^the thing is, any zoo who would dare to try and aquire javan rhino would come under huge amounts of critisism, no matter how much good it may do, it will always be out weighed with the argument 'taking them out of there natural habitat is doing them more harm than good'
WWF confirm Javan rhinoceros is extinct in Vietnam
- Thread starter Surroundx
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also, the official description of there habitat on wikipedia is 'It [javan rhino] historically inhabited lowland rain forest, wet grasslands and large floodplains'
so it seems as if a sutible habitat for breeding in a zoo would be a mix between forest and grassland.
on a side note, does anyone have a picture of cincinatti's sumatran rhino paddock? as i have not seen it. does it reflect the inhabitants natural habitat?
so it seems as if a sutible habitat for breeding in a zoo would be a mix between forest and grassland.
on a side note, does anyone have a picture of cincinatti's sumatran rhino paddock? as i have not seen it. does it reflect the inhabitants natural habitat?
I don't think that a single zoo would try it on their own, as with the earlier Sumatran project it would at the very least probably be a network of zoos. I think that you are likely right that no zoo would try and display them, at least not before a stable functioning breeding population is established.
Perhaps they would try and set up a breeding center in the range state as they have done for Sumatrans also. I know that Andalas is at the range breeding center now. Is that facility actually breeding Sumatran rhinos?
I've raised this issue before. Because Javan and Indian are so closely related I believe their habits and diet to be fundamentally similar. As mentioned Indian rhino breeds freely in Zoos and so I don't think there would be anything like the problems with Javans in captivity as encountered with Sumatran Rhinos.
Indian Rhino is indeed primarily a grazer- go to Kaziranga and you'll see them dotted about on the green grassy swards and open meadows, rather than deep in jungle(there isn't a lot of that in Kaziranga). I agree its most likely Javan has the same fundamental diet as its close relative.
The problem is with such a small and elusive population, there is reluctance to take the risk of capturing a nucleus for captive breeding.
Some of the most immediate conservation concerns in UK are now being addressed. I would say that the biggest threats are invasive palm trees and the spiralling banteng growth in numbers. Both issues have been identified as preventing an increase in rhino usage of UK and/or rhino increase per se. The new Gunung Honje area is exactly an attempt at captive-breeding before sending on some individuals to a second forest reserve elsewhere on Java to set up a satellite herd. Also, currently thanks to a great gift camera trapping is finally putting an exact estimate on rhino numbers and sex/age ratios.
For now, captive-breeding ex situ is out-of-the-question AND unrealistic.
For now, captive-breeding ex situ is out-of-the-question AND unrealistic.
What will this entail- will rhinos be placed in a holding area similar to the Way Kambas set-up in Sumatra?
Do you know when results of the population analysis are expected?
Thank you Kifaru Bwana for this information, this sounds seriously good.
I`d say a ZOO would the worst place for an ex-situ try of breeding a large mammal species. I have the feeling that most of you totally ignore the stress capture means for wildcaught animals once they`re past baby age. Wild-caught rhinos would need very large, naturally equipped enclosures far away from noisy visitors, and ideally close to their home range so that the climate is suitable and the travel time as short as possible.
Centers like the one in Way Kambas are the best shot any semi-ex-situ-efforts have.
My main concern against an ex-situ try with Javan rhinos is that all the above (javan rhinos being like greater one horned rhino) is based on guess. If this guess is wrong and their reproductive ecology is as tricky as the sumatran rhinos, all efforts would be doomed. I would not even think about this until a lot more is known about javan rhino reproduction in the wild. At least they are breeding there!!
With just 3 births in the whole program and just a single female who ever sucessfully bred, I`d even doubt if the sumatran rhino biology is sufficently understood. With such a small sample, there must be tons of questions no one can answer right now.
And while no small population is safe from natural disasters, the rhinos in Udjong Kulon seem to be pretty safe from poachers and logging. Great to hear that the issues about the banteng and the pest plants are now adressed.
