Edinburgh Zoo Sad at some sights in Edin Zoo

[Ginnieb]

This is a common complaint in our Zoos- that staff are often hard to find when one wants to ask questions. Exactly the same issue has just been raised on the Dublin threads and it seems almost universal. Obviously no zoo can afford to have staff hanging around just to answer questions so they are understandably usually fully busy, and so may not be in evidence. But it also means visitors who would like to raise specific questions or concerns often aren't able to, which may work against the Zoo in the long run.

Posting notices about behavioural problems would, in the absence of staff to ask firsthand, help a lot more in allevaiting the problem you mention of people leaving with false or bad impressions of what they have seen at the zoo. It is done sometimes- usually in the case of e.g. an obvious injury or an example of extreme stereotyped/repetitive behaviour but it could be employed more often- though zoos may be understandably reluctant to cover their exhibits with such notices!

Perhaps the Zoos should take note and post the notices if this is a common complaint. It is very obvious when an animal such as the leopard in this case displays behaviour that is upsetting (due to education now people do know more and will do doubt have heard that pacing is generally a sign of stress of some description) and for the many people that do complain there may be many more that think it but don't say, only talk amongst themelves/friends/family re their experiences.

I did think about the fact that notices highlighting problems doesn't sound like a good idea as it may well highlight the problem to those who didn't notice in the first place but then I imagine if they didn't notice, they probably weren't paying attention anyway and therefore would be unlikely to be reading the notices

 

[dublinlion]

I agree that conservation and education are intrinsically linked, but I think if I had the choice of whether to keep zoos or not I would have to say not.



its all about opinions, my opinion is that as domestic cats kill up to 55 million songbirds in the uk every year, the keeping of them as pets should be banned or at least restricted.

Then of course it is still possible to visit many countries to see a particular animal living in the wild (but then I am a Travel Agent who amongst other things arranges specialised Wildlife trips for some of my customers so I know what the possibilities are ) Sorry, not a plug, honestly! Just painting the big picture so you understand where I am coming from

lots of people in the world struggle to put food on the table and cannot afford these "wildlife tours" and so the zoo is the only opportunity they will have to see these wonderful animals.

 

[Ginnieb]

I do understand but to my mind, the look on a kid's face seeing a giraffe for the first time is something that no film can equal (however high quality they are - and to be honest increasingly Attenborough's are the only wildlife programmes worth watching - most of the rest are more travelogues or celebrity vanity projects). Certainly it does more to fire the imagination and the enthusiasm. And of course, only a relatively small percentage can afford to travel widely in search of animals in the wild, however much they'd like to.

It's also worth bearing in mind that many animals in zoos live longer and healthier lives than they would in the wild, and without the same level of predator or climate stress. Of course, this all assumes animals are being kept properly, and it would be foolish to claim there aren't examples of bad practice out there - but a good zoo changes what is wrong, and Edinburgh does this (and even Twycross is finally starting to!).

I did think of that. I then thought of my own little nephew who, upon reaching every animal he wanted to see, just as quickly wanted to move on to the next, and my friends children I went to the zoo with the last time I was there, they seemed to be exactly the same. He is a lovely intelligent polite little boy who loves animals but he just couldn't wait until the next one and very quickly lost interest in each one on arrival.

The only animal my nephew wanted to tell his mum and dad about on our return was the rhino... because he farted in the water !!!

Anyway I know not all kids have the same reaction, I'm only thinking, would they miss zoos if they were'nt there? They neednt go abroad to see animals, they could go into the forests, hills, along rivers, but it is still a sad fact that many children today haven't seen a deer or a pheasant in the wild or a fish jumping in a river or are taken into the country to find them.

I think on the whole Edinburgh does do a good job with the resources they have and is certainly much better than most (and understand Twycross is trying ).

I sometimes just give myself a hard time thinking about the animal I saw pacing when I'm trying to sleep, and far too many others across the world who live in fear or pain. Ahhh, can't save them all, unfortunately. I try and do what little I can when I can.

