Mad Scientist Moment

Javan Rhino

Javan Rhino

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
I've had a mad moment, but it's so mad it might just work :D.
We all know, with such a small population of Javan rhinoceros' (40-50 R. sondaicus sondaicus, and less than 12 R. sondaicus annamiticus) and because the 'sondaicus' population is under threat from a volcano on their site, there is a need to maintain an insurance population in zoos. But the small population again hinders when you realise even removing a single animal is likely to be a problem. So, my mad moment:

Could conservationists looking after either of these populations in the wild find a way to take sperm from a wild male, and an egg from a wild female. If the egg could be impregnated out of a womb using modern science, could it then be implanted into a female Indian rhinoceros (since they are genetically very similar), with the Indian rhinoceros acting as surrogate? Is this IVF, and how well would it work?

Also, I know that there is the problem of Indian rhinos being a threatened species, and that zoos should not be using valuable females for anything other than breeding Indian rhinoceros. However, they are listed as 'Vulnerable' and desperate times call for desperate measures. Surely, if this could ever work, one or two zoos could participate, whilst other zoos keep the Indian population going as strong as possible. Of course, if we could get 5-10 calves this way we could try for natural births, but we need that foothold if we are to get a secure population in captivity, and I think taking animals from the wild is the very last resort.

So, what do you all think? Could it work, would it be physically possible, has it been tried before and failed? Could an Indian rhino act as surrogate, or would it reject the embryo/whatever is implanted? Gotta be worth a shot if there is no good reason not to?
 
"Mad" is certainly the word for it.

Collecting ova from a wild female would be just about impossible. An Indian surrogate would be more plausible, almost. Collecting semen would be easier, but still hugely invasive.

But there's a philosophical aspect here that I want to raise too. It's one thing to preserve the genes of the Javan rhinoceros. But the species is more than just its genes. It is also the ecological niche that it occupies, as well as the learned behaviours that are transmitted not genetically, but through interaction between cow and calf. There are plenty of examples of animals that never successfully mated in captivity due in large part because they never had the opportunity to "learn" to be their own species.

Finally, I have an objection on utilitarian grounds. Even if it were simply to remove the entire population to other parks less threatened by natural disaster (though I think this would be an extreme step), that would be a much less grandiose and ambitious undertaking than this sort of thing. When conservation resources are scarce, you have to use them wisely.
 
When you say about collecting ova to be impossible, but using an Indian as a surrogate would, do you mean hybridization, since that isn't what I meant :o

As for collecting an ova, what makes this impossible? I'm not sure, but I think it is IVF I'm speaking of. We can extract ova from other species, would it just be trying to access a wild female and the danger of having to sedate?

I agree it is not ideal, but I really want to see an ex-situ insurance population, since people are not learning and they are still being poached in the wild. We could move them around and create new wild populations, but the poaching will always remain :(. I think with modern husbandary skills, it would be easy enough for experienced zoos to care for them (I think I read somewhere that if a zoo is successful with Indian rhinos, it would be successful with Javans, but it is getting that foothold to get a captive population that is the hurdle in an ex-situ insurance group).
 
Javan Rhino said:
I've had a mad moment, but it's so mad it might just work :D.
We all know, with such a small population of Javan rhinoceros' (40-50 R. sondaicus sondaicus, and less than 12 R. sondaicus annamiticus) and because the 'sondaicus' population is under threat from a volcano on their site, there is a need to maintain an insurance population in zoos. But the small population again hinders when you realise even removing a single animal is likely to be a problem. So, my mad moment:

Could conservationists looking after either of these populations in the wild find a way to take sperm from a wild male, and an egg from a wild female. If the egg could be impregnated out of a womb using modern science, could it then be implanted into a female Indian rhinoceros (since they are genetically very similar), with the Indian rhinoceros acting as surrogate? Is this IVF, and how well would it work?

Also, I know that there is the problem of Indian rhinos being a threatened species, and that zoos should not be using valuable females for anything other than breeding Indian rhinoceros. However, they are listed as 'Vulnerable' and desperate times call for desperate measures. Surely, if this could ever work, one or two zoos could participate, whilst other zoos keep the Indian population going as strong as possible. Of course, if we could get 5-10 calves this way we could try for natural births, but we need that foothold if we are to get a secure population in captivity, and I think taking animals from the wild is the very last resort.

So, what do you all think? Could it work, would it be physically possible, has it been tried before and failed? Could an Indian rhino act as surrogate, or would it reject the embryo/whatever is implanted? Gotta be worth a shot if there is no good reason not to?
Click to expand...


Short Answer: No.

