Pros and cons of animals in captivity

K

kiwipo

Well-Known Member
Chip posted

I know all about saving animals from human cruelty worldwide,and given the record of Human rights in China, I wouldnt give a hope in hell`s chance of any captured human being rescued from China, never mind an animal.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that the reason all or any of the animals are kept in zoos, is so they can be released back into the wild when things "get better"?
That reminds me of the pictures on the front of a Jehovas Witness book !
 
kiwipo said:
Chip posted

I know all about saving animals from human cruelty worldwide,and given the record of Human rights in China, I wouldnt give a hope in hell`s chance of any captured human being rescued from China, never mind an animal.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that the reason all or any of the animals are kept in zoos, is so they can be released back into the wild when things "get better"?
That reminds me of the pictures on the front of a Jehovas Witness book !
Click to expand...

I think you should have added that this thread is continued
from the "Elephant kills keeper " thread,
 
kiwipo said:
Chip posted

I know all about saving animals from human cruelty worldwide,and given the record of Human rights in China, I wouldnt give a hope in hell`s chance of any captured human being rescued from China, never mind an animal.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that the reason all or any of the animals are kept in zoos, is so they can be released back into the wild when things "get better"?
That reminds me of the pictures on the front of a Jehovas Witness book !
Click to expand...

In reply to Chip,

Having spoken to many anti zoo people, no I don't expect you to believe any zoo is any good for animals.

The aim of zoos involved in conservation is to maintain a world wide genetically diverse population of rare and endangered animals, thus if the population in the wild goes extinct, we won't have lost the entire species off the planet.

There are many examples where this has proven to be successful.

One example is the Pere David Deer, the only wild specimens were killed off in China in 1900, making them extinct in the wild.

However there were a few in captivity in various zoos in Europe.
These were gathered together, and a substantial captive herd was bred.
In 1985 Pere David Deer were reintroduced in their native China, where several herds remain today. if those deer in China again became extinct, they still have animals in other parts of the world.

The Jersey Zoo, formed by Gerald Durrell, has had good sucess in breeding and reintroducing animals to the wild.

Chins actually has an animal rights and protection movement, it is small, but does have some success. there are Chinese animal lovers as well.

But as I say, I don't expect you to change your mind set, anti captivity proponents can be the most determined people possible, even to the extent of being dangerous and violent, as has been proven in the UK.

I could never imagine the minds of people who are willing to injure or kill people in order to release animals from captivity could be changed.
 
Combined effort of zoos worldwide to reintroduce przewalskis horse back in to the wild also comes to mind
 
Having visited Jersey, I am well aware of the zoo you mentioned.

No way do I condone the actions of the idiot animal activists you mentioned, in fact I witnessed the consequences of their actions by seeing a mink taking a moorhen at the bottom of my garden.

I applaud your belief in China animal activists.

Is this the same China that accepts the LIVE skinning of dogs?

And America saved them for what reason?
www.texashuntlodge.com

TO SHOOT THEM FOR FUN


SHOOT A PERE DAVID DEER FOR ONLY $5500...WHAT A BARGAIN

Here is an example of the menu from a conservation setup, [it makes me sick]..............
Aoudad - $2950
Axis - Male $2500 Female $350 (when hunting a trophy)
Blackbuck - Male $2000
Blesbuck Male - $5000
Buffalo - $4000
Dybowski Sika Male -$1750
Eland - $3950
Elk - Male $1000 to $10,500
Fallow standard $2500
Fallow elite $3500
Gemsbok - $5500
Ibex hybrid (YO Ibex) - $2000
Impala Male $4500
Mouflon - $2500
Nilgai - $3500
Nubian Ibex - $8500
Red Sheep - $3500
Red Stag - Male $3500 to $20,000
Zebra Male - $3750......YES, A ZEBRA


ISNT THAT CLEVER?

I would rather see them extinct than have them used for fun shooting [often in the name of conservation]

Like I said..........IN MY OPINION.......I would rather see animals extinct than debased to the levels you can witness in the World today.


I am not a member of any cranky groups as you seem to imply, but merely accept that man has done irrepairable damage to the rest of the animal kingdom, damage that cant be undone by "conservationists" no matter what you think.
 
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chip said:
I would rather see them extinct than have them used for fun shooting [often in the name of conservation]

Like I said..........IN MY OPINION.......I would rather see animals extinct than debased to the levels you can witness in the World today.


I am not a member of any cranky groups as you seem to imply, but merely accept that man has done irrepairable damage to the rest of the animal kingdom, damage that cant be undone by "conservationists" no matter what you think.
Click to expand...

I doubt the cranky groups would have you,although their feelings about allowing extinction before sustainable use,would be completly consistent with your views, they are savy enough to hide behind the conservation banner.

