Paignton Zoo Paignton Zoo

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johnstoni said:
What is actually stopping a european zoo importing some captive babirusa or gaur from Asia? Have the Bornean/ Visayan Warty Pigs been breeding in Europe for years or are these fairly recent imports?

Or is your point more that all zoos, globally, should give all their species over to global managment programs to stop some institutions holding onto and 'wasting' the genes of their valuable animals?
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My point is both :eek: ..... actually ... :D

F.i. the babirusa EEP is trying to import new captive-born babirusa from known wild-caught founders ex Indonesia. However, the red tape and paperwork is usually holding up a swift transaction (even within Europe itself). Only if zoos make partnerships with in-situ programmes and operate as a consortium does this bear fruit.

My second point is that we can not deny the fact that f.i. all captive douc langurs are part of worldwide "meta" population that needs all the genetic input available in captivity for the survival of the species both in captivity and in the wild. The world zoo organisation WAZA is committed to having all regional zoo organisations (be they EEP, ALPZA in South America or the Thailand Zoo Organisation) to work to work towards the goal of cooperative meta population management of endangered taxa and support of in situ conservation through technical input, financial support and making available zoological and management expertise for in situ research programmes.
 
jelle said:
My second point is that we can not deny the fact that f.i. all captive douc langurs are part of worldwide "meta" population that needs all the genetic input available in captivity for the survival of the species both in captivity and in the wild. The world zoo organisation WAZA is committed to having all regional zoo organisations (be they EEP, ALPZA in South America or the Thailand Zoo Organisation) to work to work towards the goal of cooperative meta population management of endangered taxa and support of in situ conservation through technical input, financial support and making available zoological and management expertise for in situ research programmes.
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I agree as far as the captive remaining populations away from their lands should be managed cooperatively, only this kind of happens as much as is possible already, with the same obstacles (cost, law, individual institutions dragging their heels) that would persist even with a global management system. As for captive stock in the country they are native to.....it's a tricky one. Why should we fix deals to get more babirusa, etc, into temperate zoos? If the captive population is low, why not repatriate them all to the countries their ancestors were essentially stolen from, and allow them to augment the captive population and conservation efforts in their homeland? Wouldn't that free up TAG time and institution space for genetically viable species needing more room for the population to grow? Why shouldn't we trust those nations to conserve these species themselves?
I know we'd like to see more unusual species etc etc but actually, if we were really serious about more than topping up the zoo population when it gets low, we would be as ready to consider giving up a species and sending the remaining animals to their countries of origin. Certainly most western european countries are a bad example of species conservation. In the UK it has taken years to even get an agreement to experimentally release....beavers!
On yet another tangential thought, I wouldn't be surprised if, as AI techniques improve and the success rate goes up, there is greater cooperation internationally to donate frozen semen to maintain captive stocks. I know the Henry Doorly zoo has been looking at this with Gaur, it could eventually turn out to be the most ethical and cost effective way of saving dwindling captive stocks.
 
johnstoni said:
So, what, really are the barriers to bringing in new blood to dwindling (european) captive populations?
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Red tape, unfortunately.

I am very unhappy with situation where even animals which are commonly poached in Africa or SE Asia and sold as pets or meat, are next to impossible to import. Because, everything is protected - on paper only.

johnstoni said:
As for captive stock in the country they are native to.....it's a tricky one. Why should we fix deals to get more babirusa, etc, into temperate zoos? If the captive population is low, why not repatriate them all to the countries
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Most tropical zoos and reserves are very badly managed, which you might see e.g. on threads about SE Asian zoos in this forum.

Often even if foreigners want to finance them, this breaks down due to corruption, political disorder or xenophoby. It should be judged case-by-case.

E.g. few years ago all sumatran rhinos in breeding centre in Indonesia died. Inspection found dirt and rats all over the place. And this was one of better, foreign-financed, publicized plans.

I would never say that tropical animals in their home country are automatically better than in zoo in Europe or America. Not that all Western zoos are reserves are good. But in tropics it is magnified by a factor.
 