 

[Yassa]

About the lack of keepers to answer questions, this may have been in part due to the fact that January is low-low season. A lot of zoos schedule keeper talks only in the busier season or on weekends/holidays. A lot of zoos also use volunteers or even employ extra staff for "keeper" talks/ questions-and -answer-seassions in the high season. I don`t know about Edinburgh, though, but you might have had a bit of bad luck due to the time of the year.

 

[Ginnieb]

Don't worry about it Ginnieb - you can forward your questions to me by way of personal messages if you feel you do not want any more childish responses, but please don't give up too soon, there are some really good people on this forum, people who are level-headed and very knowledgable and helpful. Some, unfortunately, cannot handle criticism and facing up to the fact that to some, our zoos (or parts of them) are still not 21st century!

Thank you for this TriGB. I gathered that and drew hope when some supportive messages from yourself and others started coming in!

 

[Ginnieb]

About the lack of keepers to answer questions, this may have been in part due to the fact that January is low-low season. A lot of zoos schedule keeper talks only in the busier season or on weekends/holidays. A lot of zoos also use volunteers or even employ extra staff for "keeper" talks/ questions-and -answer-seassions in the high season. I don`t know about Edinburgh, though, but you might have had a bit of bad luck due to the time of the year.

A good point Yassa, although it is 'Panda-monium' at the zoo at the minute or so they say so I would have thought they may have more keepers to cover this busy period

 

[Johnny Morris.]

I agree that conservation and education are intrinsically linked, but I think if I had the choice of whether to keep zoos or not I would have to say not. It's a tough one because I do love going to see animals that I wouldn't ordinarily get to see but I have to ask myself does my selfish desire override the preference to see these animals in their rightful place and living a free life? And my answer is no. Of course some of these animals are resuced and born in captivity from other places as some people righly point out but in an ideal world (for me) I would probably opt to end zoos.

I believe wonderful television from the likes of David Attenborough, books and the internet can provide us with views of these exotic animals and can be just as educational, the need to see them 'live' but in cages is I don't believe a neccesity when they can still be seen in the wild. That is why I believe having zoos for conservation purposes only overrides my preference to having them exist for educational purposes. Then of course it is still possible to visit many countries to see a particular animal living in the wild (but then I am a Travel Agent who amongst other things arranges specialised Wildlife trips for some of my customers so I know what the possibilities are ) Sorry, not a plug, honestly! Just painting the big picture so you understand where I am coming from

Doesn't the "wonderful television from the likes of David Attenborough" contain footage obtained my using animals in Zoos?

Wether you like it or not, non endangered animals in zoos play their part in the conservation of the endangered aniimals in zoos. By bringing in more visitors. Take Bristol for example and the work they are doing with endangered snails, I bet there aren't many people who would go to the zoo to see these, But the Meerkats and Fur Seals always have crowds viewing them.

 

[Lesley4444]

You could always email Edinburgh Zoo.. I have found them honestly responding whenever i have had to do this.. Also everyday there are set times for talks for each animal...whenever i have attended these the educational officer or the keepers have been more than willing to answer my questions.

 

[Ginnieb]

lots of people in the world struggle to put food on the table and cannot afford these "wildlife tours" and so the zoo is the only opportunity they will have to see these wonderful animals.

Hi Dublinlion

That one of the reasons I ten to have a cat that don't go out (mine is a Chinchilla Persian and they are house cats) although I do let him go little walks when it's sunny but I am with him at all times and he doesn't go far.

I don't know if you are aware of this but the worlds biggest killer of wild birds is house/buildings glass and mirrored windows. I looked into this before when the new house I moved into with lots of windows kept having bird strikes and I tried to prevent this happeneing (successfully now I mad add).

A lot of people put the decline of wild birds down to pesticides and cats but there are many many reasons that we are losing our wild birds. This site is very interesting as is another called FLAP (fatal light awareness programme).
Causes of Bird Mortality Sibley Guides
There are companies that sell glass and windows with special UV lines and grids that prevent birds flying into them now. But you are right, it is terrible the number of birds that die to cats and all owners should try at the very least to have quality bells on their collars to try and give birds some warning.

