"a zoo in my luggage" smuggling attempt

Sun Wukong said:
And who should that be?
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Professors in the field? High ranking individuals of certain groups (WAZA, AZA, EAZA, IUCN etc) - people that know their stuff and would be in my opinion qualified enough to choose these people.

Personally I think zoos that have very experienced reptile keepers should get the said reptiles, that way it is easily monitored and who gets them would be up to WAZA - who would simply decide by who they think would be the best zoo to have the species.

As for private breeders that is a different matter, since obviously it is much more difficult to monitor and choose who would be best suited. My only idea is that some sort of 'exam' in herpetology (and a difficult one at that) would have to be sat before they are issued with permissions to obtain 'new-to-captivity' species. But that isn't the best idea, and I'm sure that if anything came into practice somebody would know how best to chose - it's just that I don't :D
 
@Javan Rhino: Yet who should be knowledgable enough to design & perform such a test-and evaluate (and control!) it correctly? And who can guarantee 100% that all the herp offspring produced by the very experienced reptile keepers get only to reasonable husbandries? Who watches the watchmen?
In Europe, various both federal (like ederal veterinarians etc.) and serious private organisations exist that should help to stop the unresponsible trading and incorrect private husbandry of (endangered) exotic species. However, they don't have enough ressources to control and not enough power of enforcement to handle the situation as needed. This doesn't surprise, as the trade with exotics is a profitable one, with an ever growing cast of international "experts" who know how to evade persecution.

Still, this doesn't answer my question regarding the shortcomings of an all-too limited founding base proposed here.
 
Sun Wukong said:
@Javan Rhino: Yet who should be knowledgable enough to design & perform such a test-and evaluate (and control!) it correctly? And who can guarantee 100% that all the herp offspring produced by the very experienced reptile keepers get only to reasonable husbandries? Who watches the watchmen?
In Europe, various both federal (like ederal veterinarians etc.) and serious private organisations exist that should help to stop the unresponsible trading and incorrect private husbandry of (endangered) exotic species. However, they don't have enough ressources to control and not enough power of enforcement to handle the situation as needed. This doesn't surprise, as the trade with exotics is a profitable one, with an ever growing cast of international "experts" who know how to evade persecution.

Still, this doesn't answer my question regarding the shortcomings of an all-too limited founding base proposed here.
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I see your point that there would likely be corruption in this. As for your question, AG has explained it to me that it wouldn't be a founding base, and that it would be a small handful of non-breeders just so the 'experts' (let's not argue on how they would be chosen, let's just pretend somebody else is arguing on who they should be because it isn't relevant here. Let's just say that there are chosen experts :p) can find out how to keep them alive - it is basically baby-steps, and that is the first.

You could take 100 (random simple number) from the wild to form a basis population to be bred from, and then they all die because people don't know how to keep them alive. Or, you take 10 from the wild and find ways of keeping those alive, and when you've nailed that you can then go out and find a breeding basis population. Effectively, if you can't find a way of keeping them alive then you are losing 10% of what you would be if you rushed into setting up a breeding population.

I've lost myself in all of this, but I hope that explains it :p
 
Sun Wukong said:
And who should that be?

Being incomprehensible is one thing; not answering the questions AgileGibbon's post created is another.
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I already answered you who it should be. Javan rhino has already told you who that person(s) should be. Read back over the posts the answers are there. Honestly they are ;)


Just in case you dont get it, the answer is to your question : And who should that be?

The answer : those who are educated, experienced and qualified to recruit a suitable person for the task in hand.

you can keep onsaying ' What if ' all day about any worldly subject, but the question has been clearly answered to a satisfactory standard.

P.
 
Pootle said:
Well obviously if it was to be 2 breeders as you state then they would obviously be chosen by an educated panel or similar. It is the same if I left my job, my company would choose someone suitabley qualified to replace me. Quite simple and straight forward.

I think agilegibbon was clear enough in the postings myself.

Back to the best practised ways of stopping the illegal trade of species is in the long term education globally - Remember 100 years ago the British thought it generally good fun to go shooting Lions and bring back a rug. Through education over time newer generations now are disgusted by this behaviour.
The short term cure is to increase the punishment for those caught, although this will not stop the trade it will no doubt put some people off from doing it.
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You have no idea and you are missing the point.
 
