am not aware of.
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I haven't been asserting that Dreamworld don't have an excellent husbandry record in fact I've heard nothing but good things about their care... How they are looked after isn't the debate here...

ptig said:
Dreamworld has two white tigers and when neither one is on display within 15 minutes someone will ask where the white tiger is? Sounds to me like there is a bit of interest.
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Funny because when the Sumatran's are put away at Auckland Zoo people are usually asking within the first few minutes where they are..? Hmmm...
 
Zoo_Boy, what you say makes a lot of sense!

Jeremy, there are two main types of contributors to this forum; professional animal people like ZooPro and ptig, and the others; upstarts like you (and me) who are crazy about animals, but who don't really work with them for a living. (I assume you don't?)

In other words; professionals and amateurs.

I've got to say that I oppose handling tigers the way that Dreamworld does. I believe that, sooner or later, there is going to be a serious accident - BUT as someone who has opposed ptig on this forum before, I respect his professionalism.

You, Jeremy, are showing a lack of respect with your public scepticism over ptig's estimate of Dreamworld's financial contribution to tiger conservation. I'm sure that the amount is not exaggerated and could be verified without too much difficulty.
 
Hey Ara, I most definitely don't work with animals for a living (if you check my profile I work the NZ Police, althoug sometimes I consider it working with animals)...

I also oppose any contact handling of big cats, I personally think places like Australia Zoo, Zion Wildlife Gardens and Dreamworld are time bombs with no clock (but I don't feel this is the argument here)...

I dont mean to show any disrespect for ptig estimates, I sincerely apologise if I've come across that way but:

a). I don't think Sumatrans would generate any less donations, and

b). If it is so easy to demonstrate all I want is a link to be provided to change my mind...

I'm just asking for some statistics...

For example I don't believe white tigers should be kept due to inbreeding as shown here:

White Tigers; History, Breeding, and Genetics

Tigers: White Siberian Tiger

The first link says Mohan bred with one of his granddaughters and the second say one of his daughters, either way I don’t think this is a good platform for a breeding program especially one that was been going 56 years…

I don’t believe white tigers should kept due to cross breeding:

Big Cat News: Marcan promoting white tiger breed

Anyway I’ll step back, I haven’t meant to offend or belittle anyone, I again apologise if I’ve come across that way…
 
You can argue the conservation of value all day.

I still think a white tiger skin would look geat in front of my fireplace :eek:;););)
 
White tiger again

I too respect the opinion of varying people quite a few on this forum who do not know the ins and outs of zoos and secondly those working at zoos who do not have any experience or insight into working with big cats.

I will be the first to comment about places like Zion wildlife Gardens. I took my air sickness bag and watched a few episodes last week. I have no respect for his practices, facilities, or mis-information that comes out out of the place.

Dreamworld and the place I worked previously in California has had a Tiger Island since 1971 and Dreamworld since 1995. There has never been a life threatening injury. There have been bites and scratches for sure and we never take it for granted. I feel that the benefits for the cats in terms of husbandry, enrichment, guests seeing something different to the average zoo, and conservation in terms of creating interest and funding are worth it. It certainly though is not for every facility as it takes large resources in terms of manpower, training, and experience.

Back to Jeremy's argument about people at Auckland asking about the tigers once they are off-exhibit. Sure tigers are a popular animal. I work with two Sumatran cubs that are 10 months old. They are both fantastic animals and eventually will go to other facilities and will be missed by all of the staff.

However the average zoo goer does not fully appreciate the difference and likes to see big tigers and white ones even better. This may not be the scientific analysis that you were wanting but lots of guests make comments as we are with the cats all day long.

I know to the dollar how much has been raised and sent to assorted projects. I would love to see other government zoos fund significant tiger projects abd there are some that do a better job but regrettably I frequently hear them trumpet that they support Sumatran Conservation without doing anything in-situ. I find this less than genuine.
 
Just to drop my two pennies worth into this rather heated discussion... I am what posters here call a zoo amateur. I go to many zoos, look at the animals, enjoy seeing unusual species/subspecies etc. I am not in the employ of any of these institutions.

I have seen many white tigers in zoos - particularly foreign zoos - and yes they are magnificent animals to look at. But if a key reason for having zoos/wildlife parks/safari parks in the modern age is to hold insurance populations of endangered species - to breed them, to (hopefully) reintroduce them at some point - then I don't accept the arguement that zoos should use valuable space and resources holding white tigers primarily because they may attract larger donations than 'pure' sumatrans or amurs or bengals etc. It is the pure ones we need to concentrate on.

In tiger populations in the wild the odd white tiger will be born but probably won't live as long as a 'normal' tiger and will have less chance of passing on its genes. This tells us that white tigers are of no value in breeding terms - white tigers cannot form part of a sustainable wild population (and that is what we must try to achieve, rather than simply viewing current wild populations as a lost cause and seeing captive tigers as PR tools for zoos).
 
Hey ptig I've just read back over the last two pages and I have been an overly aggressive arse... Sorry for that...

While I still don't agree, by re-reading and with a bit of reflection (I considered how I'd feel if I knew nothing at all about the history, breeding etc of whites and Sumatran's), and if I was deciding where to go from this frame of mind I can say I might be more inclined to go see whites ergo pumping more money into facilities with these animals which they would then hopefully use for conservation...

