Highland Wildlife Park Hwp 2010

[Julz]

Might not be entirely relevant to this discussion, but when I was there last they were building several shelters in the main reserve. I couldn't say if they had floors or not, but they were quite substantial size wise. There was at least one being build in the first part of the reserve where the deer, bison and wild horses are and another round the other side where the Kiang moved from the front reserve are. There was also a large pile of wood similar to what they were building with at the back of the reserve as well.

I just remembered I forgot to say on my visit report that one of the female Bison is going to Romania next year as part of a re-introduction plan.

 

[Pertinax]

I believe that the Urial sheep are all gone .

They are not listed on the animal species sections of their website now.

I suspect keeping all these 'mountain' (their description) and other foreign ungulate species may be somewhat in the nature of an experiment. Any that succumb will not be kept again, and they will concentrate on those that show they can do well there.

 

[tetrapod]

They are not listed on the animal species sections of their website now.

I suspect keeping all these 'mountain' (their description) and other foreign ungulate species may be somewhat in the nature of an experiment. Any that succumb will not be kept again, and they will concentrate on those that show they can do well there.

Quite an expensive and wasteful experiment! Strange that the sheep didn't do well given that they had mouflon in the main paddock for years.

 

[Pertinax]

Quite an expensive and wasteful experiment! Strange that the sheep didn't do well given that they had mouflon in the main paddock for years.

Experiment mightn't have been the best word choice, but I suspect that if these species die out they won't try them a 2nd time. I don't know the exact reasons behind these losses but yes, they seem a costly failure.

 

[hedigerfan]

This discussion has some similarities to how some/most of the anti-zoo groups operate: come up with all kinds of arguments why it isn't working, but God forbid you actually contact the zoo and ask a straight question. This is supposed to be a pro-zoo group and I am pretty confident that if the caller identified him/herself, they would get an honest answer if you asked about these species. I have just checked the web site and the telephone number is 01540 651 270; call and ask for the person in charge of the animal department and see what happens. Unless of course it's just too much fun continuing to guess at causes and the facts might just get in the way?

 

[Julz]

This discussion has some similarities to how some/most of the anti-zoo groups operate: come up with all kinds of arguments why it isn't working, but God forbid you actually contact the zoo and ask a straight question. This is supposed to be a pro-zoo group and I am pretty confident that if the caller identified him/herself, they would get an honest answer if you asked about these species. I have just checked the web site and the telephone number is 01540 651 270; call and ask for the person in charge of the animal department and see what happens. Unless of course it's just too much fun continuing to guess at causes and the facts might just get in the way?

The park also has a Facebook page that they answer questions on.

 

[Shirokuma]

I think people just enjoy chatting and speculating, it's not really a bad thing although it would be nice to have some official input.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Scotland, like the rest of UK, is currently experiencing a very early winter freeze, but generally its wet,wet, wet and I don't think much can be done to alleviate that.

Its largely irrelevant what climates other rare species are adapted to, each species has its own particular tolerance level and in this case it seems these Bactrian Deer and Urial Sheep don't thrive in Scotland..

Not entirely true mind you.

Damp and wet conditions admittedly do not suit these taxa. However, IMO they would have done well had they remained in the hard-standing closed exhibit environments of Edinburgh Zoo. F.i. the Bactrian deer did well while on exhibit prior to transfer to HWP.

I do deplore that a lot of particularly rare individuals where lost this way. I would not go as far to say as "un-avoidable", but certainly not suited to.

 

[Pertinax]

Damp and wet conditions admittedly do not suit these taxa. However, IMO they would have done well had they remained in the hard-standing closed exhibit environments of Edinburgh Zoo. F.i. the Bactrian deer did well while on exhibit prior to transfer to HWP.

But that begs the Question as to whether moving them from Edinburgh to HWP was the actual cause, or was the cause already in process at Edinburgh i.e. would they have started dying off if they had stayed there also?

If climate was the reason, then both locations have much the same or (very similar) obviously. If it was caused by access to pasture or was parasitic, then staying at Edinburgh might have saved them, although I am not sure they weren't also in a grass paddock at Edinburgh- despite being an Urban zoo they have large open paddocks at the upper end of the Zoo which is on a hill, for Ungulates- the Thorold's deer for example are in one, not on hardstandings or hard surface.

