were either of the original pair(Baron & Christina) still alive then? The male lived the longer and was always in a regulation cage in the Ape House.
Gorilla Design
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were either of the original pair(Baron & Christina) still alive then? The male lived the longer and was always in a regulation cage in the Ape House.
I hope Stuart doesn't mind if we hi-jack his thread for a little while
These photos have never been published before (they aren't that good - Gaf500 film was just for the amateur). I agree with you about Stefi (even if we aren't sure how to spell his name). My favourite photo of him was posted in Desmond Morris's book 'Men and Apes' - Head Keeper Stemmler (I think) was crouching beside him and they were giving each other a polite kiss. I'm not sure that even John Aspinall did that to a gorilla!
I have the book about the Columbus gorillas that you mention, I'll have to look for the family likenesses - but my own family will testify that I'm pretty hopeless at that sort of thing ('cousin A has grandma B's nose'
I just never get it).I visited Basel in '72 and '73, when the gorillas were in two groups, Stefi and Achilla with Quarta (and perhaps Migger) on the left of the Ape House, and then Pepe and Goma with baby Tamtam (fathered by Jambo, who had just been sent to Jersey) and I think the other female, Kati. This second group in the right hand indoor enclosure which had a little triangular concrete outdoor cage as well. I saw the old Bird House cages where they lived previously. They were indeed small, but quite high and held a very active group of black and white ruffed lemurs - which were unusual zoo animals at that time.
Alan
I've seen it spelled as Stephi, Steffi & Stefi... That is an amazing photo in 'Men & Apes'- I would estimate he's about 11 years old there- he must have been a very gentle male, yet not badly humanised... that is Karl Stemmler in the photo too. I've seen other photos of Stefi in the original cages and he was pretty fat(lack of exercise) but that all changed after the move into the new house...(increased stress caused a rapid weight loss initially, the first time I saw them he was very 'slim', almost gaunt.)
Basel's Achilla with Quarta was the first time I'd ever seen a baby gorilla with its mother (!) including suckling or riding on her back. Quarta was about two then, Migger five, Jambo nine, Goma adult. Stephi definately did not tolerate 'Pepe' in the group and on later visits, as you saw, he lived seperately with Goma (for whom he was originally obtained as a playmate*) The unrelated 'Kati' never raised a baby successfully and so has no offspring- she is still alive along with Goma as the oldest females in their current group.
'TamTam' now lives at Wuppertal- he looks identical to Jambo but oddly, despite a perfect background, he has never bred there. 'Migger' turned into a stunning-looking male(more so than Jambo)- sadly he didn't live a very long life after he moved to La Palmyre in France, where two of his sons still live.
That tiny outdoor cage at Basel was built on later after the house was complete. Its been the ONLY outside cage the Gorillas have had all this time up until now.
The Columbus Book- there is actually only one GENUINE picture of 'Baron'-page 28, ALL the others labelled him are not him, they are of Millie/Christina... Compare the(genuine) ones of 'Colo' on Pages 75 or 77 with Stefi and you should see the remarkable facial likeness.
I have a couple of others of Baron/Christina as adults & one of all three(including Stefi) together in one photo. Have you seen the Nat Geo film 'Gorilla' (circa 1980's)? The adult 'Baron' appears in several shots of that too, as a typical 'zoo gorilla in cage' with a curious audience of people- though his identity is never mentioned.
* Did you know that Goma's first companion wasn't Pepe but a slightly older male called 'Kulu' who turned out to be too large and rough for her- so he went to Howletts where he later became Aspinall's very first silverback. Sadly 'Kulu' died in his prime aged about 12 and before he could breed- his death set them back ten years with breeding, until they were able to get 'Kisoro' from Chicago. I never saw 'Kulu' as by my first visit he was already dead and I've only ever seen one photo of him- on a poem Aspinall wrote about his death...
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yes, weren't they. I remember them at Basel. The first one I saw in the Uk was at London- presented by David Attenborough. It lived alone for many years in the Clore Pavilion, before they finally got a 'Red' male for it and they produced a hybrid- coloured young.
BTW, about design.
Why gorilla cages (and those of many other animals) don't have dead leaves as substrate? It is most natural. In temperate climates you get lots of these in autumn. Some parasitic problems, or rot, or just nobody thought about it?
It is one detail which differs between all zoos and wild exhibits. You don't get grass in rainforest.
Why gorilla cages (and those of many other animals) don't have dead leaves as substrate? It is most natural. In temperate climates you get lots of these in autumn. Some parasitic problems, or rot, or just nobody thought about it?
It is one detail which differs between all zoos and wild exhibits. You don't get grass in rainforest.