I completly dissagree with your views about conservation, but applaud your honesty in admiting your an animal liberationist & not a conservationist.Thank you for highlighting that animal liberation cannot be consistent with conservatioon & in fact undermines it.

Cheers Khakibob
 
chip said:
I am not a member of any cranky groups as you seem to imply, but merely accept that man has done irrepairable damage to the rest of the animal kingdom, damage that cant be undone by "conservationists" no matter what you think.
Click to expand...

We each struggle with hope and despair if we are awake enough to think about it at all.

Despair is the easier road as it requires no further action from us.
Hope, on the other hand, requires courage and invites involvement

It is a choice we make where we want to stand.
 
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Brum said:
And Arabian oryx...
Click to expand...

Oh and red pandas . . . and white rhino. the australian insurance population of tasmanian devils, which costs millions each year to maintain yet the public doesnt even see in most cases. regents honey eater, malleefowl, corroboree frog, lord howe island stick insect and thats just three aussie zoo organisations.
 
chip said:
I applaud your belief in China animal activists.

Is this the same China that accepts the LIVE skinning of dogs?
Click to expand...

1. Are there not wildlife defenders and abusers in every country?

2. Given Chinese history and tradition, these Chinese conservationists might be considered especially courageous. How much backbone does it take to protest the hunt in the UK after all? Or to type a rant on a Forum for people who already love animals? :rolleyes:
 
Zooplantman said:
1. Are there not wildlife defenders and abusers in every country?

2. Given Chinese history and tradition, these Chinese conservationists might be considered especially courageous. How much backbone does it take to protest the hunt in the UK after all? Or to type a rant on a Forum for people who already love animals? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

It wasnt a rant.
I have no hesitation in voicing my opinion to fox hunters.

Which chinese conservationists are these?

Nobody chooses to answer the question about the Pere David Deer that have been saved only to be made available as canon fodder for trigger happy Americans and there sons and daughters, for only $5,500 per kill. [novices welcome, use all kinds of weapons!]
I am confused where that fits in.

They have been saved, see the following quote:
One example is the Pere David Deer, the only wild specimens were killed off in China in 1900, making them extinct in the wild.

However there were a few in captivity in various zoos in Europe.
These were gathered together, and a substantial captive herd was bred.
In 1985 Pere David Deer were reintroduced in their native China, where several herds remain today. if those deer in China again became extinct, they still have animals in other parts of the world.
 
Zooplantman said:
1. Are there not wildlife defenders and abusers in every country?

2. Given Chinese history and tradition, these Chinese conservationists might be considered especially courageous. How much backbone does it take to protest the hunt in the UK after all? Or to type a rant on a Forum for people who already love animals? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Not all Chinese live in China, there are plenty that live in the free world but I dont see them voicing an opinion to help all the mistreaded animals back in their beloved homeland.
 
Sometimes, the best way to save a species is to put a value on it. In this case a trophy fee. I will give you the case that I know the best, the Mountain Nyala. Most zoo enthusiasts know that there are no mountain Nyalas in captivity, and only 2 have ever been held. However, the Ethiopian government allows limited hunting of this endangered animal. There are 5 licensed hunters in the entire country who act as guides for wealthy hunters. They are allowed a finite number of animals (various accounts have said either 1 or 5 animals). Each animal taken as a trophy cost $100,000. All of this money goes towards the governments conservation programs. This does not include any fees or expenditures of the hunter to the local governments/economies during their stay. This limited hunting has huge conservation advantages in protecting the habitat and the animals. With some animals, like those on Texas hunting ranches, this scenario of in situ hunting simply isn't available, so an ex situ arrangement exists.

If you take a look at animals like Scimitar-Horned Oryx, Addax, Arabian Oryx, and Addra Gazelle, the bulk of the world's population lies well protected on Texan hunting ranches. In order to support these large herds, a small percentage of older males are offered up to hunters at a fairly high price. It's from these ranch populations that wild populations are able to be restocked, not from zoos. Zoos aren't able to keep large herds of any species.

If you really think that a species should go extinct as opposed to be managed healthily though a system that allows limited hunting, then wouldn't you be the one debasing the world's biodiversity?
 
jbnbsn99 said:
Sometimes, the best way to save a species is to put a value on it. In this case a trophy fee. I will give you the case that I know the best, the Mountain Nyala. Most zoo enthusiasts know that there are no mountain Nyalas in captivity, and only 2 have ever been held. However, the Ethiopian government allows limited hunting of this endangered animal. There are 5 licensed hunters in the entire country who act as guides for wealthy hunters. They are allowed a finite number of animals (various accounts have said either 1 or 5 animals). Each animal taken as a trophy cost $100,000. All of this money goes towards the governments conservation programs. This does not include any fees or expenditures of the hunter to the local governments/economies during their stay. This limited hunting has huge conservation advantages in protecting the habitat and the animals. With some animals, like those on Texas hunting ranches, this scenario of in situ hunting simply isn't available, so an ex situ arrangement exists.