I`d say a ZOO would the worst place for an ex-situ try of breeding a large mammal species. I have the feeling that most of you totally ignore the stress capture means for wildcaught animals once they`re past baby age. Wild-caught rhinos would need very large, naturally equipped enclosures far away from noisy visitors, and ideally close to their home range so that the climate is suitable and the travel time as short as possible.
Centers like the one in Way Kambas are the best shot any semi-ex-situ-efforts have.
My main concern against an ex-situ try with Javan rhinos is that all the above (javan rhinos being like greater one horned rhino) is based on guess. If this guess is wrong and their reproductive ecology is as tricky as the sumatran rhinos, all efforts would be doomed. I would not even think about this until a lot more is known about javan rhino reproduction in the wild. At least they are breeding there!!
With just 3 births in the whole program and just a single female who ever sucessfully bred, I`d even doubt if the sumatran rhino biology is sufficently understood. With such a small sample, there must be tons of questions no one can answer right now.
And while no small population is safe from natural disasters, the rhinos in Udjong Kulon seem to be pretty safe from poachers and logging. Great to hear that the issues about the banteng and the pest plants are now adressed.
gorgeousingray
Well-Known Member
Yes, a breeding center in the home range needs to be established. Then hopefully young animals, born and raised in a semi-captive environment, can be relocated to the western world to participate in a world wide collaborative breeding program.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Can anyone honestly believe that ANYWHERE in SE Asia is safe from poachers? The peculiar values placed upon rhino horn apparently value Asian rhinos more highly than African, and the demand in China and Vietnam is right on these highly imperiled mammals' doorstep.
By all accounts Cat Tien was as remote as it gets, That didn't stop well organised poaching gangs from successfully eradicating a population, that might have been viable left to its own devices, in a dozen years. Whether the park gurds were under-resourced, ineffectual, or worse, we'll never know.
Ex-situ conservation HAS to be attempted. In the case of the Sumatran rhino, if the animal is to survive then we need to understand how to manipulate its breeding biology and move animals around safely anyway; it seems the surviving pockets of animals are too scattered to be left to their own devices.
Are rhinos anywhere safe from poaching?! Just a few days ago there was a lot in the german press about zoos being advised to increase security because poachers might target zoo animals. The rhinos in Ujdong Kulon may not be 100% safe, but poaching has NOT been an issue for a long time. Which, regarding the very high risk of capture, is good enough for me right now.
And re the rhinos in Cat Tien, one rhino was confirmed to have been poached in 2010. One single. I am not aware that since the rediscovery in 1996 any more had been poached. From what I`ve read researchers were concerned because some areas within the supposed key habitat was used by locals, and they feared that would disturb the rhinos. Given that hardly anything is and was known about the rhinos in Cat Tien, I don`t even know if claims that they could have been saved with better protection are true. Since with the exeption of the single death in 2010, no one knows why the other rhinos did not breed and why they died. It may have been already too late when they were rediscovered. My personal opinion is that the death sentence for the mainland javan rhino was not lack of protection from 1996-2010, but lack of protection and poaching many years earlier. When a species that reproduces so slowly gets down to such low numbers, too much is down to pure luck.
And re the rhinos in Cat Tien, one rhino was confirmed to have been poached in 2010. One single. I am not aware that since the rediscovery in 1996 any more had been poached. From what I`ve read researchers were concerned because some areas within the supposed key habitat was used by locals, and they feared that would disturb the rhinos. Given that hardly anything is and was known about the rhinos in Cat Tien, I don`t even know if claims that they could have been saved with better protection are true. Since with the exeption of the single death in 2010, no one knows why the other rhinos did not breed and why they died. It may have been already too late when they were rediscovered. My personal opinion is that the death sentence for the mainland javan rhino was not lack of protection from 1996-2010, but lack of protection and poaching many years earlier. When a species that reproduces so slowly gets down to such low numbers, too much is down to pure luck.
