Please forgive my ignorance, but I do not own a television and usually do not listen to the radio or online news sources. Can someone briefly tell me why there is rioting in London?
ZSL London Zoo Rioting
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RowanGreen
Well-Known Member
The spark was on Thursday, when police tried to arrest someone and gunfire resulted. The man being arrested was killed. His familly did a peaceful protest on Saturday night, which led onto rioting in Tottenham.
From there basically many people have just used it as an excuse to express anger, or to commit crime. Many people are just going out looting. The actual 'why' is not a simple question.
The rioting and looting is widespread in London and has spread to other towns and cities. However I'm in London, not far from one of the main centres of trouble, and so far my local area is pretty untouched. One Tesco shop (chain owned by Walmart I think) with smashed windows. It's widespread but patchy.
While I don't believe there is any excuse, I do believe this clip of Ken Livingstone makes some very good points about reasons: LONDON RIOTS - MILLIONAIRE MP'S IMPOSING AUSTERITY ON THE PEOPLE IS THE REASON‏ - YouTube Mare Street in Hackney is probably less than a mile from me.
From there basically many people have just used it as an excuse to express anger, or to commit crime. Many people are just going out looting. The actual 'why' is not a simple question.
The rioting and looting is widespread in London and has spread to other towns and cities. However I'm in London, not far from one of the main centres of trouble, and so far my local area is pretty untouched. One Tesco shop (chain owned by Walmart I think) with smashed windows. It's widespread but patchy.
While I don't believe there is any excuse, I do believe this clip of Ken Livingstone makes some very good points about reasons: LONDON RIOTS - MILLIONAIRE MP'S IMPOSING AUSTERITY ON THE PEOPLE IS THE REASON‏ - YouTube Mare Street in Hackney is probably less than a mile from me.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
'The Riots' are many different incidents. Police shoot dead a man who did not fire on them and then release his name before telling the family, and then don't give the family any more information, leading to a vigil outside the police station, where some women enter the station asking for someone to come out and speak with them, their request is refused. So a protest builds. One 16-year old girl confronts the police and is pulled to the ground by a bunch of them.
'These people' are not subhumans, there is unbelievable disenfranchisement and anger. White, middle-class folk might tut and offer to help clean up the streets of the city they are so proud of, but if you have white or class privilege, you won't see what many of the people rioting have seen and experienced leading up to the riots. If 'mum and dad' helped you through university, and now you're angry because your overpriced flat in a poor district (or 'up-and-coming area', in propertyspeak) was burnt out, yeah I'd be devastated too, but of course you're not rioting, you have privilege, you have things to lose.
Of course everyone can find examples of poor people, or people of colour, who were affected, and disagree with the violence, or who didn't riot themselves, but that doesn't take away from the reasons why those who rioted did so. People in London don't make a fuss when every toilet attendant they see is of South Asian or West African descent, they don't question why people who work in supermarkets or sweep roads are usually people of colour, they don't generally stop and act as a witness when black people and/or muslims are relentlessly stopped-and-searched on the street. They just get on with their shopping and pretend not to see.
In some London boroughs, the Council Housing waiting lists are 15,000 people long. There are no jobs, 50% of young black people are unemployed, those who worked hard at school and are in Further Education have had their EMA cut, and anyone wanting to go to university faces debt that, if they look around them, understandably don't feel able to take on.
To hear the leader of Croydon Council lamenting the destruction in his borough, of peoples' livelihoods, when there are hardly any local businesses there as development and chain stores have all but eradicated them, rings hollow with me.
As for Hackney, that kicked off after a boy was detained under stop-and-search powers but then released without charge after being held. Stop-and-search on young black men has gone up 70% in recent years, the police are basically able to target who they want without consequence....until now.
I live in one of the areas of London affected by the riots. I've been mugged before, I still believe all of the above, and think the violence, though not right, is important once viewed through the lens of privilege.
'These people' are not subhumans, there is unbelievable disenfranchisement and anger. White, middle-class folk might tut and offer to help clean up the streets of the city they are so proud of, but if you have white or class privilege, you won't see what many of the people rioting have seen and experienced leading up to the riots. If 'mum and dad' helped you through university, and now you're angry because your overpriced flat in a poor district (or 'up-and-coming area', in propertyspeak) was burnt out, yeah I'd be devastated too, but of course you're not rioting, you have privilege, you have things to lose.