HI Pertinax,
My interest in Gorillas is not really to do with the individual animals. There enclosures and how they respond to them is what fascinates me. So l would have no idea about Baron & Christina I am sorry to say.
I could go on forever about how creative the keepers were at Columbus. There ideas on feeding and enrichment. I have never seen since such comprehensive work like they were doing with natural remedies for the ailments of there gorillas.
I can however tell you a little about Melbourne zoo's gorillas.
Rigo has been with the entire Melbourne group for the past 6 months. At first he spent allot of time sleeping!! He is now showing signs of sexual interest in the females.
His introduction was very gradual. Using the old gorilla, orang and chimp exhibit areas.
He really is one of the finest specims of gorillas, l have ever encountered. I have not seen him throwing feaces for several years now. Probably his most problematic problem l believe for the purpose of exhibit.
Yes G-Anne has only 1 hand. Seems to have adapted without any problems.
The Gorilla Exhibit, when first opened was without any enrichment devices. That did not appear to be from there natural environment. The Zoo policy seems to have changed and now there is allot of great enrichment tools in there for them.
Personally l belive that we have a trully world standard gorilla exhibit. Just wish they would cover it all over to allow for 3 dimensional use!
Hope you are haveing a good day.
Stuart
My interest in Gorillas is not really to do with the individual animals. There enclosures and how they respond to them is what fascinates me. So l would have no idea about Baron & Christina I am sorry to say.
I could go on forever about how creative the keepers were at Columbus. There ideas on feeding and enrichment. I have never seen since such comprehensive work like they were doing with natural remedies for the ailments of there gorillas.
I can however tell you a little about Melbourne zoo's gorillas.
Rigo has been with the entire Melbourne group for the past 6 months. At first he spent allot of time sleeping!! He is now showing signs of sexual interest in the females.
His introduction was very gradual. Using the old gorilla, orang and chimp exhibit areas.
He really is one of the finest specims of gorillas, l have ever encountered. I have not seen him throwing feaces for several years now. Probably his most problematic problem l believe for the purpose of exhibit.
Yes G-Anne has only 1 hand. Seems to have adapted without any problems.
The Gorilla Exhibit, when first opened was without any enrichment devices. That did not appear to be from there natural environment. The Zoo policy seems to have changed and now there is allot of great enrichment tools in there for them.
Personally l belive that we have a trully world standard gorilla exhibit. Just wish they would cover it all over to allow for 3 dimensional use!
Hope you are haveing a good day.
Stuart
Hi Jurek7 could not agree with you more.
Antwerp that has introduced meerkats into the gorilla enclosure. This has solved the problem of mice in the gorilla’s enclosure. Requiring some adjustments to the enclosure.
The idea of placing deep litter including. Dead leaves, bark or straw. Usually is followed with the response it encourages mice and all there associated problems.
So the Gorillas at Antwerp win in so many ways.
They get to forage as they would in the wild.
All the associated interaction that goes with foraging and finding the great finds. As hopefully distributed by the keepers.
The stimulation of having meerkat's in there enclosure.
All of the above and many more reasons associated with deep litter. Create a more attractive exhibit. That hopefully further enhancing the visitor experience. So that they return more regularly and bring there friends. Contributing more $$ to the zoo. To further enhance there exhibits.
All this from 2 excess meerkats!
Meerkat reference from Gorilla Gazette may 2008. Page 69
U have to love Jane's commitment!
Stuart
Antwerp that has introduced meerkats into the gorilla enclosure. This has solved the problem of mice in the gorilla’s enclosure. Requiring some adjustments to the enclosure.
The idea of placing deep litter including. Dead leaves, bark or straw. Usually is followed with the response it encourages mice and all there associated problems.
So the Gorillas at Antwerp win in so many ways.
They get to forage as they would in the wild.
All the associated interaction that goes with foraging and finding the great finds. As hopefully distributed by the keepers.
The stimulation of having meerkat's in there enclosure.
All of the above and many more reasons associated with deep litter. Create a more attractive exhibit. That hopefully further enhancing the visitor experience. So that they return more regularly and bring there friends. Contributing more $$ to the zoo. To further enhance there exhibits.
All this from 2 excess meerkats!
Meerkat reference from Gorilla Gazette may 2008. Page 69
U have to love Jane's commitment!
Stuart
Everyone has a slightly different interest of course- I find all these different spheres of interest in gorillas(or any animal species) tend to link up and provide even more information for us.
My very first post on this forum was about Rigo and the situation at Melbourne. Last I heard they were considering AI but from what you say maybe they won't have to if he starts mating. During the introductory phase, do you know which females Rigo was put with first, or was it the whole group at once after seeing them in neighbouring cages in the indoor areas? Also do you know which female(s) is he is starting to showing some interest in now?