I wouldn't really say that the ex-situ breeding program for Sumatran rhinoceros in the western world was any better. Only it's kind of up to the countries to which these animals are native. If they manage their own conservation projects badly, so be it. Like I said, being British, who am I to wade in and criticise another country in it's decline of various fauna? If we had a sizeable population of Sumatran rhino in zoos globally, fine, lets cooperate to maintain genetic diversity and try to conserve this population, but failing that, it is down to those governments to decide if they have enough desire to save the species or willingness to take funding and support from western institutions.
It isn't up to europe or the US to save endangered species in the countries we have impoverished and dominated for so long. If they accept our offers of help, great, but we don't have an automatic right to demand that they protect these species above other budgetary responsibilities.
 
Also, historically, Indonesia is the mess that it is because british and American governments, with the CIA, armed Suharto to the teeth and helped install him, thus beginning a brutal era in Indonesia's history, which also as you know wiped out two thirds of the population of east timor. At the start of his reign, a shameful assortment of western CEO's and people from the world bank, IMF etc met with Suharto to discuss the fire-sale of the countries' natural resources which has continued ever since. We in the west haven't really helped the people of Indonesia to be in a position to conserve their wildlife in the last few decades. I fully see your point, it is tragic and awful when such a charismatic rare mammal experiences such losses in a conservation programme, the current trend of zoos funding related in situ projects is vital and needs to continue, but not to morph into some kind of neo-colonial arm into the wildlife resources of another country. As a British citizen, it really isn't for me to scold a country like Indonesia for not bad stewardship of its endangered species. My lifesytle still impacts negatively on the same animals I wish to see conserved. Do you check the ingredients on every food item you buy for palm oil? Do you only by certified wood products? (hardware stores in particular, broom handles, wooden blinds, so often made with illegally-harvested ramin).
 
Jurek7 said:
Most tropical zoos and reserves are very badly managed, which you might see e.g. on threads about SE Asian zoos in this forum.

E.g. few years ago all sumatran rhinos in breeding centre in Indonesia died. Inspection found dirt and rats all over the place. And this was one of better, foreign-financed, publicized plans.
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Jurek,

Bullet point 1)
It is our collective duty - the international zoo community - to support what we call sub-standard zoos to improve animal and zoo management in situ. SE Asian zoos have an even more important role being right in the middle of the nex biodiversity crisis - bear in mind we Europeans had ours already around the 1500's-1800's - and these zoos have an important educational and conservation rol to play. If we only let them ... and provide them with technical knowhow and perhaps financial support to carry out those duties more effectively. That is the whole strategem with the WAZA Global Species Management Programmes!!!!! ;)

It is so easy to criticise, less so to engage and improve matters in situ ........

Bullet point 2)
The breeding center was actually in MALAYSIA and was top dollar regarding research and management ..... :mad:
 
jelle said:
It is our collective duty...
If we only let them ...
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I agree that all animals in the world should be saved, and that Western countries should support zoos in less developed parts of the world.

But maybe I am more cynical, but not always these countries and zoos are sympathetic and only have no funds and know-how. You also have mismanagement, disinterest, and all.

jelle said:
The breeding center was actually in MALAYSIA and was top dollar regarding research and management ..... :mad:
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Yes, sorry for all supporters of Indonesian zoos. But rats still entered it. One of links I dug out:

The Star, Malaysia : Divided over Sumatran Rhino breeding plan
 
Jurek7 said:
Yes, sorry for all supporters of Indonesian zoos. But rats still entered it. One of links I dug out:

The Star, Malaysia : Divided over Sumatran Rhino breeding plan
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Re: Indonesian zoos my comments are as before. Most Malaysian zoos are of a considerably higher standard, I admit. But in Indonesia PKBSI trying to change things gradually.