Of course everyone can find examples of poor people, or people of colour, who were affected, and disagree with the violence, or who didn't riot themselves, but that doesn't take away from the reasons why those who rioted did so. People in London don't make a fuss when every toilet attendant they see is of South Asian or West African descent, they don't question why people who work in supermarkets or sweep roads are usually people of colour, they don't generally stop and act as a witness when black people and/or muslims are relentlessly stopped-and-searched on the street. They just get on with their shopping and pretend not to see.
In some London boroughs, the Council Housing waiting lists are 15,000 people long. There are no jobs, 50% of young black people are unemployed, those who worked hard at school and are in Further Education have had their EMA cut, and anyone wanting to go to university faces debt that, if they look around them, understandably don't feel able to take on.
To hear the leader of Croydon Council lamenting the destruction in his borough, of peoples' livelihoods, when there are hardly any local businesses there as development and chain stores have all but eradicated them, rings hollow with me.
As for Hackney, that kicked off after a boy was detained under stop-and-search powers but then released without charge after being held. Stop-and-search on young black men has gone up 70% in recent years, the police are basically able to target who they want without consequence....until now.
I live in one of the areas of London affected by the riots. I've been mugged before, I still believe all of the above, and think the violence, though not right, is important once viewed through the lens of privilege.
Johnstoni a lot of what you've said may be true of London but what's happening in my city, (Birmingham), is unrelated. It is full on theft and greed being perpertrated by youth's of about 14 to 18 of no definite race! We have black, asian and white kids just vandalising and stealing at whim. I mean they've even looted a sweet shop and McDonalds... Not to mention the picture I saw on facebook of the kid running out of Tesco's with a 5kg bag of Basmati rice, seriously where's the sense in that????
During full employment in the fifties in the U.K., London Transport had difficulty in recruiting staff to work on the buses and the tubes, to help remedy this they opened a recruiting office in Trinidad, employing staff to leave their homeland to come to London to man the buses and the tubes, if it wasn't for those people coming here to do this work, London Transport would have probably ground to a halt, many of these people worked for London Transport for many years, indeed many of their children later became employees of L.T. Just think of it leaving your home in the sunny West Indies to come to London and stand on the platform of a London bus in the freezing winter and be spoken to by some of your passengers in an impolite manner, they should have had a medal.
I lived in NW London from '01 - '02, sadly I haven't been back for a visit in 10 years. Coincidentally, I'm flying over Thursday for the weekend, which certainly will be an interesting time. Not really sure what to expect. I do plan to check out ZSL, and to see which ever animals are remaining in captivity.
It seems a surprise because riots of this kind havent happened recently in places like the UK or USA, but given all are facing similar frustrations of the young people in Greece and Israel and France a few years back, it was perhaps a matter of time before something touched it off. Many of the issues johnstoni mentioned are things I hear here amongst people even here in D.C. which is surprisingly insulated (financially) from the rest of the U.S. In some ways it's compelling to see that people care enough to take action, though it is sad when things turn so quickly to violence and looting.
It seems a surprise because riots of this kind havent happened recently in places like the UK or USA, but given all are facing similar frustrations of the young people in Greece and Israel and France a few years back, it was perhaps a matter of time before something touched it off. Many of the issues johnstoni mentioned are things I hear here amongst people even here in D.C. which is surprisingly insulated (financially) from the rest of the U.S. In some ways it's compelling to see that people care enough to take action, though it is sad when things turn so quickly to violence and looting.
RowanGreen
Well-Known Member
Johnstoni, a really good post. The only quibble I'd have with it is that you are making it 'too black'. I'm sure what you write totally reflects the experiences of many people involved but, as Brum points out, it's not the whole story. In London it wasn't just black people. Unemployed and youth of every race are under the same pressures you describe. The Ken Livingstone clip I posted describes some of them, but another example would be that in Tottenham there's 50 unemployed per job becoming available.
I think this should probably be moved to another forum but I'm glad we are having the discussion.
I pretty much agree with eveything johnstoni. has said but at the same time there are some things I want to add.
Protests are legitimate, anger is legitimate. There are far too many people on whom society and the poltical elites in particular, have simply turned their backs.
