Lolita the orca is ill.

[jenjen]

This news is a couple of days old now, but she is ill with a tooth infection (bad news for an orca as tooth infections can kill them, and in captivity they have many tooth related problems). The killer whale shows have been canceled for a week now.

proabaly doesn't help that she's in a dirty tank.

here is a facebook site that updates often.

The Orca Project | Facebook

 

[zoomaniac]

For those who are interested, where Lolita is exhibited: In the Miami Seaquarium.

 

[jenjen]

Zoomanic - thanks, I realised after I'd turned the laptop off that I'd forgotten to write that, I was going to edit it today.

cheers.

No new health updates though.

 

[John Dineley]

This news is a couple of days old now, but she is ill with a tooth infection (bad news for an orca as tooth infections can kill them, and in captivity they have many tooth related problems). The killer whale shows have been canceled for a week now.

proabaly doesn't help that she's in a dirty tank.

here is a facebook site that updates often.

The Orca Project | Facebook

Perhaps you would like to qualify the comment 'dirty tank'?

Also one should add that The Orca Project is an anti-zoo pressure group so why are you posting on this group??

 

[jenjen]

Perhaps you would like to qualify the comment 'dirty tank'?

Also one should add that The Orca Project is an anti-zoo pressure group so why are you posting on this group??

By dirty tank I mean, covered in algea and mould, rusty pipes, broken and cracked walls, leaking pipes, peeling paint, electricity cables next to leaking pipes, dirty, stained windows you cant see in, no medical qurantine area, the stadium seats held up by scafolding, no shelter from the elements and a poor filtration and anti water contaimnation system.......... there is no doubt she is the worst kept orca in captivity in the world. Even the most ardent supporter of orca captivity would not argue with how poor her tank is. Even if she cant be moved, they make no effort to keep her tank clean

I meant the comment as in - it will be hard to keep an infected area clean and sterile in a dirty tank, thats all.

I posted that particular site because it has the most up to date news (updated every couple of hours), its not my page if thats what your wondering. It wasn't my intention to post an anti cap site on porpose.

look, since you asked, I've talked about this on here before, that I love zoo's and go to my local (marwell) and others regularly (I have some marwell photos to post soon), but I dont believe that every species of animal belongs in captivity, and I dont appologise for that (they include, orca, dolphin, elephants, polar bears and whale sharks, all for various welfare reasons, but I dont jump on every thread about them) but I did not plan --and still dont want - for this thread to turn in to a debate of pro v con, I was just letting you know she is sick. As I said its the most frequently updated site I found, if you want to post a pro cap site with updates about her go ahead, you'll get no debate or argument from me.

Just because I dont think that every animal belongs in captivity does not mean I dont like zoos (indeed it would be my dream job to work in one) or I dont have the right to be here. I'm not starting trouble or anything, if I was I could understand you being upset.

 

[Baldur]

All that can be 'trusted' on such sites are the statistics and 'some' of the facts related to the statistics. They usually maintain fairly reliable data on for instance when a whale arrived, when it died (if applicable), what names it had before, where it was caught and kept, etc. But not for a moment would I believe such things from the 'news' section of the website or any other section for that matter.

 

[Sun Wukong]

Keeping an orca really "sterile" (in the sense of abacterial) is rather impossible-and might be detrimental to the health of the animal, too.

Personal "belief" should be limited to religious faith, and not used to evaluate the possible husbandry of certain species (even and especially when it comes to the "golden calves" among zoo species most animal right activists like to focus on).

BTW: orcas are DOLPHINS...
Suborder: Odontoceti
Family: Delphinidae
Genus: Orcinus

 

[John Dineley]

but I dont believe that every species of animal belongs in captivity, and I dont appologise for that (they include, orca, dolphin, elephants, polar bears and whale sharks, all for various welfare reasons, but I dont jump on every thread about them) .

Well I have made my position very clear that any opinions should be based on the actual science of animal welfare rather than emotion and/or propaganda from various animal-rights pressure groups.

I certainly have no problem with bottlenose dolphins in captivity in appropriate accommodation they do very well the majority in the US and mainland Europe captive bred. Likewise with the other species you list but again this is down to the suitably of the accommodation and care provided.

Certainly there are serious issues regarding Lolita. I haven't actually been and seen the pool she is in but neither I suspect have you. The video I have seen of her health care seems to demonstrate that the staff there take her welfare quite seriously.