You are also right about people not being able to afford to see these wonderful animals but as I said, TV documentaries, books and Internet and of course schools go a long way to doing that and in any country local wildlife is accessible to everyone, they just have to go and look. I just felt would they actually 'miss' a zoo if it wasn't there?

 

[Ginnieb]

Doesn't the "wonderful television from the likes of David Attenborough" contain footage obtained my using animals in Zoos?

Yes, you are right, that was a shock when I heard about the Polar bear scenes being shot in a zoo! I was disappointed to be honest too.

Wether you like it or not, non endangered animals in zoos play their part in the conservation of the endangered aniimals in zoos. By bringing in more visitors. Take Bristol for example and the work they are doing with endangered snails, I bet there aren't many people who would go to the zoo to see these, But the Meerkats and Fur Seals always have crowds viewing them.

It's a huge debate that could go on for ever. There are good and bad points all round. I think it's great that important conservation work is going on and where I see something that I have an interest in and feel is important I donate a little here and there to try and do what little I am able.

There are some animals that can happily live in captivity and zoos without it being detrimental to their lives and daily living. There are others I feel can't and shouldn't, not for our entertainment, education, for money raising, exploitation.

If what someone further back in the thread said is right that the Edinburgh enclosures for the Panda's are indeed better than they came from in China, then is it fair that they are being sent back to China in 10 years time when they have got used to better/larger enclosures here? I can't help but feel these panda's are being used for political and monetary reasons.

Again on the other hand the work they are doing in China to preserve the Panda is to be commended and without the public money they no doubt couldn't do that.

You see? A very difficult and emotive debate full of twists and turns.

 

[Ginnieb]

You could always email Edinburgh Zoo.. I have found them honestly responding whenever i have had to do this.. Also everyday there are set times for talks for each animal...whenever i have attended these the educational officer or the keepers have been more than willing to answer my questions.

I'm planning to as I'd love to hear their views of the animals I mentioned in my initial post.

 

[Maguari]

Yes, you are right, that was a shock when I heard about the Polar bear scenes being shot in a zoo! I was disappointed to be honest too.
.

To be honest, I was amazed anyone was surprised. It's difficult to see how it could have safely been achieved with wild bears - I wouldn't like to be the one to try to get a camera into a polar bear's cubbing den!

This is a standard method for wildife documentaries where close-ups would be difficult to get or to get access within animals' dens or nests (the queen's chamber in an ants' nest for example).

 

[Ginnieb]

I just had a lightbulb moment which maybe would or wouldn't work! But I was thinking, I must get off and do some work! I went in to check my other emails and lo and behold there is an email sitting there that I have attached here if anyone is interested.

It is about a croc who a woman visitor interpreting a certain eye movement as a sign (!) went on to re-home in suitable surroundings as it was being looked after but because of a lack of resources didn't have ideal living conditions.

Nile Crocodile Signals Rescuer, "I'm Still Alive!" | Care2 Causes

Now the lightbulb moment! Wouldn't it be great if all animals that were needed for zoos were rescue animals that couldn't be re-homed in the wild and there was a main database where across the world ill funded centres like this could offer animals up for a) better lives elsewhere b) such a plan would really inspire the public re the value of zoos and encourage more support and contribution using this symbiotic relationship for the benefit of all (animals included)?

 

[Maguari]

You are also right about people not being able to afford to see these wonderful animals but as I said, TV documentaries, books and Internet and of course schools go a long way to doing that and in any country local wildlife is accessible to everyone,

Depends how much of it has been wiped out over the years!

Unfortunately, unless you live in certain parts of Scotland and a few very specific other areas, British wildlife is, to an awful lot of people, pretty dull. Much I as would love everyone to appreciate it more, ten minutes of zoo panda- or meerkat-watching will interest many more people than two hours in a hide trying to spot a bittern. Most of the really spectactular wildlife we have is either hard to spot or hard to access, unfortunately.