And what example do money grabbing politicians, corrupt media moguls, amoral bankers set our young people? The hypocrisy is appalling.
You can guarantee that if Mayfair mansions and City banks were blazing on Saturday night, Boris and the PM would have been back in a flash. They simply don't care about people in places like Tottenham, hence the slow response and hence the spread of disorder.
BUT...
This week I have felt angry and frightened.
Multiple wrongs don't make a right.
Stealing and looting is not justified because you are deprived or ignored by society. In the same way I am always horrified by gang and youth violence. I don't care how crap your life may be, stabbing your peers to prove your worth or masculinity is abhorrant and I can't, no matter how hard I try, empathise with this.
We need to address the causes of the disturbances and the deep-rooted problems in our society but we must react and show that we cannot tolerate this.
On a much smaller scale, how often have we as Londoners, sat on the bus whilst some annoying kid plays his music out loud, disturbing everyone? Or been stuck when the bus doesn't move for twenty minutes because a similar kid jumped on through the exit doors without paying or without their pass and we all have to endure the stand off?
Minor social disturbances about which we are too scared to do anything. Why tell someone to turn down their music when you could get stabbed or at best a torrent of abuse?
And why are we so quick to anger in London? Middle class people turn into snarlling animals on the tube, bike rage, road rage, supermarket queue rage, never too far from the surface. Ever asked someone to move down the bus or into the train so that more people can get on? Good luck if you do. We aren't very civil on the whole. We ignore, close ourselves off, indifference is often the best you can expect.
On a personal note, I'm incredibly lucky. I live in a very nice part of London which hasn't been affected (although Camden and Chalk Farm not far away were, and I was quite scared hearing on Twitter that people were talking about rumours of plans to 'rob' my neighbourhood and nearby areas).
I have, on the whole, had a fairly sheltered existence in my life so far. Yes, I have experienced personal loss, been bullied, and I have high-functioning Asperger's syndrome which means I often find aspects of day-to-day life very difficult in a way which isn't apparent to others but every day there are things people go through in terms of violence, anger and simple nihilistic resignation which I can't imagine and hope never will.
We face a massive challenge. We cannot tolerate this behaviour but we must address the social conditions and context in which it happened.
If I, as an educated, not-rich-but-managing person with a job have no faith in our politcal leaders, no faith in our business leaders, no confidence in the media to report with intergrity and little faith in the police, what hope do we have?
I pretty much agree with eveything johnstoni. has said but at the same time there are some things I want to add.
Protests are legitimate, anger is legitimate. There are far too many people on whom society and the poltical elites in particular, have simply turned their backs.
And what example do money grabbing politicians, corrupt media moguls, amoral bankers set our young people? The hypocrisy is appalling.
You can guarantee that if Mayfair mansions and City banks were blazing on Saturday night, Boris and the PM would have been back in a flash. They simply don't care about people in places like Tottenham, hence the slow response and hence the spread of disorder.
BUT...
This week I have felt angry and frightened.
Multiple wrongs don't make a right.
Stealing and looting is not justified because you are deprived or ignored by society. In the same way I am always horrified by gang and youth violence. I don't care how crap your life may be, stabbing your peers to prove your worth or masculinity is abhorrant and I can't, no matter how hard I try, empathise with this.
We need to address the causes of the disturbances and the deep-rooted problems in our society but we must react and show that we cannot tolerate this.
On a much smaller scale, how often have we as Londoners, sat on the bus whilst some annoying kid plays his music out loud, disturbing everyone? Or been stuck when the bus doesn't move for twenty minutes because a similar kid jumped on through the exit doors without paying or without their pass and we all have to endure the stand off?
Minor social disturbances about which we are too scared to do anything. Why tell someone to turn down their music when you could get stabbed or at best a torrent of abuse?
And why are we so quick to anger in London? Middle class people turn into snarlling animals on the tube, bike rage, road rage, supermarket queue rage, never too far from the surface. Ever asked someone to move down the bus or into the train so that more people can get on? Good luck if you do. We aren't very civil on the whole. We ignore, close ourselves off, indifference is often the best you can expect.