YouTube - Miami Seaquarium Husbandry Behaviors for Orcas and Dolphins

This animal has been at the Seaquairium for 40 years (she was caught in 1970 age approx 6 years). Reading some of the information from the various anti-captive groups they appear to still wish to remove her and try and release her back to the wild. One would have thought after the tragic farce involving Keiko they would have learned their lesson.

Keiko the killer whale

But these people always seem to put ideology above actual animal welfare. Moving Loita somewhere else with other whales could be an option but there have been serious doubts as to whether she would survive such a transfer and also if she could adapt to being with other whales, she has been on her own for 30+ since the death of the male Hugo.

The Miami Seaquarium is a very old facility and certainly appears to require considerable ongoing investment but this could be said of any number of zoos and aquariums. I think it is very doubtful that they would consider keeping orcas in the future when Loita dies which is possibly why they never commited the investment in a new orca pool. Although such a pool could be use for dolphins at a later date. I am thinking about marine parks such as Marineland in France who now use their old orca pool for dolphins.

For the record at the at Seaquarium only one of 24 bottlenose dolphins were wild caught (in 1971) and the rest where born in captivity. The three white-sided dolphins were wild caught (1988, 1988, 1993) but they have had a successful birth in May 2009.

So as a facility they can't be as direr as some paint but that also doesn’t mean that the conditions for Loita represent any currently considered suitable environment for a captive orca either and shouldn’t be used as a basis for decimating against all aquaria that hold cetaceans which appears to be the case.

 

[jenjen]

Well I have made my position very clear that any opinions should be based on the actual science of animal welfare rather than emotion and/or propaganda from various animal-rights pressure groups.

I certainly have no problem with bottlenose dolphins in captivity in appropriate accommodation they do very well the majority in the US and mainland Europe captive bred. Likewise with the other species you list but again this is down to the suitably of the accommodation and care provided.

Certainly there are serious issues regarding Lolita. I haven't actually been and seen the pool she is in but neither I suspect have you. The video I have seen of her health care seems to demonstrate that the staff there take her welfare quite seriously.

YouTube - Miami Seaquarium Husbandry Behaviors for Orcas and Dolphins

This animal has been at the Seaquairium for 40 years (she was caught in 1970 age approx 6 years). Reading some of the information from the various anti-captive groups they appear to still wish to remove her and try and release her back to the wild. One would have thought after the tragic farce involving Keiko they would have learned their lesson.

Keiko the killer whale

But these people always seem to put ideology above actual animal welfare. Moving Loita somewhere else with other whales could be an option but there have been serious doubts as to whether she would survive such a transfer and also if she could adapt to being with other whales, she has been on her own for 30+ since the death of the male Hugo.

The Miami Seaquarium is a very old facility and certainly appears to require considerable ongoing investment but this could be said of any number of zoos and aquariums. I think it is very doubtful that they would consider keeping orcas in the future when Loita dies which is possibly why they never commited the investment in a new orca pool. Although such a pool could be use for dolphins at a later date. I am thinking about marine parks such as Marineland in France who now use their old orca pool for dolphins.

For the record at the at Seaquarium only one of 24 bottlenose dolphins were wild caught (in 1971) and the rest where born in captivity. The three white-sided dolphins were wild caught (1988, 1988, 1993) but they have had a successful birth in May 2009.

So as a facility they can't be as direr as some paint but that also doesn’t mean that the conditions for Loita represent any currently considered suitable environment for a captive orca either and shouldn’t be used as a basis for decimating against all aquaria that hold cetaceans which appears to be the case.

Well like I said, I have talked about this on here before and dont really want to go into it all again so I will just answer your questions.
I also dont get all my info just from this one, or all anti cap sites you know, I do check out many pro cap sites too.

Dolphin do seem to do better than orca in captivity (and to sun - yes I know orca are dolphin) but I still think they suffer for a dozen lengthy various reasons I'm not getting in to here, but at the barest minimum 'swim with' programs should be banned.

I dont doubt the trainers love and do their best for her, but they do do some questionable things, like feeding her fish while they are swimming in the pool and giving her wetsuits to play with (we do know orca are capable of killing trainers, so is it a good idea for her to assoiciate 'play' with a wetsuit the trainers wear or 'dinner' at the same time trainers are in the water) she does have a reputaion for being aggressive sometimes.