Without being arrogant I can tell you I could answer any question on birdhusbandry you could make up (especially as the test must be general enough to cover a wide range of species. Or do you want to make a seperate test for each new species (and who will make a test for a species that is new in captivity)), but that doesn't mean that I'm capable of holding every bird species that exists. Also keep in mind that there is quite difference between being an expert on a certain species and being an expert in the husbandry of the same species.
A husbandry licence could be a good thing and actually already exists in France for some species, where next to a test you have an obligatory stage at an established keeper of the species you want to keep. But to be fair the concrete implementation of such a system in Europe would be very difficult (too many different actors, money, who will be the experts (and this last one will be tricky).
 
DDcorvus said:
Without being arrogant I can tell you I could answer any question on birdhusbandry you could make up (especially as the test must be general enough to cover a wide range of species. Or do you want to make a seperate test for each new species (and who will make a test for a species that is new in captivity)), but that doesn't mean that I'm capable of holding every bird species that exists. Also keep in mind that there is quite difference between being an expert on a certain species and being an expert in the husbandry of the same species.
A husbandry licence could be a good thing and actually already exists in France for some species, where next to a test you have an obligatory stage at an established keeper of the species you want to keep. But to be fair the concrete implementation of such a system in Europe would be very difficult (too many different actors, money, who will be the experts (and this last one will be tricky).
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As I said, it was just the only thing I could think of and it wasn't perfect. I know all species are different, but maybe do the test either on reptile husbandary in general, or better still certain reptile families or orders. If you were the person that decides who the species goes to (say for a thorny devil), then would you send it to somebody with great achievements in agamid husbandary or getting picky species to eat crickets etc, or somebody that's never kept so much as a bearded dragon?
 
DDcorvus said:
Also keep in mind that there is quite difference between being an expert on a certain species and being an expert in the husbandry of the same species.
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That is indeed true to an extent, but a sound knowledge of the animal's natural environment will tell you whether or not it needs UV, how much heating it is likely to need, and whether or not they need a large tank or a small one (Bredls Python is a prime example of a snake that needs a tiny tank). Knowledge of their diet in the wild will also indicate what you can give it in captivity (I doubt that a Leopard Gecko would be too happy with Uromastyx food).
 
No matter how many derogative emoticons might receive: I agree with docend24.

@Pootle: Your latest and your previous posts were just parenthic cants and weasel words, but certainly no clear and thought-out answers. Neither did they reply to the caveats I mentioned in an adequate manner.

Just in case you don't get it: "those who are educated, experienced and qualified to recruit a suitable person for the task in hand." is such an empty cant, probably caused by a lack of deeper knowledge of the subject. Such fiddling spouting off might be of "a satisfactory standard" for you, but certainly isn't, especially when dealing with the subject in reality.
 
Sun Wukong said:
No matter how many derogative emoticons might receive: I agree with docend24.

@Pootle: Your latest and your previous posts were just parenthic cants and weasel words, but certainly no clear and thought-out answers. Neither did they reply to the caveats I mentioned in an adequate manner.

Just in case you don't get it: "those who are educated, experienced and qualified to recruit a suitable person for the task in hand." is such an empty cant, probably caused by a lack of deeper knowledge of the subject. Such fiddling spouting off might be of "a satisfactory standard" for you, but certainly isn't, especially when dealing with the subject in reality.
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boring child rants dont get me to react in any way ;)
 
guys, cut it. Pootle your post was missing the point and your comment to Docent24 was useless. Sun no need to kick. Let's get back on topic.


Selecting a selection board for who can keep the a new species will be highly controversion. A lot of academic experts on certain species miss the husbandry experience needed for to judge how certain needs and behaviour in the wild can be converted to captivity. In Zoos it really depends on individuals, you can have a zoo with a very good reputation but if they send the wrong person (due to lack of time of the expert on a certain group of animals b.e.) to the board this will be useless. Also including private keepers in the board will be something that other stakeholders might (and will) object to.

So although it might appear a minor point in practise this will be a big obstacle for the succes of such a project.
 
Hey, I'm not "kicking", @DDcorvus. I'm just playing tug-of-war with a yapping miniature poodle that already seems to have tugged its tail between its legs..

Yet still you had to reply to that "boring child[ish] rant", didn't you, @Pootle? And still you have nothing of worth to reply with.";)".
 
Sun Wukong said:
Hey, I'm not "kicking", @DDcorvus. I'm just playing tug-of-war with a yapping miniature poodle that already seems to have tugged its tail between its legs..

Yet still you had to reply to that "boring child[ish] rant", didn't you, @Pootle? And still you have nothing of worth to reply with.";)".
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LOL


so brave on a forum....

This minature poodle let go a while ago and let the kids continue playing :)
 
Trust me, not just there...

Too scared that little smiley doggie is? Then hush, back to your little pink dog basket!
 
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