It's possible but the incredibly high costs, risk to the individuals and the fact that Rhinoceros A.I. is in its absolute infancy make it a ridiculous proposition.

Also there are at most 0.3 annamiticus all of which are believed to be of post reproductive age. The current plan to increase the viable population is moving forward nicely.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Short Answer: No.

It's possible but the incredibly high costs, risk to the individuals and the fact that Rhinoceros A.I. is in its absolute infancy make it a ridiculous proposition.

Also there are at most 0.3 annamiticus all of which are believed to be of post reproductive age. The current plan to increase the viable population is moving forward nicely.
Click to expand...

Awww, I knew there was no hope for annamiticus, but I didn't know it was that low :(. It is a shame it can't happen (I assume the risk factor to the individuals is the need to sedate them?).

Glad the plan to increase the viable population is moving forward nicely, and hopefully there might be a second chance for us to save at least one subspecies of this fantastic animal.
 
Javan Rhino said:
When you say about collecting ova to be impossible, but using an Indian as a surrogate would, do you mean hybridization, since that isn't what I meant :o

As for collecting an ova, what makes this impossible? I'm not sure, but I think it is IVF I'm speaking of. We can extract ova from other species, would it just be trying to access a wild female and the danger of having to sedate?

I agree it is not ideal, but I really want to see an ex-situ insurance population, since people are not learning and they are still being poached in the wild. We could move them around and create new wild populations, but the poaching will always remain :(. I think with modern husbandary skills, it would be easy enough for experienced zoos to care for them (I think I read somewhere that if a zoo is successful with Indian rhinos, it would be successful with Javans, but it is getting that foothold to get a captive population that is the hurdle in an ex-situ insurance group).
Click to expand...

The typical zoo enthusiast!

Are you sure you don't want to see an "insurance population" just because you would like to see one?

Why go to the expense to export rhino to zoos only to reintroduce their offspring (when translocation of “wild” animals would stand a much higher chance of success and cost a fraction of the amount)?

The important thing is to see some growth in the viable population. Poaching certainly isn’t the issue with this species. Your other points are at best speculation!
 
Javan Rhino said:
Awww, I knew there was no hope for annamiticus, but I didn't know it was that low :(. It is a shame it can't happen (I assume the risk factor to the individuals is the need to sedate them?).

Glad the plan to increase the viable population is moving forward nicely, and hopefully there might be a second chance for us to save at least one subspecies of this fantastic animal.
Click to expand...

This species has a more secure future than the Sumatran Rhinoceros.
 
Javan Rhino said:
Could conservationists looking after either of these populations in the wild find a way to take sperm from a wild male, and an egg from a wild female. If the egg could be impregnated out of a womb using modern science, could it then be implanted into a female Indian rhinoceros (since they are genetically very similar), with the Indian rhinoceros acting as surrogate? Is this IVF, and how well would it work?
Click to expand...

Practically, it's extremely difficult, and scientifically, it's still the stuff of the future. IVF is the process of fertilisation 'outside the womb'; in order to do this, several eggs will be needed to choose from. Assuming that the eggs are fertile and sperm completely normal (i.e. high number of fertile sperm with low number of mutations), and assuming the egg is fertilised successfully and that the embryo can be kept alive successfully before implantation; the issue then comes of implanting it into the female Indian rhino. The rhino has to be at the right stage of the menstrual cycle, and the embryo has to be implanted in the wall of the uterus. There is a high risk of failure at this point. Even though both rhino species are 'genetically very similar', don't forget that they're still different species. Even in humans, things like blood type differences might have effects on the likelihood of a successful pregnancy, and the immune system is designed/has evolved to identify and destroy foreign bodies, sometimes even attacking the body itself. A couple of cells from a different species are incredibly likely to be destroyed. To give you an idea, IVF success rates (successful pregnancies following IVF treatment) are currently around 70% - in humans, after many years of research & experience and following matching of the embryo to the mother (at least they're the same species.) Scientifically, there is very little chance of success for such a project with our current knowledge and experience.
What I would instead suggest would be cloning the Javan Rhinos (you might only need a hair/skin/dung sample to obtain the DNA) and implant the nucleus in an Indian rhino's ovum - but now we're venturing into the realm of science fiction, again, there's almost no chance of this working either with our current knowledge.
 
Maybe we can find some mosquitoes with Javan Rhino blood in their stomach and then use the DNA to create new ones.....

:p sorry, just couldn't resist it......

I think the reasons this is for all practical purposes impossible have all been spelt our here already - in the first instance even finding/ capturing a female would be difficult enough (almost all recent pictures are from camera traps at night) - even some researchers who analyse DNA from dung to gauge numbers, etc have never actually seen a rhino.
 
