Taronga Zoo Kodiak Bears. GOING GOING...3,2
- Thread starter Coquinguy
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glyn - i agree that sunbears are as good a choice as any other (though i do think the program got off to a slack start).
actually, if we were to eventually have the resources to manage another bear species (and i hope one day we do) i'de probably pick indian sloth bears (rescued "dancing" bears of course). my close second choice would be rescued asiatic blacks and a far third would be andean bears.
american blacks would have to be just a smidge above polar bears (at the bottom) on my "appropriate list".
actually, if we were to eventually have the resources to manage another bear species (and i hope one day we do) i'de probably pick indian sloth bears (rescued "dancing" bears of course). my close second choice would be rescued asiatic blacks and a far third would be andean bears.
american blacks would have to be just a smidge above polar bears (at the bottom) on my "appropriate list".
absolutely Patrick. Seaworld has the resources (and the need) to persist with its program for Polar Bears but i wouldnt like to see any other major Australian Zoo get on board with this program unless Sun Bears were absolutely assured.
weve worked it out before havent we? the number of zoos participating in the SB program and the number wanting to get on board or we assume will (such as Melbourne) and even collectively, these zoos only just make up a sustainable ASMP in terms of regional holding.....so to begrudge the lack of diversity of bear species in the region's zoos is unrealistic.
of course, in a decade or so the sun bear ASMP may have really started to get going and recover from its 'slack beginnings' of zoos importing rescued animals with major problems and keeping them in adequate, albeit not great enclosures and hoping for them to breed.
I can only hope that Wellington's experiences will be adopted and put into practice across the region and this species gets breeding, incorporating what is currently a large (but rapidly ageing) founder population.
then, if Australian zoos were in a position to maintain another species then I agree with Sloth Bears, which I feel would do well in open-range zoos too. such as WPZ (if it hasnt closed by then
).
weve worked it out before havent we? the number of zoos participating in the SB program and the number wanting to get on board or we assume will (such as Melbourne) and even collectively, these zoos only just make up a sustainable ASMP in terms of regional holding.....so to begrudge the lack of diversity of bear species in the region's zoos is unrealistic.
of course, in a decade or so the sun bear ASMP may have really started to get going and recover from its 'slack beginnings' of zoos importing rescued animals with major problems and keeping them in adequate, albeit not great enclosures and hoping for them to breed.
I can only hope that Wellington's experiences will be adopted and put into practice across the region and this species gets breeding, incorporating what is currently a large (but rapidly ageing) founder population.
then, if Australian zoos were in a position to maintain another species then I agree with Sloth Bears, which I feel would do well in open-range zoos too. such as WPZ (if it hasnt closed by then
).could i actually ask what people's problem is with Sun Bears? Next to Giant Pandas and Polars they are surely the next most charismatic, marketable and threatened species.
they are so cute (oh god im saying that) with their big long tongues, moon chests and bandy legs, they are always active and engaging and have the potential (which is already being used) to link in-situ conservation with ex-situ conservation.
i wouldnt begrudge Australsian zoo visitors donating to an Asian Bear charity, but I think Id have a problem if visitors to Taronga Zoo started donating to the upkeep, of say, Yellowstone National Park........
they are so cute (oh god im saying that) with their big long tongues, moon chests and bandy legs, they are always active and engaging and have the potential (which is already being used) to link in-situ conservation with ex-situ conservation.
i wouldnt begrudge Australsian zoo visitors donating to an Asian Bear charity, but I think Id have a problem if visitors to Taronga Zoo started donating to the upkeep, of say, Yellowstone National Park........
I don't like them as much as kodiaks.
What makes them more charismatic then a Kodiak?
Go to Taronga and see which species has the bigger group of zoo goers in front of it's exhibit. ( maybe thats not fair on the sun bears because of their current exhibit being ****, but most zoo goers would be at the kodiaks)
yeah kodiaks a big and "typical" of what most people think of when they think bear. i also agree they are a spectacular animal and they have never been appreciated anywhere near as much as they deserve.
but i don't think we can get into a species vs species debate. isn't a bit like comparing
big cats species? cos in truth don't we kinda like em all?
the reason i don't want kodiaks retained is because they are american (ie; not in need of conservation dollars from us), they are not threatened, and they are a temperate bear, restricting the amount of zoos i believe can adequately house them here (and thus compromising a breeding program).
i'm not a fan of brown bears in tropical cairns...
i do love brown bears, indeed they are among my favorites. but to me sunbears fit the bill, and looks at the end of the day had nothing to do with it.
and glyn - thats my secret desire too, sloth bears on the open range!
but i don't think we can get into a species vs species debate. isn't a bit like comparing
big cats species? cos in truth don't we kinda like em all?
the reason i don't want kodiaks retained is because they are american (ie; not in need of conservation dollars from us), they are not threatened, and they are a temperate bear, restricting the amount of zoos i believe can adequately house them here (and thus compromising a breeding program).
i'm not a fan of brown bears in tropical cairns...
i do love brown bears, indeed they are among my favorites. but to me sunbears fit the bill, and looks at the end of the day had nothing to do with it.
and glyn - thats my secret desire too, sloth bears on the open range!