Unless you are already highly interested (and indeed even if you are!) you'd do well to see more than a handful of wild mammal species in a year in most areas of England - and several of the more obvious ones are introduced anyway (rabbits, grey squirrels, muntjac etc).

 

[Ginnieb]

To be honest, I was amazed anyone was surprised. It's difficult to see how it could have safely been achieved with wild bears - I wouldn't like to be the one to try to get a camera into a polar bear's cubbing den!

This is a standard method for wildife documentaries where close-ups would be difficult to get or to get access within animals' dens or nests (the queen's chamber in an ants' nest for example).

Ah well, what you don't know eh?! I always just assumed he was in there right amongst them danger or not! When they do their little extra bit at the end showing how they did other difficult filming I just assumed they always got their shot.. in the wild!

 

[Yassa]

If what someone further back in the thread said is right that the Edinburgh enclosures for the Panda's are indeed better than they came from in China, then is it fair that they are being sent back to China in 10 years time when they have got used to better/larger enclosures here? I can't help but feel these panda's are being used for political and monetary reasons.

Again on the other hand the work they are doing in China to preserve the Panda is to be commended and without the public money they no doubt couldn't do that.

That the contract goes only 10 years doesn`t mean the pandas will go back to China after these 10 years. It`s totally possible that the contract will be extended, or that one of them has died in the meantime (they`re both fully adult - 8 years). But I totally share your concerns that the pandas are used more for policital and commercial reasons then for research and conservation. I am not a fan of those panda deals where zoos pay millions of dollars just to rent a pair of pandas. It`s not possible to set up a proper breeding program when all offspring have to go back to China, keeping pandas in pairs is not good for breeding since they are so picky when selecting a partner, and I fear that zoos are damaing themselves financially. There is a study about pandas in US zoos and the result was that the pandas cost a lot more then they brought in after the first year. Right now edinburgh recieves a lot of attention and certainly sells a lot more tickets then they would without the pandas, but will that be the case in 3 years onwards?!
On the positive side, China earns a lot of money with their panda deals, and they are breeding them so sucessfully that it doesn`t damage their captive populations when they send some abroad. I just hope that all the money really goes into panda conversation there and doesn`t end up in some politican`s bank account....

 

[Ginnieb]

Depends how much of it has been wiped out over the years!

Unfortunately, unless you live in certain parts of Scotland and a few very specific other areas, British wildlife is, to an awful lot of people, pretty dull. Much I as would love everyone to appreciate it more, ten minutes of zoo panda- or meerkat-watching will interest many more people than two hours in a hide trying to spot a bittern. Most of the really spectactular wildlife we have is either hard to spot or hard to access, unfortunately.

Unless you are already highly interested (and indeed even if you are!) you'd do well to see more than a handful of wild mammal species in a year in most areas of England - and several of the more obvious ones are introduced anyway (rabbits, grey squirrels, muntjac etc).

True. Unfortunately our wildlife isn't all indigenous but again if more families took kids out to their local wildlife spots (or within a couple of hours drive of everywhere in the UK there is a wildlife spot) they will likely see things without having to sit in a hide.

I was in london for the past few days and went walking in a little park next to Buckingham Palace in the heart of London. There were lots of geese, coots and some ducks I had hadn't seen before that fascinated me. I bought some bird pellets and tried to feed a particular goose that had only one leg and was struggling to turn around when the pellets fell behind him. To my surprise and delight a big goose behind me was impatient and a number of times got hold of my jeans and gently shook them back and forwards as if to say 'hey what about me'!! I gave him some and then ignored him whilst I tried to feed the one legged goose. Again he did it and then even more impatiently started tapping on my foot! It wasn't at all done in an aggressive way, more in a 'take note of me' way. I loved the interaction and some kids nearby with their parents were all laughing! It is possible, anywhere, or within reasonable distance. The seaside with rock pools too is all around us and accessible to all.