I have already seen the links you posted, but I have to say I do think other orca - but not all of them (IMO kshamenk is probably the best candidate for release at the moment) - could be released or retired to sea pens and Keiko's release was not a failure (he died of pneumonia, a disease very common in orca and one of the most common killers even in captivity, he was also the second oldest male ever in captivity,he thrived in his sea pen and when he was released he was filmed hunting, feeding and swimming with other orca pods. He only returened to ports and was fed by people once he got sick and did not loose any weight during his healthly time)

No orca has ever died during a transport so I doubt that will be a problem.

It does not just need "a lick of paint" as you put it, the whole park has been closed down numerous times for many health and safety violations.

They would not be allowed to get another orca once she dies as the tank is so small its currently illigal but she is allowed to stay due to a granfathered clause. They wont use it for dolphins as they built the 'top deck' dolphin area only a short while ago, if anything it should replace the outdated mannatee tank, and they would never get planning permission for a new killer whale sized tank. I dont think MSQ would survive her death anyway, she is their biggest star, without her they will almost certainly go bankrupt.

I also dont just 'have a thing' about cetaceans in captivity just because of MSQ, I dont like any of them, and I have researched all of them. There are many things that Seaworld do that are dodgy and questionable and downright reprehensible, as well as the rest around the world.





Anyway...........Apparently Lolita performed a show this afternoon (the first in a week, and the longest she has gone without performing) Though its still not clear why MSQ had such a sevear media blackout for the whole thing.

 

[Gryphon]

Well I have made my position very clear that any opinions should be based on the actual science of animal welfare rather than emotion and/or propaganda from various animal-rights pressure groups.

Did you actually have a look at the Orca Project site? Two people involved in stats of captive orcas are ex-orca trainers, one now a doctor, the other a uni researcher.

It's amusing how zoo folks are quick to label anyone who paints a different picture of captivity as fanatics or animal rights fundamentalists...hmmm...

As someone who works with marine mammals in captivity and studies marine mammals in the wild, I agree that a species like the orca does little good in captivity. There are no recorded human deaths from the so called killer whale in its natural environment, yet too many sad stories from captivity. Lessons learned, humble pie eaten, better species exhibited in better conditions so we can all benefit.

 

[lindsaykennaway]

It is so cruel to keep these huge mammals captive Blog: Captivity Kills | SaveJapanDolphins.org

 

[lindsaykennaway]

Captivity Kills

Blog: Captivity Kills | SaveJapanDolphins.org

Anyone who goes to visit live dolphin and whale shows are encouraging cruelty and harm to these innocent creatures. They are brutally captured and seperated from their families and kept in tanks so small. The only reason this industry is still alive is because of the money involved. We as the people have to be more aware and prevent the demand for captivity of dolphins and all sea mammals. Watch "the cove" a documentary that will make you cry for days...

 

[zoomaniac]

@lindsaykennaway: And what about eland antilopes, tanagers or even cockroaches? Where are the animal rights activist who are fighting for them? I can't find anyone - maybe because they are all "second class animals"?

But lets go back to the origin of this thread: Lolita, an INDIVIDUAL orca, and her illness and move the general discussion about keeping marine mammals in captivity in another thread.

 

[lindsaykennaway]

@ zoomaniac, your missing the point, the fact is that captivity is cruel for all animals, and it is us the people who are giving the demand for this to take place.
Dont you see? Lolita's illness is nothing that can be cured while she is in captivity. It is the being in captivity that is making her ill. The Miami Seaquarium knows this but they just tell the people who want to see her show that she has a toothache as a cover up. Orca's like Lolita die in captivity all the time because it doesn't matter how much we think we know about a species, you cannot take a wild animal out of its natural habitat and expect it thrive. Lolita is dying because she just lacks the fundamental need of a mammal, ie. to be free! So you see it is very much to do with keeping marine mammals in captivity.

 

[zoomaniac]

@lindsaykennaway: This is not an answer to my question. Also you should know, that "freedom" has a. not the same meaning for animals as it has to humans because b. none of the animals in the wild are completly "free" (occupied territories, natural barriers like water a.s.o).

And: "captivity is cruel for ALL animals". Interesting. So you are not keeping a dog, a cat or any other animal in your house? And none of your relatives/friends does? And your efforts against that are the same as against keeping marine mammals in captivity?

 

[John Dineley]

Did you actually have a look at the Orca Project site? Two people involved in stats of captive orcas are ex-orca trainers, one now a doctor, the other a uni researcher.

Yes I did read the report in full; I am hardly going to comment on something I haven’t read.

The two authors of the report, John Jett and Jeffrey Ventre, did work for Sea World.

