ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

I'm sure that £5-6 million would have been better spent helping many more animals than 3 tigers.

Reading this made me read through some old posts again as I was unsure where you were getting this figure from.

Covering the enclosure has almost doubled its price, but they decided to do it for three main reasons, it's an urban zoo, it's close to the outer boarder of the zoo and to stop people getting in to it.

A year ago, the ZSL campaigned to raise £3 million for a new tiger enclosure.
Now, ZSL is raising an even larger amount in a time of austerity, when people are losing their jobs and homes and public services are being cut. I agree with raising money to protect forests in Sumatra, but why is so much money being spent because a potential visitor may want to save tigers after seeing a live one in a zoo?

Can I just say if you are getting this figure from my quote they weren’t saying it was going to cost £3 million but now is going to cost £6 million they were just demonstrating how much as a percentage covering the enclosure was costing of the £3.3 million.

I just thought I would clear that up just in case.
 
Thanks Stulch. I must admit that I attended the presentation a year ago and the figure was £3 million. I didn't attend the recent presentation, but I trusted your figures that covering the enclosure had nearly doubled the price. That is why I gave a conservative estimate of £5-6 million. Originally, the cost was estimated to be £5-10 million. I got this from a list of future projects a few years ago. I'll try and find out what the current projected costs are.

Thanks again
 
I'm sure that £5-6 million would have been better spent helping many more animals than 3 tigers.

That is indeed a perceived problem with these recent large developments at London(Tigers and Gorillas)-large exhibits costing a disproportianate amount to the number of animals they contain. If the visitor numbers rise correspondingly then presumbly they will see it as money well spent, but will they? Has Gorilla Kingdom made any difference to their visitor numbers, I doubt it rather?
 
Has Gorilla Kingdom made any difference to their visitor numbers, I doubt it rather?

Perhaps not directly but if there were never any new developments I'm sure the zoo would be seen as stagnating and less than impressive in the view of most visitors which would have a negative effect in the long term.
 
Back to Earth guys!

Visitor numbers at London vastly surpass those at ZSL/Whipsnade WAP.
The answer is as fast as it is simple. :cool:
 
That is indeed a perceived problem with these recent large developments at London(Tigers and Gorillas)-large exhibits costing a disproportianate amount to the number of animals they contain. If the visitor numbers rise correspondingly then presumbly they will see it as money well spent, but will they? Has Gorilla Kingdom made any difference to their visitor numbers, I doubt it rather?

From the year Gorilla Kingdom opened:-

Tuesday 23 October 2007

For the first time in 8 years, ZSL London Zoo welcomed its millionth visitor on 23rd October

Congratulations to our millionth visitor - News - ZSL London Zoo - ZSL
 
From the members and supporters magazine Wildabout:-

With a raft of new species arriving in the coming weeks and months, ZSL London Zoo's venomous snake collection is set to become the biggest in Europe.

In a section at the end under Six of the best: The new arrivals - and why they're important to the collection it lists:-

Inland taipan, Bushmaster, Mang Shan pitviper, McGregor's viper, European adder and Rhinoceros viper.

When I was there briefly yesterday they had just about finished a couple of new enclosures, whether they were for these or others to move into to make way for them I don't know but they looked good.

I've quoted this comment from the 2011 thread. I think the magazine mentioned that you could see these in the reptile house, but on my visit this afternoon only the rhinoceros viper was on display. Does anyone know if/when the others will be put on show?
 
I've quoted this comment from the 2011 thread. I think the magazine mentioned that you could see these in the reptile house, but on my visit this afternoon only the rhinoceros viper was on display. Does anyone know if/when the others will be put on show?

Each time I've been to the reptile house since reading in the magazine I've been looking out for them but like you I've only seen the Rhinoceros viper (which appeared towards the end of November).

However, there are about five or so enclosures being refurbished (some for a few months) so I imagine when they are done they will house them.
 
Visitor numbers at London vastly surpass those at ZSL/Whipsnade WAP.
The answer is as fast as it is simple. :cool:

Nobody has ever disputed that- what I was asking was whether the new
Gorilla Kingdom ('flash new pad' in their advertising terminology) made any difference to London Zoo's Gate after it was built.
 
Perhaps not directly but if there were never any new developments I'm sure the zoo would be seen as stagnating and less than impressive in the view of most visitors which would have a negative effect in the long term.

I agree with you too- I have sympathies rather with both sides of this discussion- the critisism of the huge outlay in cost for big new enclosures for just a few animals, versus the need for occassional big new builds in order to attract more visitors and create fresh publicity.
 
Back to Earth guys!