On a personal note, I'm incredibly lucky. I live in a very nice part of London which hasn't been affected (although Camden and Chalk Farm not far away were, and I was quite scared hearing on Twitter that people were talking about rumours of plans to 'rob' my neighbourhood and nearby areas).
I have, on the whole, had a fairly sheltered existence in my life so far. Yes, I have experienced personal loss, been bullied, and I have high-functioning Asperger's syndrome which means I often find aspects of day-to-day life very difficult in a way which isn't apparent to others but every day there are things people go through in terms of violence, anger and simple nihilistic resignation which I can't imagine and hope never will.
We face a massive challenge. We cannot tolerate this behaviour but we must address the social conditions and context in which it happened.
If I, as an educated, not-rich-but-managing person with a job have no faith in our politcal leaders, no faith in our business leaders, no confidence in the media to report with intergrity and little faith in the police, what hope do we have?
A fantastic post (I've trimmed it to save everyone scrolling but the whole thing's brilliant). I'm not a Londoner but otherwise this would cover my view of this more or less exactly.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how anybody can feel sorry for these - there is no other word - criminals. It isn't just the blacks or the asians, but the whites as well so don't get me wrong on that one - and they aren't rioting to protest against social class, or the government or the fact they have no jobs - it is, as one rioter put it when asked by a reporter why do you riot, 'because it is fun!'
FUN! - to burn somebody's house down, to leave innocent families homeless, jobless etc. People were in those homes when they were set alight, lives were put in danger by mindless chavs that are having 'fun.' And these people are Britain's future!?
To add, rioters are all young, mostly teenagers but some are less. There are reports of children aged 7-14 joining in! I'm sorry, does a 7 year old really care about politics, the police, the recession! When I was 7 I hadn't got a clue about any of this sorta stuff, I was still going out and playing in the garden or trying to build dens with friends in the forests. I wasn't smashing windows, throwing bricks at people and stealing for the sake of stealing!
And I can say I'm jobless, degreeless [with no real vision of how I could ever afford further education] and yes the government and such angers me. So, if you'll all sympathise with me for a moment I'm going to make a sensible plan
"I don't have a job, so I'm angry at the government for making cuts and meaning there are less jobs available - so, I'm going to go out now, mug an innocent bystander that has nothing to do with the government or the police [and could be in the same boat as me] and then I'm gonna go off and set a few innocent people's homes on fire and put their lives at risk." - You said these rioters don't have much education, but I'm failing to see how a quarrel with the government relates to attacks on the innocent to anybody?
I'm sorry if I sound cruel, and I know how some of these riots started legitimately, however they have escalated because of mindless people that think it's an excuse. It should be stopped now - as Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "There are alternatives to fighting."
FUN! - to burn somebody's house down, to leave innocent families homeless, jobless etc. People were in those homes when they were set alight, lives were put in danger by mindless chavs that are having 'fun.' And these people are Britain's future!?
To add, rioters are all young, mostly teenagers but some are less. There are reports of children aged 7-14 joining in! I'm sorry, does a 7 year old really care about politics, the police, the recession! When I was 7 I hadn't got a clue about any of this sorta stuff, I was still going out and playing in the garden or trying to build dens with friends in the forests. I wasn't smashing windows, throwing bricks at people and stealing for the sake of stealing!
And I can say I'm jobless, degreeless [with no real vision of how I could ever afford further education] and yes the government and such angers me. So, if you'll all sympathise with me for a moment I'm going to make a sensible plan
"I don't have a job, so I'm angry at the government for making cuts and meaning there are less jobs available - so, I'm going to go out now, mug an innocent bystander that has nothing to do with the government or the police [and could be in the same boat as me] and then I'm gonna go off and set a few innocent people's homes on fire and put their lives at risk." - You said these rioters don't have much education, but I'm failing to see how a quarrel with the government relates to attacks on the innocent to anybody?
I'm sorry if I sound cruel, and I know how some of these riots started legitimately, however they have escalated because of mindless people that think it's an excuse. It should be stopped now - as Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "There are alternatives to fighting."
As I said
There is no doubt that this is criminal and there are lots of copy-cat people - getting involved quite simply because they can get a away with it. They aren't protests and I wouldn't give them the credit of being that.
That doesn't change the fact that as a society we need to ask serious questions about how to deal with this, because those people aren't going to disappear.
