I think there can be a happy medium between utilitarian approaches and more elaborate set ups and I think a lot has changed in the approximately 20 years since that was written with different visitor expectations.
ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012
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I think there can be a happy medium between utilitarian approaches and more elaborate set ups and I think a lot has changed in the approximately 20 years since that was written with different visitor expectations.
Interesting that new Invertebrate House and Gorilla enclosure did eventually materialise, but not on the sites originally proposed.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
...not for the (8 or 9?) years or so, the orangs were housed in a fairly small arched-roof cage at the end of the old Small Mammal House. It was fairly heavy-duty, I've often wondered what was housed here before the orangs arrived. I don't know how many of the original London animals made it onto the island when the Ape Centre was built.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
I never saw the orangs in that exhibit at Paignton, but I saw the Mandrills that replaced them there. It looked dreadful.
Whatever else might be said about the orangs' departure from London, as johnstoni makes clear, they didn't go off to better accommodation.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
More orangs made it to the ape house than arrived from London! Bulu gave birth to Gambira in the Small Mammal House, thanks to her son Nakal. Also with them were Senja and her daughter Chinta. Paignton used to keep chimps and I have an image in my mind, from many years ago, of visitors teasing one in a cage that could well have been the this one.
Incidentally, I've just uploaded a photo of what's left of the cage now:
http://www.zoochat.com/62/small-mammal-house-15-february-2012-a-258293/
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Gigit
Well-Known Member
I've just looked through my records - the orangutans were in the Small Mammal house from 1992 - 1997.
I was aware they spent several years on arrival at Paignton in that cage- somewhere I have a photo of them in there- and yes, it was very poor, but I'm pretty sure they took them on the basis the new enclosure was going to be built. The point I was making was that when they did eventually move into the new Ape House, they couldn't properly take advantage of it.
AFAIR Paignton took five animals from London- Bulu, Twiggy(?) Senja, Chinta and Bulu's young son Nakal. All but Twiggy(if it was her) transferred into the new house + Bulu's incestuous baby Gambira. Senja by then was just a lump of fat and could hardly move off the floor.
I think Gigit is correct that the cage housed Chimps previously.
As I said above, I think Paignton took them on the basis they had the funding to build the Mary Le Fevre Ape House so the poor cage housing (worse than what they came from) would only be temporary, though it was actually a five year stint they spent in it.
I cannot rememer how many Orangutans London still had when they dispersed them- Paignton took five, and Anak went to(or was already at) Chester, but there may have been a couple of others too.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
I don't remember another orangutan (Twiggy) but I was only an occasional visitor at that time. If she did come here, I wonder what happened to her? My earliest annual report gives the status for orangs on 1/1/94 as 1.3.
Senja was indeed obese . She was rarely in the show den (I think she and Bulu didn't get on) but I did see her outside sometimes, making very slow progress around the island.
Twiggy was another fatty,(hence the ironic name pun) She was pretty much Bulu's constant companion for many years after the large group of youngsters were imported to London- she made up the oldest trio with Bulu and a male 'Boy'. She also spent time at Twycross later on- but I think she ended up in the group that went to Paignton and died there soon after-but I could be wrong on that. I only saw them once in that cage but believe Twiggy was in the group then.
I hadn't realised Gambira was born in that cage though.
Tell me, am I imagining it or was the inside for the Orangutans in that cage two little specially-made raised cages on concrete bases, not the ordinary barred wooden floored cage, but there was no sign of these afterwards when the Mandrills were in there.
London zoo and this thread is so strange, that I must put my 3 cents worth. It seems like floating in a bubble ignoring world's best zoos or even better English zoos which puny, backwards London zoo should aspire to.
In contrast to Dassie rat, I think new gorilla and tiger exhibits are dead standard to slightly outdated, and the danger is not going fast enough.
Gorilla island - it is 1980's style gorilla exhibit with infertile male. Compare to realistic replicas of rainforest and direct link to conservation at Bronx, or direct primatology research at Leipzig, or public presentation with large tv screens at Apeldoorn. Simply – London is backwards.
Penguin exhibit – cannot match variety of species at Edinburgh, walk-through and size of underwater viewing at Emmen, or arctic cooled exhibits at many zoos.
Plannet tiger exibit – again, dead standard to outdated. Compare with public training/shows/presentations in many zoos, or camera traps and direct link to conservation at Bronx.
London zoo attendance is simply puny compared to city size and tourist potential. Zoo appears unable to entice sponsors, despite lots of money flowing in Europe's financial capital. Perhaps because it is so unattractive.
And no plans to enlarge the zoo, although it is surrounded by empty grass lawns with little green value or public use. Probably many more people pay and go on zoo grounds than use these empty grass lawns immediately around the zoo.