Visitor numbers at London vastly surpass those at ZSL/Whipsnade WAP.
The answer is as fast as it is simple. :cool:

I doubt very much if the directors of London Zoo ever expected similar visitor numbers at Whipsnade to what they got at Regents Park when they originally opened it, I would also think that had it not been for a safari park opening just down the road some years later the visitor numbers at Whipsnade would be a lot higher than what they are today, it's ironic that the owners of this estate who opened the safari park were most supportive to Whipsnade when it originally opened, later to find themselves running an animal park at Woburn, and therefore in competition with Whipsnade.
 
I agree with you too- I have sympathies rather with both sides of this discussion- the critisism of the huge outlay in cost for big new enclosures for just a few animals, versus the need for occassional big new builds in order to attract more visitors and create fresh publicity.

I do not have the figures at hand to what visitor numbers were at Regents Park pre Gorilla Kingdom and what they were when it opened or what they are now, could Dassie Rat please furnish us with the exact figures?I do understand that the visitor number has been around one million for the past few years, considering the current economic climate in this country since the opening of Gorilla Kingdom and indeed Penguin Beach four years later I think the zoo have done well to maintain this figure, had it not been for the positive publicity the zoo attracted on the opening of these exhibits would attendance figures not have dropped, with all the doom and gloom in this country at present is it not a good thing when you can see on the news or read in the paper something pleasant like this?, of coarse Gorilla Kingdom did not come cheap, not by a long chalk, neither will the new tiger exhibit but the money spent on these has not exclusively come out of the gate money, a large percentage was given to the zoo in donations from people who support the work being done at London Zoo.
 
I agree with you too- I have sympathies rather with both sides of this discussion- the criticism of the huge outlay in cost for big new enclosures for just a few animals, versus the need for occasional big new builds in order to attract more visitors and create fresh publicity.

Breaking a previous resolution, can I just ask a simple question . Do people make a visit to a zoo that they hadn't otherwise planned, a) to see new animals or b) to see new exhibits?

And to nail my own colours to the mast: an expensive exhibit at London that saw the return of orang-utans (last on site 1991) , Giant Pandas (last on site 1994), Caribbean Manatees (last on site 1960) or (in an alternative universe) Sumatran Rhinos (last on site 1910) would be another matter as far as I'm concerned.
 
I do not have the figures at hand to what visitor numbers were at Regents Park pre Gorilla Kingdom and what they were when it opened or what they are now, could Dassie Rat please furnish us with the exact figures?I do understand that the visitor number has been around one million for the past few years, considering the current economic climate in this country since the opening of Gorilla Kingdom and indeed Penguin Beach four years later I think the zoo have done well to maintain this figure, had it not been for the positive publicity the zoo attracted on the opening of these exhibits would attendance figures not have dropped, with all the doom and gloom in this country at present is it not a good thing when you can see on the news or read in the paper something pleasant like this?, of coarse Gorilla Kingdom did not come cheap, not by a long chalk, neither will the new tiger exhibit but the money spent on these has not exclusively come out of the gate money, a large percentage was given to the zoo in donations from people who support the work being done at London Zoo.

Tarzan, believe me I take no joy in pointing this out, but visitor numbers at London have flatlined at around a million a year. The Zoo still does not attract the numbers it did in 1990, the last year before the closure crisis. The steady growth in visitor numbers, seen in the boom years of the later 1990s and the early 2000s at Bristol, Chester or Colchester, simply didn't happen at London.

One is not being negative to suggest that the Emperor's new clothes appear a bit translucent.
 
No investment equals closure. A 10 year old building is modern, a 20 year old one is just going around the corner, a 30 year old building is not done and outdated. Sound financial management and good investment is what is called for.

I agree with your philosophy ..., but alas the punters want to see rhinos, elephants and the like ... and those have left the premises. Orangs were done away with simply because of their - perhaps undeservedly - lesser appeal and because there simply was no dosh to pay for sound animal management.

Closure was probably something the past government seemed to wish for given that they stopped any subsidy to the UK's premier zoo ..., yet it still remains an authorative institute in in situ and ex situ conservation.
 
No investment equals closure. A 10 year old building is modern, a 20 year old one is just going around the corner, a 30 year old building is not done and outdated. Sound financial management and good investment is what is called for.

Hallo Kifaru. I agree that some zoo buildings are past their sell-by date. For example the Casson Pavillion created lots of problems for elephants and their keepers. Even some modern buildings have problems. For example, on a visit to Prague Zoo in 2009, I visited the recently-built South-east Asia building. One of the exhibits was very small and almost on the floor. I had great difficulties bending down to see and I expect that many elderly people would be unable to do so. Generally speaking, I think Prague Zoo is one of the best zoos I've visited, but this exhibit was a mistake. Unfortunately, many zoo buildings gain listed status, regardless of whether they benefit the animals, so zoos have to retain buildings that are much more than 30 years old. Dudley Zoo has had lots of problems with listed buildings. That is why I would prefer new exhbits to be pre-fabricated, where possible, so that enclosures can be divided or enlarged without needing planning permission.