They have contempt for society and feel they have nothing to lose, we have to address that.
Agreed Shirokuma - I misread some posts on here before replying and thought some were sympathising. Whilst I can sympathise with the protests [so long as they are peaceful or, at very least, aimed so the only affect those involved], I can't sympathise with the idiots joining in for the sake of it 
I see this is the point now Johnstoni was trying to make - my apologies for the misunderstanding
I see this is the point now Johnstoni was trying to make - my apologies for the misunderstanding
RowanGreen
Well-Known Member
"To add, rioters are all young, mostly teenagers but some are less. There are reports of children aged 7-14 joining in! I'm sorry, does a 7 year old really care about politics, the police, the recession! When I was 7 I hadn't got a clue about any of this sorta stuff, I was still going out and playing in the garden or trying to build dens with friends in the forests. I wasn't smashing windows, throwing bricks at people and stealing for the sake of stealing!"
So, you had gardens and forests to play in. What would you have been doing if you hadn't? These kids don't. In many cases their only option is street corners where they may be moved on or stopped and searched by police on a regular basis. Funding for youth centres etc (which were too few anyway) has been cut by around 75%
Not excusing, just seeking explanations and ways forward.
So, you had gardens and forests to play in. What would you have been doing if you hadn't? These kids don't. In many cases their only option is street corners where they may be moved on or stopped and searched by police on a regular basis. Funding for youth centres etc (which were too few anyway) has been cut by around 75%
Not excusing, just seeking explanations and ways forward.
Pootle
Well-Known Member
They are a bunch of feral kids who are beyond help and no discipline can help this lot. None of this feeling sorry for them for being deprived, round them up, stick them all on an old ship and point it away from England.
We don’t want them, let someone else have them, if no one else wants them let them rot.
Blunt yes, but that is my view.
These rioters are probably in 90% plus of cases thick people, no education, no moral understanding of manners and are happy to spend the rest of their dirty lives scrounging off the rest of society. That is a dangerous combination of traits to have in one person. This is a set of traits that have developed over time more and more in this country especially over the last 20 years and this is down to the way society has let adolescents be brought up with less and less discipline. There is currently no management of punishment for the breaking of rules.
I am 37 years old. When I was starting secondary school myself (11-16 yr olds) here (UK) the corporal punishment was just being ruled out, so you could not get a cane whipped across your backside or palm for breaking a rule, since this time more and more punishments have been dissolved and over this time we have been bringing up children in a schooling environment were the kids are pulling the strings and giving the teachers grief, ie the tail wagging the dog.
The feral delinquents on the streets of the UK rioting and looting in recent days must surely show us now that we need to start wagging the tail again and put a stop to this ‘namby pamby’ society we live in. Bring back sensible strict discipline with punishments for those who break rules rather than a kiss and a cuddle and feeling sorry for someone because they have broken a rule.
For example if someone vandalised an innocent persons house with graffiti they should be made to apologise to the person affected and then be made to clean graffiti off other buildings for at least 10 times the time it took them to do the crime.
I think the police should have the right to use battens on people without repercussion and questioning. If the officer feels it is necessary to clean up a situation then act accordingly. Teachers should have the right to discipline children more and get them in line at an early age. These are to me just a few basic laws that need changing now and for the better to all us law abiding folk.
Too many now are beyond any help and that is why my comment at the top is what it is. Get rid of them before they start breeding themselves and add to the PROBLEM POPULATION. Unfortunately many of them are currently breeding and are doing so not like us to raise a family, but more breeding in their eyes means more money in the form of government handouts for them.
The riots are sickening, but if it means we can start to stamp out this scum of the population then lets start the stamping out.
We don’t want them, let someone else have them, if no one else wants them let them rot.
Blunt yes, but that is my view.
These rioters are probably in 90% plus of cases thick people, no education, no moral understanding of manners and are happy to spend the rest of their dirty lives scrounging off the rest of society. That is a dangerous combination of traits to have in one person. This is a set of traits that have developed over time more and more in this country especially over the last 20 years and this is down to the way society has let adolescents be brought up with less and less discipline. There is currently no management of punishment for the breaking of rules.