No problem with sun bears here, glyn - no matter how much I bewail the loss of the others. Although I "bag" them a little by comparison I'd hate to lose them too!
Sun bears ARE cute (There-I've said it too) and quite exotic to look at and they should be emphasised more in publicity. (They should have a "meerkat" job done on them, although we don't have Disney to help.) Their ability to still climb in adulthood is an attractive feature too and should be emphasised in zoos, with good (natural) climbing facilities provided.
I agree also about sloth bears. As a kid I was fortunate to see sloth bears in Melbourne zoo, and very interesting and attractive they were too. I remember the keeper showed up with a carton of a dozen eggs, and began to roll the eggs through the cage bars. Those eggs all disappeared in about ten seconds! Very entertaining!
Sun bears ARE cute (There-I've said it too) and quite exotic to look at and they should be emphasised more in publicity. (They should have a "meerkat" job done on them, although we don't have Disney to help.) Their ability to still climb in adulthood is an attractive feature too and should be emphasised in zoos, with good (natural) climbing facilities provided.
I agree also about sloth bears. As a kid I was fortunate to see sloth bears in Melbourne zoo, and very interesting and attractive they were too. I remember the keeper showed up with a carton of a dozen eggs, and began to roll the eggs through the cage bars. Those eggs all disappeared in about ten seconds! Very entertaining!
Sun bears are my favorites to (Although I am yet to see one) because brown bears of any sort are so typical and plain. It used to be polar bears but the whole save them from climate change has turned me off them. Spectacled bears would be my second choice for Australia because then we could have some variety from different places and all the asian trails in Australia will have two types of bears, sumatran tigers, orang utans, gibbons and elephants while all south America gets is macaws and marmosets. Spectacled bears are a bit endangered aren't they?
climate change has turned you off polar bears??? shouldnt their plight be making you more aware???
I think perhaps the reason why the 3,2 now one geriatric kodiak bears at Taronga manage to draw such a crowd in spite of their relative inactivity would have to do with the fact that their prominent exhibit is right on the main boulevard opposite the prominent elephants, next to the essential food market, up the road from the popular gorillas and neighbouring the big cats.
i think you could stick a stuffed bear in that exhibit and it would draw a crowd
anyway, it probably is time to give sun bears the 'lion king', 'madagascar' 'happy feet' treatment. designing an exhibit for them or putting them into a more prominent enclosure where they could be better appreciated would be a start, not a cave with a tiny viewing window bypassed by most visitors.
I think perhaps the reason why the 3,2 now one geriatric kodiak bears at Taronga manage to draw such a crowd in spite of their relative inactivity would have to do with the fact that their prominent exhibit is right on the main boulevard opposite the prominent elephants, next to the essential food market, up the road from the popular gorillas and neighbouring the big cats.
i think you could stick a stuffed bear in that exhibit and it would draw a crowd
anyway, it probably is time to give sun bears the 'lion king', 'madagascar' 'happy feet' treatment. designing an exhibit for them or putting them into a more prominent enclosure where they could be better appreciated would be a start, not a cave with a tiny viewing window bypassed by most visitors.
@glyn: you've created a fairly popular thread here, and I assume that is testament to the fact that everyone loves bears of all shapes and sizes. People in Australia wish there were more bears in their zoos, and yet the sun bear program has a ton of potential for the future. A baby bear with a yellow crescent on its chest would be a gold mine in terms of both awareness and attendance.
When I visited Taronga Zoo one of the sun bears was pacing back and forth relentlessly, and it was pitiful to watch. The enclosure is full of logs and foliage, but it is definitely hidden away and more than likely many visitors bypass it completely. Isn't it true that the Perth Zoo has a decent, fairly new sun bear exhibit? That might be the one to copy for Taronga, but I'm sure that once the last brown bear dies off then the sun bears will simply be shifted to the empty enclosure.
I agree with some of the remarks concerning the welfare of specific bear species. In all honesty polar, brown and american black bears should not be kept in Australian zoos, and for Cairns to have some browns is nothing short of ridiculous. In all of the United States there are only about 250 grizzlies in Yellowstone National Park, and 98% of all brown bears in North America are found in either Canada or Alaska. It's freezing cold for most of the year, with constant rain and many snowy days. What does Cairns have to offer besides 40 degree summers?