According to the press Jett was “a trainer at Sea World of Florida for several years in the mid 1990′s” and Venture “a trainer for 4 years”, unfortunately no date given that I could find.

They both have been cited by the press as “marine mammal scientists”.

However, Jett is a visiting research professor focusing on waterway management issues at Stetson University and Ventre is a medical physician specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation. As far as I am aware neither have published any original research into marine mammals either in the wild or in captivity in any recognised peer-review journal.

They are, of course, entitled to promote an opinion on this matter as anyone is but this brings me to my prime concern regarding this issue which I will detail below.

It's amusing how zoo folks are quick to label anyone who paints a different picture of captivity as fanatics or animal rights fundamentalists...hmmm...

Not exactly what I said, is it? You missed out my point of basing animal welfare on science and this is my real problems with their report.

If these two individuals really wanted to make a bona fide position of the welfare of orca in captivity then they should have produced a considered research paper properly referenced and then published in a recognised scientific journal that is subject to peer review. They didn’t do this and for what reason? Probably because a number of their statements they make are not been supported by the available published evidence or there is no current evidence to support their position.

As an example, the state:

“In the medical community it is also accepted that UV radiation can act as an immunosuppressant and can cause retinal damage, among other physiological risks. Unfortunately, little is known of the long-term effects on captive orcas exposed to the sun to such an unnatural extent.”​

What wrong with this statement? First they offer no references to any research that supports the position that UV can act as a immunosuppressant and second they admit ‘little is known’ of the long-term effects of UV on orcas.

This is lazy at best and actually meaningless and ironically the research is out there as regards UV-B. These statements might be fine in the area of tabloid journalism (perhaps the very market they are aiming for) but it certainly will not impress any scientist of any merit.

But that is the problem - this it is tabloid science. They could have many valid points but choose to promote it through media propaganda rather than science review.

As someone who works with marine mammals in captivity and studies marine mammals in the wild, I agree that a species like the orca does little good in captivity.

Well as like many on here you hide behind a pseudo name and you have only just joined Zoo Chat and this is your first posting so I really can’t qualify your statement regarding your qualifications but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[John Dineley]

…. Dolphin do seem to do better than orca in captivity (and to sun - yes I know orca are dolphin) but I still think they suffer for a dozen lengthy various reasons I'm not getting in to here, but at the barest minimum 'swim with' programs should be banned.

Sorry that’s not really good enough. It’s fine to dislike something on a aesthetic basis but not fine to demand all dolphin keeping should be banned for ‘lengthy reasons I’m not getting into here”.

…. Keiko's release was not a failure (he died of pneumonia, a disease very common in orca and one of the most common killers even in captivity, he was also the second oldest male ever in captivity,he thrived in his sea pen and when he was released he was filmed hunting, feeding and swimming with other orca pods. He only returened to ports and was fed by people once he got sick and did not loose any weight during his healthly time)

Certainly most (and I not talking about zoo people) think it was a very expensive failure.

Of course he thrived in his sea-pen he was after in a 100% captive care situation. He was ‘released’ because it was alleged the money ran out of the project and they were making little progress in getting him to adapt to the wild.

He fed very little when ‘released’ and the reason he became ill and sort out the company of people was that he was probably hungry and also he wanted companionship. He did not associate with other orcas and any interaction that occurred where not reciprocated by the wild orcas and in one case clear aggressive behaviour was directed at Keiko by a wild female; he respond by swimming back at speed to the tracking boat.

He died of suspected pneumonia but no post-morten was undertaken which I find very strange after all the time and effort undertaken on the project you would have thought this would have taken place. The old adage of 'doctors burying their mistakes' come to mind

NB: pneumonia is a common reported cause of death in many mammals including humans; it’s the reason for death not the actual cause of death.

You clearly did not read the report, did you?

Quote:

“…Keiko’s release to the wild was not successful, since though physically unrestricted and free to leave, he kept returning to his caretakers for food and company...The release of Keiko demonstrated that release of long-term captive animals is especially challenging and while we as humans might find it appealing to free a long-term captive animal, the survival and well being of the animal may be severely impacted in doing so.”​

Full report HERE.
​

It does not just need "a lick of paint" as you put it, the whole park has been closed down numerous times for many health and safety violations. They would not be allowed to get another orca once she dies as the tank is so small its currently illigal but she is allowed to stay due to a granfathered clause. They wont use it for dolphins as they built the 'top deck' dolphin area only a short while ago, if anything it should replace the outdated mannatee tank, and they would never get planning permission for a new killer whale sized tank. I dont think MSQ would survive her death anyway, she is their biggest star, without her they will almost certainly go bankrupt.