 

[Pertinax]

This is supposed to be a pro-zoo group and I am pretty confident that if the caller identified him/herself, they would get an honest answer if you asked about these species. I have just checked the web site and the telephone number is 01540 651 270; call and ask for the person in charge of the animal department and see what happens. Unless of course it's just too much fun continuing to guess at causes and the facts might just get in the way?

This is largely a pro-zoo website. Most people on here speculating on the causes of death of these ungulates are well aware of the problems of keeping high altitude species like this in captive conditions. IMO ringing or contacting the zoo/park 'out of the blue' over such losses is likely to produce a guarded response or a reluctance to provide details- the unknown person inquiring might be from the press or an anti-zoo lobby who would then use the information against the park. So they'd have my sympathy if they didn't give out the information and I see little point in asking. However if I was visiting the park myself and saw a relevant keeper or manager then I would certainly ask as such enquiries are much easier when made directly face to face.

I don't think any less of HWP if they haven't been able to keep these species successfully as these are just the hard facts of keeping animals in captivity which zoo supporters and people who have experience of working in zoos accept as reality. My only reservation would be that they don't try the same species again though.

 

[Shoebill]

Most people on here speculating on the causes of death of these ungulates are well aware of the problems of keeping high altitude species like this in captive conditions. IMO ringing or contacting the zoo/park 'out of the blue' over such losses is likely to produce a guarded response

You talk absolute mince Pertinax. Absolute mince. You cannot speculate with idle anecdotes, something done everyday it seems, on this forum.

I propose that everyone looks into valid and relevant research before suggesting that lack of "hard standing" or anthelmintic regime is to blame. And why not contact those in the know, for you clearly are not.

 

[sooty mangabey]

You talk absolute mince Pertinax. Absolute mince.

Perhaps this is a little unfair. I think he was suggesting that, rightly in his opinion, any zoo would be reluctant to discuss the causes of an animal's death over the telephone, and that in the absence of such information speculation - informed, supportive - was not such a bad thing. It's when that speculation is negative, or starts from the assumption that the zoo is in the wrong, that the irritation kicks in.

I very much like the expression "absolute mince".

 

[Pertinax]

And why not contact those in the know, for you clearly are not.

Well, it sounds like you are so maybe you could enlighten us in that case. It would stop the speculation you don't approve of. As I said before, I fully support HWP in keeping these species and don't attribute any blame if any animals have died-I am just interested to know what the reasons were and if they were connected with the topics discussed.
As for contacting 'those in the know' (presumably the zoo?) direct to find out such information, I have done so many times in the past (not HWP) usually without much success so I've rather given up on that. Someone above said 'is it more fun to guess and would the facts get in the way? That is just daft- I get nothing out of guessing and would far rather just have the facts everytime, but they are often hard to ascertain, though in this case my interest was aroused mainly by the postings of others indicating these species have declined recently there.

 

[Pertinax]

I think he was suggesting that, rightly in his opinion, any zoo would be reluctant to discuss the causes of an animal's death over the telephone,.

I wouldn't blame any curator or manager being hesitant to give out such information to complete strangers who just 'phone in.'

Emailing can work sometimes but its easy for them to get overlooked, either genuinely or deliberately. So finding out such information is often difficult and historically its always been like that. In the past most zoos were very suspicious of such enquiries and didn't seem to understand anyone might possibly be interested in such details without having some ulterior motive. So its usually just better not to ask...

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Speculative some of the suggestions here may have been and for which I agree independent verification would be needed from the zoo concerned on what transpired on all individual mortalities. However, it remains that the dry altitudal and highland species like Bactrian deer and urial have sadly not done as well as we might all have hoped. To lose such valuable stock is both deplorable and highly significant.

For what it is worth: my personal experience of is with the collections maintaining Bactrian deer in Koeln and Tierpark Berlin (and to a lesser extent with Tallinn). For urial it be Tierpark alone. All these zoos maintain their stock in a closed intensively management traditional zoo environments. There is also some anecdotal evidence on Bactrian deer reintroductions from Russia too which might help.

I would also concur most of us here are all glad HWP has even considered trying to maintain these highly endangered species for their new collection plan and applaud them for it.