When I visited Taronga Zoo one of the sun bears was pacing back and forth relentlessly, and it was pitiful to watch. The enclosure is full of logs and foliage, but it is definitely hidden away and more than likely many visitors bypass it completely. Isn't it true that the Perth Zoo has a decent, fairly new sun bear exhibit? That might be the one to copy for Taronga, but I'm sure that once the last brown bear dies off then the sun bears will simply be shifted to the empty enclosure.
I agree with some of the remarks concerning the welfare of specific bear species. In all honesty polar, brown and american black bears should not be kept in Australian zoos, and for Cairns to have some browns is nothing short of ridiculous. In all of the United States there are only about 250 grizzlies in Yellowstone National Park, and 98% of all brown bears in North America are found in either Canada or Alaska. It's freezing cold for most of the year, with constant rain and many snowy days. What does Cairns have to offer besides 40 degree summers?
the brown bears in Cairns doesnt really bother me that much. the first two syrians to move there were from Perth, which as you would be aware, is very hot in summer and quite warm even in winter. perhaps not as humid as Cairns but im sure these two animals didnt take too long to adjust, in spite of their age.
Cairns also has Japanese Macaques. Seaworld keeps Polar Bears. Taronga has Snow Leopards. Northern Hempisphere Zoos all keep large mammals outdoors in summer temperatures equivelent to Australian winters. Given the right exhibit with plenty of micro-climates these animals are bound to cope. Paricularly tough animals like Brown Bears.....
Back to Taronga. Weve discussed before the potential for Bear Canyon for conversion to Sun Bear Jungle, or whatever name they think of it and I dont think it will be two difficult. For starters, they will be able to seperate the sexes, mimicing Perth's state of the art breeding set-up. Zoos are yet to establih if seperating the sexes helps breeding but it gives management flexibilty which they currently dont have. Some 'chimpanzee park' style dead trees installed in the canyon would be amazing for the sun bears and greatly add to the ammount of usable space for the animals.
Now down to the pacing. This has been an ongoing issue for me which I actually have, on a number of occassions asked the zoo to address(something I normally dont do because normally it falls on deaf ears anyway). Victoria and Mr Hobbs were rescued from Asia and had already developed stereotypic behaviours including pacing when they arrived in Sydney. The zoo, which does alot to prevent this problem needs to publicly ackowledge the issue and point out the real reasons behind the behaviours and the background of these 2 bears.
Given that one half of this pair is sterile I would like to see them split up and a new animal received from within Australia to get the program started and utilise the gene pool. Seems Taronga is the venue for these sorts of exchanges so lets get it happening.
On a side note, with numbers of Orangutan at Taronga down to what would have to been an all-time low, does anyone know of any animals to be sent to Taronga or are we just maintaining? How many Orangs are left? Is it just Jantan and Willow?
Cairns also has Japanese Macaques. Seaworld keeps Polar Bears. Taronga has Snow Leopards. Northern Hempisphere Zoos all keep large mammals outdoors in summer temperatures equivelent to Australian winters. Given the right exhibit with plenty of micro-climates these animals are bound to cope. Paricularly tough animals like Brown Bears.....
Back to Taronga. Weve discussed before the potential for Bear Canyon for conversion to Sun Bear Jungle, or whatever name they think of it and I dont think it will be two difficult. For starters, they will be able to seperate the sexes, mimicing Perth's state of the art breeding set-up. Zoos are yet to establih if seperating the sexes helps breeding but it gives management flexibilty which they currently dont have. Some 'chimpanzee park' style dead trees installed in the canyon would be amazing for the sun bears and greatly add to the ammount of usable space for the animals.
Now down to the pacing. This has been an ongoing issue for me which I actually have, on a number of occassions asked the zoo to address(something I normally dont do because normally it falls on deaf ears anyway). Victoria and Mr Hobbs were rescued from Asia and had already developed stereotypic behaviours including pacing when they arrived in Sydney. The zoo, which does alot to prevent this problem needs to publicly ackowledge the issue and point out the real reasons behind the behaviours and the background of these 2 bears.
Given that one half of this pair is sterile I would like to see them split up and a new animal received from within Australia to get the program started and utilise the gene pool. Seems Taronga is the venue for these sorts of exchanges so lets get it happening.
On a side note, with numbers of Orangutan at Taronga down to what would have to been an all-time low, does anyone know of any animals to be sent to Taronga or are we just maintaining? How many Orangs are left? Is it just Jantan and Willow?
I'm not sure that welfare on a temperature basis should completely restrict Australia from managing cool-climate bear species in the future. Historically brown bears have ranged into warm climates as Syria and Mexico. Also southern parts of Australia do get cold enough to cause winter drowsiness in captive bears. Cairns managing three older brown bears is probably not the ideal solution though.