But Jurek please please please .... get your localities straight, my friend! :rolleyes:

The rhino breeding programme at the Sungai Dusun Center is in mainland Republic of Malaysia. We have the Straits separating Asian mainland Malaysia from the Indonesian islands of Sumatra and Java AND only a tiny portion of the Republic of Malaysia has any intertwinning with the Republic of Indonesia .... that is the Sarawak and Sabah provinces on northern Kalimantan - Borneo for non-Malay ... laypeople) ;)
 
Orangutans: Great excitement - Demo and Mali were in the show den today. They definitely could not be accused of being sluggish. They were exploring every nook and cranny and looked slim and lithe. Brilliant!
Mandrills: Missy, the dominant female, is pregnant. Due to give birth next month.
 
Gigit said:
Orangutans: Great excitement - Demo and Mali were in the show den today. They definitely could not be accused of being sluggish. They were exploring every nook and cranny and looked slim and lithe. Brilliant!
Mandrills: Missy, the dominant female, is pregnant. Due to give birth next month.
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Any indication that they will start breeding soon? Where is Demo from originally (also date of birth and location be welcome)?
 
Demo, born 6 June 1998, and Mali, born 29 September 1995, both arrived from Munster in November 2007. I believe they had actually bred in Munster though the baby was stillborn. They are in quarantine until May when they plan to introduce Demo to Chinta.
 
Just to avoid a misunderstanding, Demo has not been born in Muster. I believe he is from Alborg in Denmark. But Mali has been born in Munster. Mali had a stillborn baby in 2006/2007 and paternity tests showed it was from Demo. So the decision to send Mali and Demo together to Paignton was made. A couple of years ago Demo came to Munster with a second young orang utan male from Aalborg, so it was unclear who was the sire of the two babys born in 2006/2007. By the way, the other baby which is alive (mother Tammi) is from the other male, so it was a good solution to keep each breeding female with the male who had already sired a baby with her.
 
Gigit said:
Orangutans: Great excitement - Demo and Mali were in the show den today. They definitely could not be accused of being sluggish. They were exploring every nook and cranny and looked slim and lithe. Brilliant!
Mandrills: Missy, the dominant female, is pregnant. Due to give birth next month.
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That's good- maybe they'll use the trees properly outdoors too when the time comes.

Have they still got the troublesome female Mandrill living on her own?

and don't tell me- Damisi is still there?:(
 
Gigit said:
Demo, born 6 June 1998, and Mali, born 29 September 1995, both arrived from Munster in November 2007. I believe they had actually bred in Munster though the baby was stillborn. They are in quarantine until May when they plan to introduce Demo to Chinta.
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Keep us posted on progress with the new introducees and the eventual meet and greet with Chinta. It seems fair to expect that Demo and Mali will have a baby orang before long (and that this time round omens are more favourable to him/her growing up in public)!
 
Any news on the Red River Hog front? Have they got a new mate for the their single pig yet?

Any interesting developments at Monkey Heights?
 
The female Red River Hog is still alone. I haven't noticed anything new in Monkey Heights though there seem to be fewer male Abyssinian Colobus than before. I'll have to try and catch a keeper's talk. I think they've restarted them now that the zoo's getting busier.
 
From Paignton's website:


Zoo collars peccaries 14/04/2008



Two collared peccaries at Paignton Zoo chased each other into a neighbouring enclosure at around 12:50pm on Monday 14th April.

The cause appears to be a sudden flaring of aggression between two females in the group. Keepers launched an immediate response and the two were darted safely within minutes. Senior staff organised a safety cordon between visitors and the animals.

The pair will now be separated while staff decide what to do with them. It is likely that one or both will be moved on to another animal collection.

“Our main concern was of course for the safety and welfare of both the animals and our visitors. Visitors were moved back to give staff room to work and to reduce stress on the animals. We practice these procedures so keepers know what to do.†There were about 2,500 visitors in the 80 acre grounds of the Zoo at the time.

Collared peccaries are small South American pigs. They are an endangered species. The Zoo has 10 peccaries.
 
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