I agree with your philosophy ..., but alas the punters want to see rhinos, elephants and the like ... and those have left the premises. Orangs were done away with simply because of their - perhaps undeservedly - lesser appeal and because there simply was no dosh to pay for sound animal management.

I agree that many punters want to see the ABC animals, perhaps because these are the animals they know most about. Animal books and TV programmes have incorporated more species over the years. For example, Nick Baker's 'Weird Creatures' has included hellbenders, tarsiers and pink fairy armadillos, while there was a programme about lorises a week ago. There's nothing wrong with trying to interest visitors in animals that they've never heard of before, rather than animals they expect to see in every zoo they visit. It's a case of having a balance and encouraging visitors to visit other zoos if they want to see certain species, rather than having zoos like high street chain stores, where you visit one branch in a town and it has the same merchandise as the branch several hours away.

When the zoo was threatened with closure, 20 years ago, the management decided to cut the number of species by about 33%. There were 3 species of great ape at the time (this was before orang-utans were split into 2 species), so one species would leave the zoo. As gorillas had bred well in the previous decade, the zoo decided to keep gorillas. Originally, it tried to disperse its chimps, but no zoos would take the group, so the orangs moved instead. I don't think this was anything to do with any lesser appeal of orangs - at least, the volunteers weren't told anything about this.

Closure was probably something the past government seemed to wish for given that they stopped any subsidy to the UK's premier zoo ..., yet it still remains an authorative institute in in situ and ex situ conservation.

I think you may be right. I've never really understood the justification for taxpayers subsidising tickets and building works at the Royal Opera House, when the Colisseum is a few minutes' walk away. One of the previous comments implies that MPs are more likely to visit the opera than the zoo, so there is a vested interest there. When the zoo was threatened with closure, several zoos around the world questioned why London Zoo didn't receive taxpayers' money and I agree with Kifaru that this was probably a political decision. Without going too much into politics, I notice that while the coalition government says there is no money for some things, there is always money for others. The extra £40 million for the opening display at the Olympics is a case in point - trying to pretend that the UK has money to waste, while some of us are in the middle of a 4 year pay freeze.

Perhaps ZSL should be asking for help with its conservation work around the world, rather than for expensive exhibits, especially if, as you say, they will be replaced in a few years time.
 
Originally, it ried to disperse its chimps, but no zoos would take the group, so the orangs moved instead. I don't think this was anything to do with any lesser appeal of orangs - at least, the volunteers weren't told anything about this.

Another reason for the Orangutans' departure put forward at the time was that they were 'labour intensive' in so much they weren't kept as a single group like the other Apes, plus extra housing was needed and they had overflowed into the Lubekin house.
 
Hallo Pertinax. You may be right. I can only recall the information I received at the time - that is that London Zoo moved the orangs after failing to find a home for the chimp group. I can't tell if there may two stories at the time - this may also be true. The fact that a member of council told the volunteers that the zoo was safe the evening before stating that the zoo would have to close indicates that there was at least some double-speak at the time, so there may be two stories about the orangs and chimps.
 
so there may be two stories about the orangs and chimps.

Its quite likely-I didn't know they had first planned to get rid of the Chimpanzees and couldn't place them. Quite possibly the 'labour intensive' reason for moving the Orangutans was put forward additionally as a public reason rather than them saying- 'we couldn't rehouse the chimps so the Orangutans are going instead'.

Personally I thought the Orangs were least suited of the three Ape species, to the 'uniform' design of the Sobell enclosures- despite the attempt to give them some extra height etc, they still look bored and listless a lot of the time- its just the way they tend to be, particularly the Bornean species(which all of London's were.) They are one of the hardest species to house effectively and at the same time attractively. Despite they bred very freely,(they will almost anywhere given fertile compatable animals) I think they were the right species to go from London.
 
That is why I would prefer new exhbits to be pre-fabricated, where possible, so that enclosures can be divided or enlarged without needing planning permission.

Just as an aside - London Zoo before Lubetkin, ie for the first century of its existence, was dominated by extremely unpretentious buildings. Other than the Mappin Terraces, I suspect that only the Lion, Giraffe, and Elephant Houses would have made much impression on the visitor, maybe together with the Bird of Prey Aviaries.
 
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