Thanks for the information Kifaru Bwana. Is there a website or newsletter of some kind that we can visit to keep informed on how the Javan rhino work is going and what we (and the zoos that we visit or work at maybe?) can do to help with the rhino research/conservation?
Who is doing this work? Is it primarily Indonesian government wildlife staff or are they also working with WWF and/or other groups?
One thing Ujdong Kulon may have going for it is its high profile and presumably high amount of park personnel and security whereas maybe Cat Tien's remoteness worked against the rhino survival because they could all be picked off without detection. This is just speculation. During the elephant poaching epidemic of the late 1980s the elephants in Amboseli in Kenya were hit, but not hammered as hard as other places possibly because Cynthia Moss and her colleagues were out there watching them all the time.
I am not sure I or anybody else truly knows SE Asia, even Asians themselves
Your question:- Establish as group of 3-4 zoos in Europe or USA experienced in breeding Indian rhinos and set facilities. They can be used for other rhinos if the Javan rhino program fails.
- Check if health and reproductive status of rhinos can be checked before export using eg. portable ultrasonographs. No point in exporting sick or elderly rhinos.
- Using tracking to find juvenile or young rhinos and dart them with tranquilizer guns. More difficult than pits, but poachers can shoot rhinos using normal guns, not?
- Export 4-5 rhinos to fine tune husbandry.
- If everything goes well, export 10-15 rhinos within 5 year period.
Cost is in ten millions of dollars, but this is a cost of one major zoo exhibit.
What I wouldn't do:
- Start new breeding centre in Indonesia. Sorry, but breeding centres in tropical countries usually have big problems with security, untrained staff, organization, hygiene, funding etc. Compare sumatran rhino centres. This doesn’t compensate for advantages of local climate and transport.
- Assume that javan rhino needs extremely big enclosure, space etc. They most likely like Indian rhino breed in what can be called good-standard zoo.
I know it is impossible for political and social reasons. Government would not export animals, even if they go extinct, field workers hate zoos, there is no coordination between parties, people feel that doing nothing is politically safer than risk taking etc. But you asked what should be done if human problems did not exist.
Also, I remind with problem of Ujung Kulon:
- Reserve is thick forest, marginal habitat for grazing rhino,
- Habitat gets worse as the forest matures
- Rhino population is at carrying capacity with no food to grow
- Rhino population of this size will go extinct purely from inbreeding.
- Rhinos will be forever vulnerable to disease at a single site
- Rhinos will be forever vulnerable to breakdown of security, eg. refugees
- Rhinos will be forever vulnerable to natural catastrophe like Krakatoa.
All these problems were named 30? 40? years ago - and nothing was done.
Overall, I want to say, that protecting rhinos is also organization effort. You need your plan to fit not only biology and mythos of free nature, but also national and local security, organization, trained staff and funding. Not understanding will make rhinos extinct.
Everybody understands than you cannot keep gold under poor protection, because it will be stolen. Rhino horn costs more than its weight in gold. Nevertheless, well-meaning people try keeping rhinos in poorly protected reserves and cry with surprise when another rhino subspecies gone extinct.
Sorry Jurek7, I have to disagree with you on this. I strongly believe that setting up an in-situ breeding centre is the ONLY way to save the Javan rhino. The problems you pointed out are management issues that can be solved by effective stewardship. Instead of moving the animals thousands of miles away to a foreign environment, Western zoos (which have the funds) could invest in a good centre in Indonesia and have their own personnel manage it while training the locals to eventually run the show.
But would zoos spend a ton of money on a species they can't display? This is probably the biggest hurdle to overcome.