As I said I don't agree and personally think the institutions and directors should know better but you have helped me see another perspective...
 
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I used to be in love with White tigers, not so much any more, more of a fan of the Siberians and sumatrans now, but did love seeing the whites at dreamworld a few years ago. I think now though that white lions have more of an appeal to the general public and despite what others think of them, they are good for business. I'd prefer to see a white lion now over a tiger, just something about them.
 
White tigers

Jeremy. I get pretty passionate about the whole thing as well. Everybody has an opinion and that is the way it should be. I have always felt comfortable about what we do with the cats and am proud of our achievements. The zoo industry will always have factions and divisions much of the time created through lack of understanding but that is the way of the world.

Regards
 
ptig said:
I have always felt comfortable about what we do with the cats and am proud of our achievements.
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Hey well thats the bottom line in life, I say to myself, "If you can sleep well at night, you must be doing something right..!"
 
ptig said:
Believe me when I say that white tigers gather greater audiences and attract more public donations towards conservation than Sumatran tigers.
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i think people ask where the white tigers are becuse they already know dreamworld have them and thus expect to see them. i think if dreamworld didn't have them then people wouldn't ask and would just enjoy the sumatrans.

nonetheless, i'm not trying to strike up an argument on the integrity of dreamworld here. like jeremy, i think the free-contact scenario is dangerous, but am not going to deny it is undoubtably the attraction that allows dreamworld to raise so much conservation dollars.

i guess i would have just liked it if ALL their tigers had some genetic value, and i question the practise of creating whites hybrids.

anyhow, and i mean this quite honestly...

if dreamworld are as you say ptig, planning on continuing to display bengals hybrids and colour mutations of such, are they planning on breeding or acquiring any more tigers for such purposes. doesn't dreamworld have just one female bengal hybrid left?

they haven't had any purebred cubs for awhile.

and secondly, whats the plans with the sumatran pair. will dreamworld be producing more cubs from this animals, maybe mother-reared this time, to supply the ARAZPA zoo breeding program with these different bloodlines? i imagine dreamworld will not be sending its current sumatran cubs into the program due to the heavy investment associated with training them.
 
white tigers

Patrick- I will leave the stuff that we will just not agree on. Quite frankly I have lost interest.

We will follow recommendations from the Tag. We imported both of our adult tigers from German zoos and have bred them once and will most likely breed them at least one more time. We hand-rear all of our tigers and any new cubs will be the same. Much better way of doing it for numerous reasons.

The current Sumatran cubs are slated to go to other institutions and we will follow recommendations. Of course we have invested a tremendous amount of time in them but going in knew they would be required elsewhere. No arguments about it.

We will hopefully also breed our Bengal female in the future.
 
Panthera-leo said:
i think its pretty horrible that you are calling any tigers "trash".
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Agreed!

I am no professional, just a zoo visitor, but whenever I've seen white tigers or lions they have always been a HUGE attraction. West Midland Safari Park in the UK both, and I feel it has put them on the zoo map - I'd barely heard of the place until they acquired white lions, now they keep and breed these animals they get masses of publicity and lots more visitors! The same collection has recently had breeding success with Common Hippos and African Hunting Dogs... but I only know about that because I check their website fairly often.

I think that the white tigers and lions are beautiful - and IMO, any animal that draws people into a zoo, is a good thing. The additional money that their presence will raise can then be put to good use, e.g. building better enclosures, supporting conservation projects in the field, and as in the case of West Midlands, acquiring endangered species that are not really 'crowd-pullers'.

However, as much as I love these cats, I really do cringe when they're tagged with the word conservation. That Lion Man in Australia(?) is pretty bad for that - his TV show really is putting out a terrible message. I don't see any conservation value on what he does at all, but maybe he does stuff I don't know about!?
 
Hey Sand cat, I said I was finished but The 'Lion "Man" is from NZ and his park is quite poor and focuses purely on breeding "mutant"or recessive gene cats... Have a look at the thread entitled "Lion Man" for more details...

Panther-Leo has also posted many pics of this park...
 
Those photos of Zion Wildlife Park make it seem like all of the big cat enclosures are chain-link fences with little enrichment. NZ Jeremy has already commented on the state of the park, and Panthera-leo's photos are well taken but illustrate the barren-like exhibits.
 
ptig said:
Patrick- I will leave the stuff that we will just not agree on. Quite frankly I have lost interest.
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thanks for the response ptig. i too feel its time to drop the conversation, though clearly you lost interest in it long before me.

i'm surprised dreamworld is sending its trained tigers to other zoos (especially if it is a permanent or semi-premanent thing) since they invested so heavily in training them. i would have thought a good system that kept everyone happy is that the theme park simply breed mother-reared tigers for the program but breed "extra" tigers for their own requirements.

however, i suppose tiger cubs on display are a big attraction, so hand-rearing all cubs, regardless of whether they will eventually be donated to the sumatran breeding program makes it a nevertheless worthwhile investment for dreamworld.
 
Sumtran tigers for program

Clearly Patrick you won the interest contest. There is not difference from the point of the program whether they are hand reared or not. My fervent belief though is that hand reared animals are better for a variety of reasons which include ease of transport, settling in period, and husbandry associated activities.
 
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