 

[Maguari]

I was in london for the past few days and went walking in a little park next to Buckingham Palace in the heart of London. There were lots of geese, coots and some ducks I had hadn't seen before that fascinated me. I bought some bird pellets and tried to feed a particular goose that had only one leg and was struggling to turn around when the pellets fell behind him. To my surprise and delight a big goose behind me was impatient and a number of times got hold of my jeans and gently shook them back and forwards as if to say 'hey what about me'!! I gave him some and then ignored him whilst I tried to feed the one legged goose. Again he did it and then even more impatiently started tapping on my foot! It wasn't at all done in an aggressive way, more in a 'take note of me' way. I loved the interaction and some kids nearby with their parents were all laughing! It is possible, anywhere, or within reasonable distance. The seaside with rock pools too is all around us and accessible to all.

I think the park in question would be St. James's Park - which has a famous collection of (non-native) waterfowl and also a group of Great White Pelicans. I was there myself in November. There really were hordes of coots - never seen anything like it. But most of the rest of the waterfowl is managed and effectively captive (as is a similar collection on the lake in Regent's Park).

 

[Ginnieb]

That the contract goes only 10 years doesn`t mean the pandas will go back to China after these 10 years. It`s totally possible that the contract will be extended, or that one of them has died in the meantime (they`re both fully adult - 8 years). But I totally share your concerns that the pandas are used more for policital and commercial reasons then for research and conservation. I am not a fan of those panda deals where zoos pay millions of dollars just to rent a pair of pandas. It`s not possible to set up a proper breeding program when all offspring have to go back to China, keeping pandas in pairs is not good for breeding since they are so picky when selecting a partner, and I fear that zoos are damaing themselves financially. There is a study about pandas in US zoos and the result was that the pandas cost a lot more then they brought in after the first year. Right now edinburgh recieves a lot of attention and certainly sells a lot more tickets then they would without the pandas, but will that be the case in 3 years onwards?!
On the positive side, China earns a lot of money with their panda deals, and they are breeding them so sucessfully that it doesn`t damage their captive populations when they send some abroad. I just hope that all the money really goes into panda conversation there and doesn`t end up in some politican`s bank account....

I feel the same Yassa, these are all legitimate comments. The Chinese Government do like to highlight their work for the Pandas and I am pretty sure a chunk of funds raised go straight into the grovernment coffers without a doubt.

However what isn't highlighted so well is the plight of the other famous Chinese bear, the moonbears who are caged in horrendous conditions by a large number of Chinese for the use of their bile for medicines.
An amazing woman Jill Robinson is doing an amazing amount of work to rescue and raise awareness of their plight and the Governments are taking notice and working with her and have put in various plans for regulation and control through her tireless work.
ANIMALS ASIA
Her sanctuary is also in Chengdu, close to the Panda sanctuary.

I often think it's a bit ironic that the Panda has such a following due to clever marketing, cuteability and of course having been the logo for WWF (and although much higher up the endangered list) find it's cousins, the moonbears (ok, for those who may wish to correct me they may not be direct cousins ) are suffering terribly at the hands of a country with abysmal animal (and human) rights records. However at least the Panda is lucky and does have a future because of it's popularity so it's not all bad.

That is where the debate becomes one at crossed purposes, on one hand it's not great (in my opinion) to have zoos but then some wildlife could be worse off without them.

 

[Ginnieb]

I think the park in question would be St. James's Park - which has a famous collection of (non-native) waterfowl and also a group of Great White Pelicans. I was there myself in November. There really were hordes of coots - never seen anything like it. But most of the rest of the waterfowl is managed and effectively captive (as is a similar collection on the lake in Regent's Park).

I think it was St James's Park.There were only one or two coots when I was there so I reckon the rest have flown off somewhere and therefore have the freedom to do so. They do have an enormous open park area there and no fence so I feel are without a doubt better off than zoo kept waterfowl and can fly anywhere they want to. I'm sure they choose to stay if they are being fed though as you imply! Just like my chooks

But I've no concerns with waterfowl kept in the zoo unless they are in a tight space unsuitable to their needs.