Told you it was mad :p.

Seriously though, I didn't realise how much more advanced our science would need to be and stuff. Worth asking though :).


I'll be fair, I would love to see a Javan rhinoceros, but that isn't why I asked the question (it truly was for conservation reasons, you gotta believe me). I would suggest that if it were done it would be with a facility as close as possible (even possibly sending an Indian rhinoceros over to Indonesia), so I still wouldn't see one, but would feel more comfortable knowing there was a populaion where poachers couldn't get their hands on one. Poaching is still happening, and no matter where in the wild they are poachers will still be able to get them? Translocating animals to other national parks would fragment the population, which as you see is what I was trying to avoid.

Out of interest, how is the Sumatran in more trouble when their numbers are higher? Is it just that their habitat is being destroyed quicker?
 
Javan Rhino said:
Told you it was mad :p.

Seriously though, I didn't realise how much more advanced our science would need to be and stuff. Worth asking though :).


I'll be fair, I would love to see a Javan rhinoceros, but that isn't why I asked the question (it truly was for conservation reasons, you gotta believe me). I would suggest that if it were done it would be with a facility as close as possible (even possibly sending an Indian rhinoceros over to Indonesia), so I still wouldn't see one, but would feel more comfortable knowing there was a populaion where poachers couldn't get their hands on one. Poaching is still happening, and no matter where in the wild they are poachers will still be able to get them? Translocating animals to other national parks would fragment the population, which as you see is what I was trying to avoid.

Out of interest, how is the Sumatran in more trouble when their numbers are higher? Is it just that their habitat is being destroyed quicker?
Click to expand...

Poaching is all most non-existant in Ujong Kulon.

Population size doesnt reflect the rate of decline.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Poaching is all most non-existant in Ujong Kulon.

Population size doesnt reflect the rate of decline.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was Cat Tien the one I read about recently then (and in fact, I think it was, but I know there was at least one recently). One doesn't sound like many, I know, but if it had been Ujong Kulon then they are all important.

At your second point, good point :). I personally hope both species make it, but we'll have to wait and see :).
 
I do too. In april 2000 I was told that there was "no hope" to save the Sumatran Rhinoceros The following September Andalas was born.

Unfortunatly I fear that the person who said that to me was right.
 
Are Cincinnati still breeding (or at least trying to?) I know they had [is it three calves]? But is that all they can get, or is it a non-breeding group?
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Cincinnati lost Emi the breeding female in September last year (she did indeed produce 2.1 calves).
Click to expand...

That is sad news :(. Does this mean that there are no breeding females in captivity now?

Also, are there any male rhinos that aren't related to Emi's female calf? If not, then what do you think will happen? Seems to me there are three options if there are no other breeding females anywhere:

1) Bring in more from the wild (not ideal) to try and reboot the breeding program.

2) Release all captive Sumatran rhinos into the wild (expensive and risky, probably wouldn't happen), so that we are not holding back valuable animals that could be breeding in the wild.

3) Keep them as they are until the captive population dies out. We lose a few that could be breeding in the wild, but it would raise awareness and hopefully build funds that can go towards in-situ conservation.
 
Javan Rhino said:
Could it work
Click to expand...

Hi Javan Rhino,

The procedure would be sensible, if veterinary biology of rhinos was as well known as eg. cattle.

Practically it is impossible, because catching and sedation of wild rhinos (to collect eggs and sperm) is very risky for their health. Also, AI and artifical reproduction of Indian Rhinos is poorly known.

Several other comments in the line "better do nothing" "philosophically better let them die" are bad covering of doing nothing.
 
Jurek7 said:
Hi Javan Rhino,

The procedure would be sensible, if veterinary biology of rhinos was as well known as eg. cattle.

Practically it is impossible, because catching and sedation of wild rhinos (to collect eggs and sperm) is very risky for their health. Also, AI and artifical reproduction of Indian Rhinos is poorly known.
Click to expand...

Too true :(. If the wild population is moving forward as has been said, then there is no reason to put in captivity for now (unless we want to get some as insurance).
 
Javan Rhino said:
That is sad news :(. Does this mean that there are no breeding females in captivity now?

Also, are there any male rhinos that aren't related to Emi's female calf? If not, then what do you think will happen?
Click to expand...


There are several threads discussing the problem Cincinnati have since the death of Emi, and what should be done to allow them to continue breeding. Nothing much has been added recently as there is not much to report at present but they will give you the bigger picture.

Look under 'Sumatran Rhino' in this section, and/or 'Cincinnati Zoo' in the US forums, or any that mention Emi, Andalas or Way Kambas too.;)
 
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