Melbourne's enclosure has improved a lot since the trees grew giving them more shade and cover- it looks very natural really and the mulch-type flooring is quite similar to a rainforest floor in some ways. I can't see they'll ever cover it over though it would be brilliant if they could!
G. Anne lost her hand at Jersey- it had to be amputated after she had a bad reaction to a sedative drug they were testing before she was shipped to Melbourne. From seeing her at Melbourne, it seems most visitors don't even notice she has a hand missing.
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So what type of substrate do they use at Antwerp now? Is it in both indoor and outdoor areas, or just the outdoors?
Yes, it was, except it has a grass floor, not straw litter which is possibly the single most important component of the design.
Columbus had great problems getting any of their gorillas to mother-rear their babies, even 20 years after the first birth. Aspinall said he couldn't understand this, though it was evident why- the earliest babies were all handraised and the animals weren't in a social grouping- no females ever saw any mother -rearing or handled other babies, creating a 'vicious circle' of more abandoned babies. They finally managed to break this cycle but despite being the first zoo in the World to ever breed a gorilla, when it came to management and social groupings, Columbus fell way behind a lot of other zoos for many years.
Aspinall also sold Columbus a 'breeding' male- 'Mumbah'- who turned out to be a complete non-breeder at Columbus! Mumbah is 'supposed' to have an offspring or two at Howletts but I think Aspinall knew he was suspect which is why he let him go...
MARK
Well-Known Member
Yes you are right it was a grass floor I do have a Gorllia book I picked up in North America with photos of the exhibit. Also it says the former head of the zoo went over to see the Gorllias at Howletts.
Mumbah was exported to the US and Howletts imported a breeding male from a east coast zoo which gave them a boost they needed in there breeding program.
Mumbah was exported to the US and Howletts imported a breeding male from a east coast zoo which gave them a boost they needed in there breeding program.
'Kisoro' was Howlett's very first breeding male(after the catastrophe with the first male 'Kulu' ten years previously -see previous post). The next up-coming male in the Howlett's original group was 'Gugis' but he never bred though he mated the females- they believe he was infertile and he was a bit of a 'psycho'(an aggressive male) anyway. So they were really stuck with four prime 'ready to breed' females yet no breeding male .
'Kisoro' came from Lincoln Park, Chicago. He was put with the main group of females and breeding quickly started after that. The first baby 'Kijo' is currently their oldest group male. 'Mumbah' was the baby in the original group and then lived with 'Djoum'(male) & 'Mushie'(female)- he later left for the USA(well after Kisoro's arrival) because they didn't need him and there were no batchelor groups then.
The problems surrounding starting the Gorillas breeding were well described in a Biography about John Aspinall called 'A Passion to protect' , the chapter is aptly entitled 'The Coming of Kisoro'
1.Kijo- first gorilla ever born at Howletts(Kisoro x Juju)
2.Kifu. - first son of Kijo( as above) x Founa(wildcaught female)
3.Koulliou(I can never spell it right.) Handraised wildcaught orphan but breeds okay despite being humanised/orientated.
4. Djanghou- newest breeding male(Djala x Sangha) all his females were born at Howletts in other groups, so whole group is Howletts-bred.
5. Djala- wildcaught- head of Port Lympne breeding group.
They also just recently sent three more handraised babies back to Africa to link up with some 'native' orphans for eventual release.
HI Pertinax, Artis zoo only uses the deep litter in the indoor enclosure. Using a bark and dirt composite. I have not spoken with keepers at this zoo regarding the deep litter. Only going by what l have seen.
Once again l wish l could tell you the names of the gorillas that Rigo is interested in sexually. I just would not know there names. I could point them out to you if we were both at the enclosure!
As you mentioned it is our common interest in zoos and animals that we have in common. Not individual passions.
All the best.
Stuart
Once again l wish l could tell you the names of the gorillas that Rigo is interested in sexually. I just would not know there names. I could point them out to you if we were both at the enclosure!
As you mentioned it is our common interest in zoos and animals that we have in common. Not individual passions.
All the best.
Stuart
In your first post about this you said Antwerp, not Artis. I guess you meant Artis though? I've seen their enclosure- its okay but not specially good in my opinion- the indoor bark floor is a good idea though- its also used at Givskud(Denmark) and in London's new Gorilla Kingdom indoor area too, probably at a number of others too e.g. Jersey.
Apenhuel's outdoor island is probably the best Gorilla enclosure I've ever seen, but the inside was a very basic design of house and the large group must be stuck in there a lot during winter. I believe its now been/being redesigned though.