And London zoo is fixated on small, unattractive animals and small, unattractive exhibits. Most zoos understand they need most ABC animals to encourage people to see less popular ones. Not London. Again contrast with Leipzig zoo. Leipzig has about 15 times less citizens than City, but the zoo made a number of top quality exhibits and has about 2 times larger attendance than London zoo. So twice as many people actually see and are educated about less common animals at Leipzig than in London, which makes it a priority.
Even with new exhibits, London zoo is still trailing 30 years behind the world. With more demanding public, I think it is a path to being closed. Thanks god there are more progressive zoos in England which can take over.
In contrast to Dassie rat, I think new gorilla and tiger exhibits are dead standard to slightly outdated, and the danger is not going fast enough.
Gorilla island - it is 1980's style gorilla exhibit with infertile male. Compare to realistic replicas of rainforest and direct link to conservation at Bronx, or direct primatology research at Leipzig, or public presentation with large tv screens at Apeldoorn. Simply – London is backwards.
Penguin exhibit – cannot match variety of species at Edinburgh, walk-through and size of underwater viewing at Emmen, or arctic cooled exhibits at many zoos.
Plannet tiger exibit – again, dead standard to outdated. Compare with public training/shows/presentations in many zoos, or camera traps and direct link to conservation at Bronx.
London zoo attendance is simply puny compared to city size and tourist potential. Zoo appears unable to entice sponsors, despite lots of money flowing in Europe's financial capital. Perhaps because it is so unattractive.
And no plans to enlarge the zoo, although it is surrounded by empty grass lawns with little green value or public use. Probably many more people pay and go on zoo grounds than use these empty grass lawns immediately around the zoo.
And London zoo is fixated on small, unattractive animals and small, unattractive exhibits. Most zoos understand they need most ABC animals to encourage people to see less popular ones. Not London. Again contrast with Leipzig zoo. Leipzig has about 15 times less citizens than City, but the zoo made a number of top quality exhibits and has about 2 times larger attendance than London zoo. So twice as many people actually see and are educated about less common animals at Leipzig than in London, which makes it a priority.
Even with new exhibits, London zoo is still trailing 30 years behind the world. With more demanding public, I think it is a path to being closed. Thanks god there are more progressive zoos in England which can take over.
I have to disagree. As penguin exhibits go it one of the best I have seen and I work with aquatic animals and have seen exhibit in both Europe and the USA. I actually have never seen the "schooling" behaviour you see at the feeding time at ZSL - and as I say, I have seen over the last 40 years in the zoo business a lot of penguins.
As to comment of the zoo expanding. Well those "empty grass lawns with little green value or public use" are a Royal Park and the chances of expanding and building on this is zero. I suspect that you are not English and actually don't understand this situation and the status of these areas.
As to attendance figures you don't give any references to places such as Leipzig but at the last AGM at London Zoo it was noted that even in these hard times the zoo attendance continues to rise. The chances of the zoo closing even in this current climate are very, very unlikely.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
Orangutans
I've done some research and Twiggy died at Paignton on 23 February 1993, less than a year after arriving. I have a press cutting about Senja's death in 2000 that says she moved to Paignton with three other orangutans, so Twiggy must have been forgotten by then.
I remember queuing up to see Bulu with newborn Gambira indoors. She was sitting on a 'shelf' with her. I'm not sure now exactly how it looked but may have a photo somewhere so will get back to you on that.
Twiggy ..... also spent time at Twycross later on- but I think she ended up in the group that went to Paignton and died there soon after-but I could be wrong on that. I only saw them once in that cage but believe Twiggy was in the group then.
I hadn't realised Gambira was born in that cage though.
Tell me, am I imagining it or was the inside for the Orangutans in that cage two little specially-made raised cages on concrete bases, not the ordinary barred wooden floored cage, but there was no sign of these afterwards when the Mandrills were in there.
I've done some research and Twiggy died at Paignton on 23 February 1993, less than a year after arriving. I have a press cutting about Senja's death in 2000 that says she moved to Paignton with three other orangutans, so Twiggy must have been forgotten by then.
I remember queuing up to see Bulu with newborn Gambira indoors. She was sitting on a 'shelf' with her. I'm not sure now exactly how it looked but may have a photo somewhere so will get back to you on that.
I knew Twiggy had gone there too.
I guess she was forgotten about or they left out that detail when Senja's death was reported.
The indoor cages I mentioned above, I have a mental image of, but not sure if my memory is playing tricks as they weren't there afterwards.
Parts of Regents Park, including some of the areas closest to the Zoo, are given over to playing fields used by local schools and Sports groups, so it is very much an active 'working' park, not just all empty green lawns. Many Dog walkers and joggers are users of the connecting paths too. Its one of London's valuable open spaces.