I do agree that keeping polar bears in QLD would however seem to be a bit odd, but I guess that if somebody like Seaworld is able to put enough resources to provide the right conditions then so be it. At least they understand the needs of the species. I have more of a problem with a tropical zoo managing polar bears without putting in the resources aka Singapore.
Singapore is renowned for being the greatest Asian zoo in the world, but the polar bear exhibit looks as if it was constructed a few hundred years ago. An antiquated enclosure with a green polar bear (thriving algae in the hair follicles) never did look impressive to tourists.
on singapore: the fact that they cited old age as their excuse for them choosing to maintain their bears (but at least phase-out) was meritless. zoos often cite old age and the potential stress of transfer as an excuse, yet happily move older animals when it suits them to do so. alaska zoo argued the same point with maggie the elephant over and over again. of course she transferred just fine and i'd bet it ultimately extended her life expectancy.
on maintaining temperate bear species in the region: its not zoos like melbourne, adelaide or even sydney that really put me off maintaining temperate species. indeed particularly in my city, the weather here is often in that sort of in-between range that can comfortably suit most species. so long as the monkeys have heat lamps in our crisp winters and the bears have swimming pools in our hot dry summers all the species seem to manage just fine. most species are adapted to naturally deal with temporary temperature fluctuations.
but ultimately i'm an advocate of shifting to managed properly managed breeding programs for all our species, so when choosing a species to be managed in the region its important to not just look at how many zoos can suitably house them but how many can't. the hot dry summers of australia are, in general, unsuitable for species such as snow leopards and cold temperate bear species such as kodiaks. and thus ultimately the zoo population and breeding program could only humanely be distributed amongst a few new zealand and southern australian zoos. now true we barely have enough zoos between our two countries as is and true also that there are very few zoos in northern australia either. but its something to keep in mind. if we are pushing for sustainable populations above twenty - your looking at cooler clime zoos needing to keep more than two bears, permanently.
on maintaining temperate bear species in the region: its not zoos like melbourne, adelaide or even sydney that really put me off maintaining temperate species. indeed particularly in my city, the weather here is often in that sort of in-between range that can comfortably suit most species. so long as the monkeys have heat lamps in our crisp winters and the bears have swimming pools in our hot dry summers all the species seem to manage just fine. most species are adapted to naturally deal with temporary temperature fluctuations.
but ultimately i'm an advocate of shifting to managed properly managed breeding programs for all our species, so when choosing a species to be managed in the region its important to not just look at how many zoos can suitably house them but how many can't. the hot dry summers of australia are, in general, unsuitable for species such as snow leopards and cold temperate bear species such as kodiaks. and thus ultimately the zoo population and breeding program could only humanely be distributed amongst a few new zealand and southern australian zoos. now true we barely have enough zoos between our two countries as is and true also that there are very few zoos in northern australia either. but its something to keep in mind. if we are pushing for sustainable populations above twenty - your looking at cooler clime zoos needing to keep more than two bears, permanently.
The argument in regards to cold or hot weather climates works both ways. I've mentioned on other threads how it's borderline animal cruelty to keep tropical species in cold weather climates. For the past week Calgary and Edmonton in Alberta, Canada have been hit by massive storms and the cities have been blanketed in snow. Spring has failed to arrive and winter refuses to die! The Edmonton Valley Zoo has one solitary elephant locked in her barn for days on end, and the Calgary Zoo has around 4 elephants all trapped inside. Occasionally they are let out into the snow, but it's obviously not the best solution to the weather crisis.
On the other end of the spectrum there are brown bears in sunny Cairns which to me is borderline ridiculous. Brown bears are on the State flag of California but haven't been found in that State in probably over 150 years, and it's difficult to compare California to northern Queensland as its much more humid near Cairns. Examples of animals living in extreme weather conditions just illustrates the irresponsibility of many zoos.
On the other end of the spectrum there are brown bears in sunny Cairns which to me is borderline ridiculous. Brown bears are on the State flag of California but haven't been found in that State in probably over 150 years, and it's difficult to compare California to northern Queensland as its much more humid near Cairns. Examples of animals living in extreme weather conditions just illustrates the irresponsibility of many zoos.
I went to Taronga today. The remaining female Kodiak Bear was sleeping in her cave, totally inactive. On the other hands, Sun Bears were drawing a big crowd with a Volunteer posted at the exhibit, explaining their past and drumming up suppor for the ARAZPA asian bear campaign. Good work.
Was there really a "free the bears" campaign at Melbourne Zoo?
:The Daily Star: Internet Edition
Here are some animals that are truly suffering from the heat.
:The Daily Star: Internet Edition
Here are some animals that are truly suffering from the heat.
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