Another thing I would do is spend the first few years of the programme taking old, 'past it' rhinos into captivity. Sounds daft, but I have the reasons here:
1) We can't be sure about how to keep this species alive, if we are going to get it wrong then it will be worse to get it wrong with an animal that could still be breeding in the wild. Coldly put, it isn't as important if we lose an old animal that wouldn't increase the population in-situ or ex-situ. Practice husbandry with these, get their diet perfert and use them to learn as much as possible. Then, once husbandry is up to standard enough to attempt breeding get some young animals. In my opinion, it is baby steps that are needed as opposed to a leap. Why jump straight into breeding them when we're not even sure how to keep them? One step at a time.
2) Taking old 'useless' animals from the wild means that Ujong Kulon falls below its carrying capacity again, which would hopefully give more room to the younger 'breeding' animals. It is essentially out with the old, in with the new. Taking the old animals out makes room for the new generations.
I hope all that makes sense, but I do believe we need the original imports to be elderly animals so that the risk is lessened.
1) We can't be sure about how to keep this species alive, if we are going to get it wrong then it will be worse to get it wrong with an animal that could still be breeding in the wild. Coldly put, it isn't as important if we lose an old animal that wouldn't increase the population in-situ or ex-situ. Practice husbandry with these, get their diet perfert and use them to learn as much as possible. Then, once husbandry is up to standard enough to attempt breeding get some young animals. In my opinion, it is baby steps that are needed as opposed to a leap. Why jump straight into breeding them when we're not even sure how to keep them? One step at a time.
2) Taking old 'useless' animals from the wild means that Ujong Kulon falls below its carrying capacity again, which would hopefully give more room to the younger 'breeding' animals. It is essentially out with the old, in with the new. Taking the old animals out makes room for the new generations.
I hope all that makes sense, but I do believe we need the original imports to be elderly animals so that the risk is lessened.
animal kid
Well-Known Member
Exporting rhino's outside of Indonesia is definitely a bad idea, the last few northern whites in captivity were moved back to Africa to encourage breeding and even though the javan rhinos are closely related to a species already managed successfully in captivity there is to little understood to risk the deaths of a group large enough to set up a captive population.
Was the rhino present in Ujung Kulon before the eruption and would it be possible to eventually move a small population of animals to a protected reserve in Sumatra as it is part of there historical range?
Was the rhino present in Ujung Kulon before the eruption and would it be possible to eventually move a small population of animals to a protected reserve in Sumatra as it is part of there historical range?
But look at the other side of the Coin. If the Asian One Horned Rhino ever became extinct in the Wild, there are enough successfully breeding in captivity to allow reintroduction using numbers of 'surplus' from the Zoo population. The same is true of Black Rhino too.
I would have thought it was possible to identify by DNA analysis just how closely related the two 'One horned' species really are to each other, as a first step in deciding what the Javan's captive needs might be.
With such a tiny wild population (less than 50?) which could be wiped out by a single catastrophe, I would feel a whole lot happier to know a few were in the hands of a competent Zoo organisation and being perpetuated safely in captivity. But its very unlikely to happen, for many of the reasons outlined above by other Posters.
Perhaps the overriding factor is the shadow of the unmitigated disaster that was the attempt at captive breeding Sumatran rhinos by putting them in Zoos. That could prevent any similar, but smaller scale attempt ever being made with Javan rhinos now, however easy they might(or might not) be to keep in Zoos. But I fear if it doesn't happen, then the 'Vietnam' story could eventually be repeated in Java as well.
Sorry i do apologise as i may be a bit naive to this sort of situation. =)
But if it was deemed that the remaining Rhinos would have to be taken into captivity to attempt to create a breeding programme surely with modern techniques we now have such as IVF treatment ,which is proven to work in other sub-species of Rhino, wouldn't the success rate would be higher than 100 years ago???
But if it was deemed that the remaining Rhinos would have to be taken into captivity to attempt to create a breeding programme surely with modern techniques we now have such as IVF treatment ,which is proven to work in other sub-species of Rhino, wouldn't the success rate would be higher than 100 years ago???