I agree with John Dineley that the Penguin exhibit is excellent. There may be others which are superior but its certainly in the top league.
I agree with you that the gorilla exhibit is far from outstanding but I also don't have the problems with it others seem to. I particularly don't have a problem with the infertile male-they didn't know he was infertile when they got him, the enclosure certainly had nothing to do with him being infertile and he does still have a right to live in a decent enclosure within a group, so I don't have any issues with London keeping that group stable for a while given all the upheaval the whole group has gone through in recent years. So it will be a while longer before London has baby gorillas-is that really the end of the world if the group is happy for now? I would agree with previous posts that they should have known from experience the gorillas would spend a lot of time indoors and should have maximised the indoor space, but its not a terrible enclosure.
Penguin beach I like. I have worked with penguins and this enclosure seems to fit the requirements of the species they have. As for not meeting the diversity of species at Edinburgh, they only have 3 species, its not all that different and the macaroni penguins at London are currently only kept by one other zoo in the UK so they are fairly special. Arctic cooled exhibits are not needed for all penguin species and it would be very boring if all zoos kept the same species in exactly the same way, not to mention it would likely have cost a lot more too.
The planned tiger exhibit I can't say too much about as I haven't paid as close attention to the plans as others on here have given I am living pretty far from London at the moment. I would like to know if we know what kind of presentations they will be doing at London? I am sure there will be talks and possibly feeding time. Do we know they won't do public training? Personally I would prefer tigers were not involved in shows as such so am not sure I can agree with this criticism of the plans, although direct links to conservation would be good.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
Paignton's Small Mammal House
No luck with the photos of Bulu and Gambira in the cage, I'm afraid. All I can remember is that it was busy and there wasn't a lot of light - maybe that's why I didn't take a photo.
Tell me, am I imagining it or was the inside for the Orangutans in that cage two little specially-made raised cages on concrete bases, not the ordinary barred wooden floored cage, but there was no sign of these afterwards when the Mandrills were in there.
No luck with the photos of Bulu and Gambira in the cage, I'm afraid. All I can remember is that it was busy and there wasn't a lot of light - maybe that's why I didn't take a photo.
@Tuanta
I think we broadly agree. London zoo is poor with few average to good exhibits. Nothing outstanding. It would be good for a smaller town, but for a capital city with long traditions of zookeeping it is just puny.
@John Dineley
I don't know what you describe as schooling penguins. Flock swimming together in a pack during feeding? Is it uncommon? I never paid special attention to it, but think I saw it in at least two zoos where penguins are fed in water (not by hand).
I think we broadly agree. London zoo is poor with few average to good exhibits. Nothing outstanding. It would be good for a smaller town, but for a capital city with long traditions of zookeeping it is just puny.
@John Dineley
I don't know what you describe as schooling penguins. Flock swimming together in a pack during feeding? Is it uncommon? I never paid special attention to it, but think I saw it in at least two zoos where penguins are fed in water (not by hand).
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Blimey! That's a bit harsh. I get as frustrated by London as the next man-with-a-taste-for-a-vast-collection-of-unusual-beasts, but a poor zoo? Really? On the contrary, I'd say it was pretty decent now - which, given the state it was in ten years ago, is quiet something. The good points about the zoo have been rehearsed, several times, elsewhere: the penguin pool is very good, as are the reptile and invertebrate houses; the aquarium is looking better now than for a long time; the Clore (though not what it once was) is, as a house for small mammals, as good as anything in non-German Europe; there's a fair amount that is fine - African ungulates, Bird House, children's zoo. And I can't say that anything there is embarrassing, with the possible exception of the tiger enclosure (current, not future!). And that is to say nothing about Gorilla Kingdom, about which a variety of opinions are available. Add in the wonderful historic architecture, a sense that as a visitor attraction it's in better shape now than it has been for a long while (decent cafe; staff who seem more switched on to the need to be nice; good shop), and it's not a bad zoo at all.
Good for a smaller town? By UK standards (not high, admittedly), this is a tad unfair - how many smaller towns can boast a zoo even coming close to London? Chester, maybe; Edinburgh, probably; Belfast, perhaps. In Germany - Zoo Country Number One - the very good zoos in smaller towns - Augsburg, Heidelberg, Wuppertal, for example - though I love them dearly - and in some ways, prefer them to London - they can't really compare, can they? So London's not a Berlin, a Rotterdam, a Vienna, a Prague. But if it's not at the top of the Premier League, it's in the group just outside - an Everton, perhaps, to the Manchester Utds, Citys and Tottenhams of Berlin et al.