I think I already stated that Miami Seaquarium needs more capital investment and I doubt if they would go bankrupt if they didn’t have the whale. One reason the Seaquarium remains popular is that their actually isn’t any major aquariums displaying dolphins and other marine animals in it’s immediate area.

I also dont just 'have a thing' about cetaceans in captivity just because of MSQ, I dont like any of them, and I have researched all of them. There are many things that Seaworld do that are dodgy and questionable and downright reprehensible, as well as the rest around the world.

You say you have researched it - I maintain that you clearly haven’t. A question: have you actually visited a zoo or aquarium that has dolphins? If so, which ones and why, on that experience, do you feel it qualifies you to condemn all aquaria around the world the exhibit cetaceans.

BTW: The Top Deck dolphin area was built in 1955 (56 years ago) not recently and specifically to display dolphins. I think you are referring to the recent renovation work. Obviously your research fell a bit short on that one

 

[John Dineley]

Anyone who goes to visit live dolphin and whale shows are encouraging cruelty and harm to these innocent creatures. They are brutally captured and seperated from their families and kept in tanks so small. The only reason this industry is still alive is because of the money involved. We as the people have to be more aware and prevent the demand for captivity of dolphins and all sea mammals. Watch "the cove" a documentary that will make you cry for days...

The majority of cetaceans in captivity in the USA and Mainland Europe are captive bred and never originated from the Japanese drive fishery. The bottom line is that the drive fishery will continue to slaughter dolphin regards if a hand full of these animals go to aquariums.

There is already a thread on The Cove and the issue of the drive fishery elsewhere on Zoo Chat and it would be better to address your comments there.

http://www.zoochat.com/2/cove-147128/

Just an observation but this is the second individual to post on this thread that is newly joined. I can’t help but wonder, particularly by this most recent post if these people actually support zoo and animal collections or are they just spamming and trolling? I only observe this as this seem to be happening on a couple of zoo and aquarium site I subscribe to. Just I thought

 

[lindsaykennaway]

@zoomaniac, what question did you ask? where are the activists for the cockroaches?
Of course freedom is different for both humans and animals. But you cannot call a 'natural barrier' like water a form of captivation! and yes if an animal is in the wild it is completely free, in this sense that I am talking about even if there is human habitats nearby. Here where I live outside my window there are monkeys sitting in the trees free to go where they like, sit on the rood, eat food from the trees and thereby die and live of natural causes. That is what I mean by free. If someone were to capture these monkeys sitting outside my window and take them to a zoo, do you think they would survive? some would, some wouldn't. They would die because they are not used to the conditions suddenly imposed on their immune systems and especially the emotional stress that would cause a lot of harm to them. Do you know that most captured animals die along the way before they even arrive at the zoo they are being captured for! That is why animals that are captured fetch such a high price at the zoos and aquariums.
Of course I was not referring to domesticated animals, only animals that have been captured in from the wild and brought into captivity for example the dolphins and orcas who are taken from their families in brutal conditions and put in a tank that is one zillionth of the size of the ocean they are used to. An orca has a very good memory and they miss their families and children they are taken from until the day they die. on the contrary, a dog is born into a house, raised with humans and are completely domesticated, they know nothing else apart from that life. but even a domesticated dog will not enjoy being kept in a cage.

 

[lindsaykennaway]

@ John - Are you saying that everyone on this site has to support zoo and animal collections?
Do you think the Aquariums and zoos would be transparent and tell everyone that they got their dolphins from the Japanese drive fishery? I don't think so. Of course people would much rather hear that they are born in captivity. The effort to stop the Japanese slaughter is already working, huge progress has been made. However they will only really succeed once the world understands the cruelty of captive dolphins and boycotts zoos and aquariums.
The reason why this thread caught my attention because yet again, a captive orca is ill and the obvious reason is its environment. It makes me angry to see this as Lolita should be released along with all the other captured marine mammals. And for what reason is she not released? for human entertainment. the dolphins biggest misconception is their smile, which makes them look happy all the time, when in fact they suffer suffer suffer.
why and how can you support such cruelty? Don't you see? Lolita is miserable, she is suffering heartache that has gone on for too long, and she is too depressed to perform anymore. If you really want to see orca and dolphin go into the sea and the oceans, do a dive course, go snorkelling...you dont have to pay someone to see one in a tank.