I am 37 years old. When I was starting secondary school myself (11-16 yr olds) here (UK) the corporal punishment was just being ruled out, so you could not get a cane whipped across your backside or palm for breaking a rule, since this time more and more punishments have been dissolved and over this time we have been bringing up children in a schooling environment were the kids are pulling the strings and giving the teachers grief, ie the tail wagging the dog.
The feral delinquents on the streets of the UK rioting and looting in recent days must surely show us now that we need to start wagging the tail again and put a stop to this ‘namby pamby’ society we live in. Bring back sensible strict discipline with punishments for those who break rules rather than a kiss and a cuddle and feeling sorry for someone because they have broken a rule.
For example if someone vandalised an innocent persons house with graffiti they should be made to apologise to the person affected and then be made to clean graffiti off other buildings for at least 10 times the time it took them to do the crime.
I think the police should have the right to use battens on people without repercussion and questioning. If the officer feels it is necessary to clean up a situation then act accordingly. Teachers should have the right to discipline children more and get them in line at an early age. These are to me just a few basic laws that need changing now and for the better to all us law abiding folk.
Too many now are beyond any help and that is why my comment at the top is what it is. Get rid of them before they start breeding themselves and add to the PROBLEM POPULATION. Unfortunately many of them are currently breeding and are doing so not like us to raise a family, but more breeding in their eyes means more money in the form of government handouts for them.
The riots are sickening, but if it means we can start to stamp out this scum of the population then lets start the stamping out.
adrian1963
Well-Known Member
Of what I have seen these ****** are simply cowards and should be taught a lesson.
I don't understand why water cannon was not used if they were to add a bright blue or orange permanent dye to the water then the police and parents could see the next day who was causing the trouble and round them up.
On punishment we have too many do gooders in this country and the humans rights people are just as bad but here goes.
Why not make them work on the street they have destroyed by cleaning the gutters, Painting the shop fronts, Collecting Rubbish, Taking deliveries to old age pensioners, cleaning churchyards, doing up old age pensioners gardens all this without pay.
Length of time for punishment talk to the insurers about the amount they have to payout and divide the cash amount by the number of claims end result equals hours to be worked at the same rate as prisoners get when inside (roughly £14/£15.00 per 40 hour week)
Failure to do this should result in a prison sentence of no less then the period of time it would have taken to clear the debt and no good time off period either.
This is just my thoughts or how about some good old fashion parenting.
I don't understand why water cannon was not used if they were to add a bright blue or orange permanent dye to the water then the police and parents could see the next day who was causing the trouble and round them up.
On punishment we have too many do gooders in this country and the humans rights people are just as bad but here goes.
Why not make them work on the street they have destroyed by cleaning the gutters, Painting the shop fronts, Collecting Rubbish, Taking deliveries to old age pensioners, cleaning churchyards, doing up old age pensioners gardens all this without pay.
Length of time for punishment talk to the insurers about the amount they have to payout and divide the cash amount by the number of claims end result equals hours to be worked at the same rate as prisoners get when inside (roughly £14/£15.00 per 40 hour week)
Failure to do this should result in a prison sentence of no less then the period of time it would have taken to clear the debt and no good time off period either.
This is just my thoughts or how about some good old fashion parenting.
Thats horsh!t. They still have parks, go play football. Nobody forces them to hang out on street corners. Nobody forces them to do drugs, carry guns etc. They make those choices. Let the ****** suffer the punishments.
There is a reason the police stop and search certain aspects of the community. Because statistics show they are more likely to be causing trouble. If the thick w*****s didn't do things to rise suspicion they wouldn't get stopped and searched.
Any scanky chav caught in this should be sterilised.
I'll be honest with you all, when I was 15-19 I probably fitted the key demographic of the rioters - Didn't finish school, grew up on a council estate, no job or dead end job, no where to go at night... But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone looting, as I said before a lot of this is down to greed and oppurtunistic thieving! Some of the images on BBC Midlands Today are just brazen theft and I totally understand why the police have stood by a lot of times. I would not want to take on a mob, uniform or not, mob mentality is usually the IQ of it's lowest member divided by the amount of people in the mob! (To quote Terry Pratchett).
KCZooFan
Well-Known Member
I like these thoughts a lot. I'm not very familiar with what is going on, but it sounds like they are commiting crimes and police need to step up their efforts. Im thinking tear gas.
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