Lastly, - as Pertinax observed - it would be interesting to know what were the determining factors in most mortalities in said species. Perhaps, we will only come to know not by phoning the zoo and asking for ... well can you please tell us what such and such died from ... (it would seem to me a somewhat bizarre question at best). Best to build up a strong visitor-keeper relationship and try to get on top of things, ... I guess.

 

[hedigerfan]

The point that a call out of the blue about animal deaths may get at best a guarded response is valid. But, it would appear that the zoo community may be quite supportive of Zoo Chat, given Chester Zoo's special curatorial tours for example, and hopefully they see us as a positive presence on the internet. I am willing to offer-up a copy of an old Leipzig Zoo Guide (it has a tiger on the cover, is undated, written by the former director Seifert and it appears to be from about the 1970s, judging by the hairstyles) as a wager of sorts. If someone from this discussion thread calls the Park and gets a less than detailed answer, I will send them the guide. If they get a comprehensive answer, I keep the guide. I would suggest that it should be someone from the UK to keep the cost of the call down, as the animal manager/curator may want to call you back after reviewing the discussion thread to get a bit more background, and to take time zone changes into account. Identify yourself, explain about Zoo Chat and about this thread and see what happens. It may be best to agree amongst yourselves who is going to make the call as I would imagine that a zoo would not appreciate getting multiple calls on this subject.

Equally, I do not think that posting the question on FaceBook is the appropriate medium or way to go about this.

 

[kiang]

A couple of things also noted from ISIS, one of the female Japanese serow has left the collection and still the failure to breed from the UK's only group of forest reindeer.

 

[zoogiraffe]

The point that a call out of the blue about animal deaths may get at best a guarded response is valid. But, it would appear that the zoo community may be quite supportive of Zoo Chat, given Chester Zoo's special curatorial tours for example, and hopefully they see us as a positive presence on the internet. I am willing to offer-up a copy of an old Leipzig Zoo Guide (it has a tiger on the cover, is undated, written by the former director Seifert and it appears to be from about the 1970s, judging by the hairstyles) as a wager of sorts. If someone from this discussion thread calls the Park and gets a less than detailed answer, I will send them the guide. If they get a comprehensive answer, I keep the guide. I would suggest that it should be someone from the UK to keep the cost of the call down, as the animal manager/curator may want to call you back after reviewing the discussion thread to get a bit more background, and to take time zone changes into account. Identify yourself, explain about Zoo Chat and about this thread and see what happens. It may be best to agree amongst yourselves who is going to make the call as I would imagine that a zoo would not appreciate getting multiple calls on this subject.

Equally, I do not think that posting the question on FaceBook is the appropriate medium or way to go about this.

Chester Zoo is very much an exception in its relationship with zoochat,many zoo`s are very anti zoochat to the point that staff have been disciplined when it has been found out that they have posted to correct,something that has been said that is wrong about the animals under their care!!

 

[Pertinax]

Zoogiraffe tells it like it is. If I was going to contact the Highland Wildlife Park about this, and I'm not(I don't collect Zoo guides for a start) then I certainly would not mention any connection with Zoochat- IMO that would be guaranteed to put them on the defensive. Despite this being largely a Pro-zoo forum I'm sure most zoos don't welcome the invention of Internet discussion forums which involve them.

And if nobody finds out the reasons behind these losses or reduction in numbers, then realistically its not too big a deal- the animals are no longer there, end of story. I for one don't think any less of the Park as a result.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Chester Zoo is very much an exception in its relationship with zoochat,many zoo`s are very anti zoochat to the point that staff have been disciplined when it has been found out that they have posted to correct,something that has been said that is wrong about the animals under their care!!

Point taken.

I can see both sides of the coin. IMO Chester Zoo is very much a transparant concern and great they do engage the more serious side of ZooChat posters.

However, I can also quite rightly defend the other way round as a portion of our posters are more than an inch to concerned with deaths as something unusual or not to happen under any circumstances amongst other issues. Nature has this fickle and (un-)nasty habit of being a life and death scenario and so is the exhibition of animals in captivity. Some you win, some you lose. Lest we tried our best.

Rest assured that most serious conservation minded zoos do their utmost to look after their charges whether as small as a hissing cockroach or as large and tall as a giraffe.

IMO most if not all keepers and other zoo staff have an exemplary work ethic and commitment to what they are doing whether that be zoo keeping on the ground, a logistical function behind the scenes or being responsible for curatorial or conservation management of a collection.