If you take a look at animals like Scimitar-Horned Oryx, Addax, Arabian Oryx, and Addra Gazelle, the bulk of the world's population lies well protected on Texan hunting ranches. In order to support these large herds, a small percentage of older males are offered up to hunters at a fairly high price. It's from these ranch populations that wild populations are able to be restocked, not from zoos. Zoos aren't able to keep large herds of any species.

If you really think that a species should go extinct as opposed to be managed healthily though a system that allows limited hunting, then wouldn't you be the one debasing the world's biodiversity?[/QUOTE

I bet the animals think thats a worthy cause!

I cant believe its happening.
and you think its good!.............Good God help us.
Click to expand...
 
When thinking about conservation, one has to think about the whole population, not the individual animal. What's different about humans hunting an animal versus say a lion hunting them? If I were the animal, I would prefer the human method of a quick shot as opposed to the disemboweling done by a big cat.
 
I was going to keep out of this but I have to ask,Chip given that you seem to be so anti-zoo,why did you get intouch with Chester Zoo with a view for them to be able sell your pictures at no cost to themselves?

Because from where I'm sitting I cannot make any sense of YOU!!!!
 
chip said:
Having visited Jersey, I am well aware of the zoo you mentioned.

No way do I condone the actions of the idiot animal activists you mentioned, in fact I witnessed the consequences of their actions by seeing a mink taking a moorhen at the bottom of my garden.

I applaud your belief in China animal activists.

Is this the same China that accepts the LIVE skinning of dogs?

And America saved them for what reason?
Texas Hunt Lodge - Texas Exotic Hunts - Texas Whitetail Hunts - Elk Hunts - Kerrville, Texas - Texas Hunting Lodge

TO SHOOT THEM FOR FUN


SHOOT A PERE DAVID DEER FOR ONLY $5500...WHAT A BARGAIN

Here is an example of the menu from a conservation setup, [it makes me sick]..............
Aoudad - $2950
Axis - Male $2500 Female $350 (when hunting a trophy)
Blackbuck - Male $2000
Blesbuck Male - $5000
Buffalo - $4000
Dybowski Sika Male -$1750
Eland - $3950
Elk - Male $1000 to $10,500
Fallow standard $2500
Fallow elite $3500
Gemsbok - $5500
Ibex hybrid (YO Ibex) - $2000
Impala Male $4500
Mouflon - $2500
Nilgai - $3500
Nubian Ibex - $8500
Red Sheep - $3500
Red Stag - Male $3500 to $20,000
Zebra Male - $3750......YES, A ZEBRA


ISNT THAT CLEVER?

I would rather see them extinct than have them used for fun shooting [often in the name of conservation]

Like I said..........IN MY OPINION.......I would rather see animals extinct than debased to the levels you can witness in the World today.


I am not a member of any cranky groups as you seem to imply, but merely accept that man has done irrepairable damage to the rest of the animal kingdom, damage that cant be undone by "conservationists" no matter what you think.
Click to expand...

You have a very valid concern with the canned hunts. That is a shameful industry. This is where there is a gray area in my opinion about zoos. While I do think they are valuable for conservation to prevent and animal from going extinct and to provide specimens for reintroductions, the animals bred in zoos should only be used for that purpose. They should not end up on canned hunts, in circuses, or as pets. This is where I see a potential problem with surplus animals in zoos. I would hope that zoos do their best to make sure offspring are housed in AZA or similarly accredited facilities in other parts of the world. Even though I do have these concerns, I will always be in support of zoos.
 
zoogiraffe said:
I was going to keep out of this but I have to ask,Chip given that you seem to be so anti-zoo,why did you get intouch with Chester Zoo with a view for them to be able sell your pictures at no cost to themselves?

Because from where I'm sitting I cannot make any sense of YOU!!!!
Click to expand...

Well it shows you how wrong you can get!

They where not my pictures I assure you !
[maybe you should have kept out of it until you got your facts right]

ps
I take it you approve of Zebra shooting then?
 
chip said:
Well it shows you how wrong you can get!

They where not my pictures I assure you !
[maybe you should have kept out of it until you got your facts right]

ps
I take it you approve of Zebra shooting then?
Click to expand...
Well in that case you should have made youself clear in the Chester thread then!!

Because now Chip I'm 100% sure you have a CHIP on your shoulder,over something that I really don't care about,so its goodbye from me!!
 
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